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Longest Cable run?


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138 replies to this topic

#51 OFFLINE   Herdfan

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 07:33 AM

Don't mean to hijack, but since it is on topic:

A friend of mine has a "barn" where he works on classic cars. The barn is about 250-300' from his house and he has a run of burial rated RG6 (not sure if CCS or SC). With a D13 receiver, he gets most channels fine, but has issues with the music channels. He is running a SWM system, but not sure which (LNB or -8), nor am I sure how many splitters are in the system.

I am puzzled by why he can get most channels, but not the music channels, which is what he really wants so he can listen while working.

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#52 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:27 AM

Don't mean to hijack, but since it is on topic:

A friend of mine has a "barn" where he works on classic cars. The barn is about 250-300' from his house and he has a run of burial rated RG6 (not sure if CCS or SC). With a D13 receiver, he gets most channels fine, but has issues with the music channels. He is running a SWM system, but not sure which (LNB or -8), nor am I sure how many splitters are in the system.

I am puzzled by why he can get most channels, but not the music channels, which is what he really wants so he can listen while working.

You'd need to post a bunch more info to even start to get an idea, but "my guess" is he's right at the limit so weaker TPs aren't working, while the stronger ones are.
A.K.A VOS

#53 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:36 AM

You'd need to post a bunch more info to even start to get an idea, but "my guess" is he's right at the limit so weaker TPs aren't working, while the stronger ones are.

At least he need to post a picture with signal levels of 101W on that D13.

#54 OFFLINE   Herdfan

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:41 AM

I need to go over and look. This is all based on what he told me last night.

#55 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:32 AM

You'd need to post a bunch more info to even start to get an idea, but "my guess" is he's right at the limit so weaker TPs aren't working, while the stronger ones are.


Let me help,

The cable is underground and the EZ listening channels are afraid to go down in the dirt and dark. So blast through with a Led Zepplin or Miles Davis to clear things out. They can cut through anything. Then let Kenny G bring it!

Joe:rolleyes:

OR he could get an 18" dish, bypass the UG run and bring the sounds to a garage receiver. Electrons are whores; they don't care how they get there.

Edited by joe diamond, 05 June 2011 - 10:42 AM.
typo....couldn't spell Kenney's last name


#56 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:14 AM

You'd need to post a bunch more info to even start to get an idea, but "my guess" is he's right at the limit so weaker TPs aren't working, while the stronger ones are.

What does downlink signal strength have to do with SWiM IF signal strength?

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#57 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:29 AM

What does downlink signal strength have to do with SWiM IF signal strength?

Why do you keep replying to ANY of my posts, since YOU KNOW you're on my ignore list????

As to your ##^$ question, should you ever have this hardware, you might have a ###$ clue how it works.

A weak SAT signal will only get amplified by about 15 dB out of the SWiM, so the cable/splitter losses between the SWiM and receiver could easily work for the stronger SAT signals and not for the weaker ones if the losses are close to or at the limits.

Now back to you being @#%% ignored. :flaiming
A.K.A VOS

#58 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:36 AM

The relatively weaker transponders will have a lower S/N coming out of the SWM, even if the SWM's AGC makes them all equal in intermediate frequency signal strength, so, all other things being equal, those transponders that start out weak will be the first to fail to be reliably decoded as distribution attenuation brings them all down to the putative input threshold of the receiver.

I suppose it is also possible that less forward error correction bandwidth is allocated to the music transponder, if it has its own transponder

#59 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 12:25 PM

Is this receiver a H/HR24?
If so, you can run tests on the DECA by pressing the guide & > "buttons" [both at the same time on the front panel].
The menu that shows has "coax" and there are two tests: level & PHY MESH.
Post the two test screen numbers and it will help to know how your DECA is working.


The receiver is an H24. I will run the test and post the results the next time I am at my in-laws.

I am hoping that everyone is wrong about the first amplifier not solving the problem since it is on order from Solid Signal. I wonder why they excluded the DECA frequencies? Would amplified DECA frequencies cause problems?

Will the second amplifier that I posted made by Sonora work?

There is already a powerline adapter near the H24 that a blu-ray is hooked up to. It is the model from Monoprice that I posted earlier. Unfortunately, it only has one output and therefor I will need a switch. I will try to get a DECA Blocker Filter and explore that option. Should I connect the DECA Blocker Filter near the splitter in the attic or near the H24?

I would love to run cat 5 or 6 to the H24 but my in-laws have a two story house and there is no practical way to run the wire without cutting sheet rock.

Any advise regarding this problem is greatly appreciated.

#60 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 12:41 PM

The receiver is an H24. I will run the test and post the results the next time I am at my in-laws.

I am hoping that everyone is wrong about the first amplifier not solving the problem since it is on order from Solid Signal. I wonder why they excluded the DECA frequencies? Would amplified DECA frequencies cause problems?

Will the second amplifier that I posted made by Sonora work?

There is already a powerline adapter near the H24 that a blu-ray is hooked up to. It is the model from Monoprice that I posted earlier. Unfortunately, it only has one output and therefor I will need a switch. I will try to get a DECA Blocker Filter and explore that option. Should I connect the DECA Blocker Filter near the splitter in the attic or near the H24?

I would love to run cat 5 or 6 to the H24 but my in-laws have a two story house and there is no practical way to run the wire without cutting sheet rock.

Any advise regarding this problem is greatly appreciated.

Both amps won't work with DECA, so I don't know why you've ordered one. :confused:
Before you start throwing "crap" at the problem, use the tests of the 24s to "know" if you have a problem.

You've got a coax with about 10 dB of loss, but DECAs have 50+ dB of range.
A.K.A VOS

#61 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 01:00 PM

Both amps won't work with DECA, so I don't know why you've ordered one. :confused:
Before you start throwing "crap" at the problem, use the tests of the 24s to "know" if you have a problem.

You've got a coax with about 10 dB of loss, but DECAs have 50+ dB of range.


The order was placed before I posted in this thread. I posted my problem before on DBS Talk in another thread but never received a reply back. Since the only H24 having DECA problems is the one in the bedroom that has a very long run I figured an amplifier specifically made for SWM may help. I asked others via telephone and they told me it may solve the problem.

If you call that throwing crap at a problem then I guess that is what I have done. Why will the other amp not work? I am not an engineer and I did not sleep at a Holliday Inn Select last night.

#62 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 01:17 PM

The order was placed before I posted in this thread. I posted my problem before on DBS Talk in another thread but never received a reply back. Since the only H24 having DECA problems is the one in the bedroom that has a very long run I figured an amplifier specifically made for SWM may help. I asked others via telephone and they told me it may solve the problem.

If you call that throwing crap at a problem then I guess that is what I have done. Why will the other amp not work? I am not an engineer and I did not sleep at a Holliday Inn Select last night.

This amp would help if this receiver was getting 771 errors for the SAT signals.
These amps are made for SWiM only. They have compensation for cable loss over frequency, so there is no gain at the lower and more at the upper.
DECA is below all SWiM frequencies and may not even pass "backwards" through these amps.

Here's a graph to give you some idea of the losses:

http://www.dbstalk.c...=1&d=1307301358

As I hope you can see, there is less loss for DECA than for the SAT signals.

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#63 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 02:57 PM

This amp would help if this receiver was getting 771 errors for the SAT signals.
These amps are made for SWiM only. They have compensation for cable loss over frequency, so there is no gain at the lower and more at the upper.
DECA is below all SWiM frequencies and may not even pass "backwards" through these amps.

Here's a graph to give you some idea of the losses:

http://www.dbstalk.c...=1&d=1307301358

As I hope you can see, there is less loss for DECA than for the SAT signals.


Thanks.

#64 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 05:41 PM

Is this receiver a H/HR24?
If so, you can run tests on the DECA by pressing the guide & > "buttons" [both at the same time on the front panel].
The menu that shows has "coax" and there are two tests: level & PHY MESH.
Post the two test screen numbers and it will help to know how your DECA is working.


The results are:

0 N/A
1 43
2 62
3 47
4 38

Dropped Session Count 0.

There is some more information as well which involves NODE followed by a lot of letters and numbers. I will post that as well if it is important.

The Whole House DVR works in the bedroom (the long run H24) but then it loses the connection after several minutes. The other H24s that have shorter cable runs maintain a good connection.

#65 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 05:48 PM

The results are:

0 N/A
1 43
2 62
3 47
4 38

Dropped Session Count 0.

There is some more information as well which involves NODE followed by a lot of letters and numbers. I will post that as well if it is important.

The Whole House DVR works in the bedroom (the long run H24) but then it loses the connection after several minutes. The other H24s that have shorter cable runs maintain a good connection.

That 62 is signs of too much loss.
The "letters & numbers" are the DECA MAC addresses, which are listed on them. This is helpful to know which is which.
What type of splitter do you have?
If it isn't the type with a green label, then changing it will get better signals.
A.K.A VOS

#66 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:02 PM

That 62 is signs of too much loss.
The "letters & numbers" are the DECA MAC addresses, which are listed on them. This is helpful to know which is which.
What type of splitter do you have?
If it isn't the type with a green label, then changing it will get better signals.


I believe from memory that this is the splitter in the attic:

http://www.solidsign...ku=874409002084

I believe from memory this is what is powering it:

http://www.solidsign...)&c=Multiswitch Power Supplies&sku=874409000844

#67 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:09 PM

I believe from memory that this is the splitter in the attic:

http://www.solidsign...ku=874409002084

I believe from memory this is what is powering it:

http://www.solidsign...)&c=Multiswitch Power Supplies&sku=874409000844

The PI isn't a problem.
I hope your memory isn't correct and you have this instead:
http://www.solidsign...Amplifiers&sku=

These number [losses] are fairly high and one is too much.
1 43
2 62 <----
3 47
4 38
The limit is 60 and above 60 the bit rates start to drop off. I know from actually testing this.
The non green splitters have about 25 dB loss for DECA, where the green ones have been modified, where the 8-way is only 14 dB.
Since you're not having SAT signal issues, this really suggests you have the wrong splitter.
A.K.A VOS

#68 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:11 PM

It appears that this one has more power:

http://www.solidsign...)&c=Multiswitch Power Supplies&sku=

Would this solve the problem?

#69 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:16 PM

It appears that this one has more power:

http://www.solidsign...)&c=Multiswitch Power Supplies&sku=

Would this solve the problem?

Nope. SWiM & DECA are completely separate of each other.

You seem to be looking for a SWiM solution to a DECA problem, which isn't going to have any affect.

You REALLY need to check out the splitter.
A.K.A VOS

#70 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:17 PM

The PI isn't a problem.
I hope your memory isn't correct and you have this instead:
http://www.solidsign...Amplifiers&sku=

These number [losses] are fairly high and one is too much.
1 43
2 62 <----
3 47
4 38
The limit is 60 and above 60 the bit rates start to drop off. I know from actually testing this.
The non green splitters have about 25 dB loss for DECA, where the green ones have been modified, where the 8-way is only 14 dB.
Since you're not having SAT signal issues, this really suggests you have the wrong splitter.


I am fairly certain I have the splitter with the green label. Could I have a bad splitter? I am also using a splitter to hook up the DECA to the HR24 in the den. I believe this is the splitter I am using for the DECA to the HR24:

http://www.idealindu...tters&l3=85-332

Edited by geaux tigers, 05 June 2011 - 06:23 PM.


#71 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:26 PM

I am fairly certain I have the splitter with the green label. Could I have a bad splitter. I am also using a splitter to hook up the DECA to the HR24 in the den.

You know which receiver is where, but I don't. :lol:
You don't want to have 200' of coax off an 8-way AND THEN use another splitter downstream, but I'd guess you aren't or the SWiM would be giving you problems.

Any splitter can be bad, but they're damn near bulletproof.

"The thing is" from what you've posted, the wrong splitter makes the most sense.

I see you edited and added that splitter. That one is good for SAT signals but since DECA passes between outputs, is the type with 25 dB loss, where a 2-way green splitter is only 8 dB.
A.K.A VOS

#72 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:30 PM

You know which receiver is where, but I don't. :lol:
You don't want to have 200' of coax off an 8-way AND THEN use another splitter downstream, but I'd guess you aren't or the SWiM would be giving you problems.

Any splitter can be bad, but they're damn near bulletproof.

"The thing is" from what you've posted, the wrong splitter makes the most sense.

I see you edited and added that splitter. That one is good for SAT signals but since DECA passes between outputs, is the type with 25 dB loss, where a 2-way green splitter is only 8 dB.


Is the two way splitter OK? I have my DECA unit hooked up to the input and the I have one end going to the HR24 and the other end going back to the splitter if my memory is correct. Additionally, why are two of the ports on the SWM 8 switch red? I am only using the red input on the side of the SWM 8 switch and am not using the other red port. All ports that are not being used have a cap on them. The red port does not have a cap on it.

Edited by geaux tigers, 05 June 2011 - 06:36 PM.


#73 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:39 PM

Is the two way splitter OK? I have my DECA unit hooked up to the input and the I have one end going to the HR24 and the other end going back to the splitter if my memory is correct. Additionally, why are two of the ports on the SWM 8 switch red? I am only using the red input on the side of the SWM 8 switch and am not using the other red port. All ports that are not being used have a cap on them.

Sounds like you've got it connected BACKWARDS.
Input should go to the "other splitter" and the DECA should be on an output with the receiver on the other. Is this your BB DECA connection?
If not, why are you having a DECA & the HR24???
The red ports are the power [DC] passing ones, so if you connect the PI through it, you need to use the red ports. Otherwise they're just like the other ports [if you're not using the PI].
A.K.A VOS

#74 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:51 PM

Sounds like you've got it connected BACKWARDS.
Input should go to the "other splitter" and the DECA should be on an output with the receiver on the other. Is this your BB DECA connection?
If not, why are you having a DECA & the HR24???
The red ports are the power [DC] passing ones, so if you connect the PI through it, you need to use the red ports. Otherwise they're just like the other ports [if you're not using the PI].


I may have it hooked up backwards. Would it still be working if I had it hooked up backwards? The HR24 is by the internet connection and that is why I have it split by the HR24. I should also let you know that I have the DECA connected to a powerline adapter. I would prefer to have it connected directly into the modem but the modem is not close to any RG6 cable and there is no way to run cat 5 / 6 to the DECA without ripping apart the house.

Why does it have two red ports though? Would you ever hook up two power inserters to a single switch. I did put a cap over the red port one time and I lost the signal and quickly took the cap off. Why did that happen?

Edited by geaux tigers, 05 June 2011 - 07:02 PM.


#75 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:58 PM

I may have it hooked up backwards. Would it still be working if I had it hooked up backwards? The HR24 is by the internet connection and that is why I have it split by the HR24. I should also let you know that I have the DECA connected to a powerline adapter. I would prefer to have it connected directly into the modem but the modem is not close to any RG6 cable and there is no way to run cat 5 / 6 to the DECA without ripping apart the house.

"Well" if you do have it connected backwards AND this HR24 is where you ran the test earlier, "then" this explains almost everything. The Splitter being backwards would add about 20 dB to your readings.

The powerline isn't the problem, as this would only affect your network/internet.

Make sure the input goes to the other splitter and then the extra loss of this splitter would only be between the BB DECA and the HR24, which isn't a big deal because they so close [short coax].
A.K.A VOS




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