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Longest Cable run?


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138 replies to this topic

#81 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 07:53 PM

Thanks, I will check the connections when I go back to my in-laws.

Just curious regarding the other question. Why does the SWM 8 splitter have two PI ports? Would you ever run two PI to a SWM 8 splitter. Additionally, why did I lose the signal when I put a terminal cap on the red PI output / input of the SWM 8 splitter. Thanks.

The input of the splitter is red, and so is output #1. This is for using a PI with a splitter between it and the SWiM.
You can't/would never use 2 PIs.
If you connected a termination to a port that had DC, it shorts out the DC and the SWiM loses power.
Since you look to have had "problems" with splitters being backwards, you might want to check the "other splitter" to make sure the input goes to the dish/SWiM.
A.K.A VOS

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#82 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:13 PM

If we can step back for a bit.

How many total receivers and type are at this location?
Is there a broadband deca making the connection to the internet? (I assume there is from the talk of powerline adapters)
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#83 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:19 PM

The input / outputs on the other splitter I am confident are hooked up correctly. This is a SWM 3 LNB hooked up to SWM 8 splitter. There is one HR24 and three H24s running from the splitter. A broadband DECA hooked up through a powerline adapter is making the connection.

#84 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:22 PM

The input / outputs on the other splitter I am confident are hooked up correctly. This is SWM 3 LNB hooked up to SWM 8 splitter. There is one HR24 and three H24s running from the splitter. A broadband DECA hooked up through a powerline adapter is making the connection.


In that case, I'd replace that 8 way splitter with a green labeled 4 way. Assuming no other issues, that should resolve the problem.
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#85 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:32 PM

In that case, I'd replace that 8 way splitter with a green labeled 4 way. Assuming no other issues, that should resolve the problem.


The splitter is a green labeled one. The two way splitter from the DECA may be hooked up incorrectly.

Edited by geaux tigers, 05 June 2011 - 08:47 PM.


#86 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:50 PM

In that case, I'd replace that 8 way splitter with a green labeled 4 way. Assuming no other issues, that should resolve the problem.

"But" this hasn't ever been a 771 issue.
It looks like the HR24 was using a 2-way non green splitter to connect AND was connected backwards, so the SWiM signal came in an output, bounced/reflected off the BB DECA [on the splitter input] and got to the HR24 with about 7 dB of loss, while the DECA out of the HR24 had to pass through the isolation of the splitter [22 dB loss] to get to the other receivers, hence the 62 reading from the H24 at the end of the long coax run.
A.K.A VOS

#87 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:23 PM

"But" this hasn't ever been a 771 issue.
It looks like the HR24 was using a 2-way non green splitter to connect AND was connected backwards, so the SWiM signal came in an output, bounced/reflected off the BB DECA [on the splitter input] and got to the HR24 with about 7 dB of loss, while the DECA out of the HR24 had to pass through the isolation of the splitter [22 dB loss] to get to the other receivers, hence the 62 reading from the H24 at the end of the long coax run.


Where can I get a two way green labeled splitter? Would that help things?

#88 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:59 PM

Why do you keep replying to ANY of my posts, since YOU KNOW you're on my ignore list????

Because being on your ignore list hasn't changed much other than you missing out on my posts that aren't addressed to you.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#89 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:24 PM

Where can I get a two way green labeled splitter? Would that help things?

Solid signal sells them "but" where you're using the one you have isn't going to be a real problem "if" it's connected correctly.
As you saw in your test, the losses are in the 40s or so and the path that this splitter "isn't best for" has such short coax that it doesn't matter.
A.K.A VOS

#90 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:29 PM

Because being on your ignore list hasn't changed much other than you missing out on my posts that aren't addressed to you.

Then @###$%@# stop quoting me and asking questions.
I could care less about your posts, and I let others do what they may, but when you quote my post, you're directing it at me aren't you? Which should be a big :nono: :nono: :nono:
You know so little about RF and have over the years proved you have no intention of learning, so I've given up on your nonsense.
A.K.A VOS

#91 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 06:42 AM

"But" this hasn't ever been a 771 issue.
It looks like the HR24 was using a 2-way non green splitter to connect AND was connected backwards, so the SWiM signal came in an output, bounced/reflected off the BB DECA [on the splitter input] and got to the HR24 with about 7 dB of loss, while the DECA out of the HR24 had to pass through the isolation of the splitter [22 dB loss] to get to the other receivers, hence the 62 reading from the H24 at the end of the long coax run.


I understand that. But after going through all of that at the HR, the signal still needs to go back through the 8 way on its way to the troubled H. However, I do agree that the 2 way behind the HR should be replaced with a green 2 way and correctly oriented, the 8 way should also be swapped for a 4 way.
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#92 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 06:47 AM

I understand that. But after going through all of that at the HR, the signal still needs to go back through the 8 way on its way to the troubled H. However, I do agree that the 2 way behind the HR should be replaced with a green 2 way and correctly oriented, the 8 way should also be swapped for a 4 way.

I'd guess every reader here knows how much a hate 8-way splitters. :lol:
In most cases, they add loss without need for it.

For geaux tigers the optimum setup would be these:
http://www.solidsign... Splitters&sku=
and
http://www.solidsign...ku=874409002404

The 4-way would increase the SAT signal for the receiver on the long run and the green 2-way splitter would make a service call easier as everything should be "DECA approved", which the current 2-way isn't.

Edited by veryoldschool, 06 June 2011 - 06:59 AM.

A.K.A VOS

#93 OFFLINE   lugnutathome

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 12:26 PM

It's not that what he's described won't work but the DTV residential service arm typically doesn't have all the goodies required to make it so. My sig line describes what it takes to have over 150 ft of line from dish to SWM. I also have an in line signal booster off one arm of my SWM16 to push signal out to a 191,148,128, and 100ft drops from that SWM's SWM1 4way splitter.

Consider having someone paid properly for such excess do the work or do it yourself. I've found Jonathan at Sonora Designs to be an ideal sounding board and engineer such that after my professional install, I've been able to embellish and restructure pieces of my infrastructure successfully and reliably.

DTV has a standard demographic residence target and anything beyond that scope really requires a low voltage specialist familiar with DTV or a local AV specialty house that also does DTV install work along with custom AV installs.

I do not envy the DTV residential installer's job a bit, they bust their butts and hopefully make a reasonable wage in a workday duration they can tolerate. Frequently they appear to be overworked and underpaid for what they must do.

Once a proper infrastructure is in place they can align "peak" the dish and install/configure the receivers but you have to have a bit of G2 on the infrastructure pieces as there will be points in the infrastructure beyond their training or equipment on hand to service.

Lots of good resources here on this site to help you along. Just getting the wires in place is the big piece. The rest could be done using online retailers and the knowledge users here.

Don "it's a bit frustrating being the square peg but once set up, it's all good" Bolton


If it's 150-160 feet to the closest IRD, another 10-20 for loops, up the pole, and other assorted loss, and then another 50-75 to the other 2, there isn't much chance that your going to get a *D installer to put it in.

There is a very real chance that if I were to put your system in, and then it doesn't work and you have to cancel because your not serviceable, I would end up paying your ETF, or the fine the HSP pays.

with MRV, on a SWiM the top end cable run for a do it right and it's 'going to work' installs is 150 feet total. that counts every inch of cable, from the lnb, through the drip loops, to the back of the IRD.

Yes, there are people that have 'one off' installs that go 200-300-400 feet. problem is they are one off's that are not supported.

If i were to roll up on a 200-300+ foot run to IRD's with FF/PIX or mrv issues for the problem, i'm going to bounce the call as not serviceable and be on my merry way. It's out of spec, out of my control and i'm not going to kill myself trying to fix it, and put my name on a system that might never work perfect and I don't care how many times you say your 'ok' with working 'good' it's not going to happen.

Unfortunately, your in private dealer land. both for your install, and for service.


What's a dazzling urbanite like you doing in a rustic setting like this?


#94 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 12:46 PM

I'd guess every reader here knows how much a hate 8-way splitters. :lol:
In most cases, they add loss without need for it.

For geaux tigers the optimum setup would be these:
http://www.solidsign... Splitters&sku=
and
http://www.solidsign...ku=874409002404

The 4-way would increase the SAT signal for the receiver on the long run and the green 2-way splitter would make a service call easier as everything should be "DECA approved", which the current 2-way isn't.


I appreciate all of the advise from everyone. However, my in-laws have 1 HR24 and three H24s. Therefore I believe that is a total of 5 SWM streams and a SWM 4 Splitter would be one stream short. I realize that I only physically have 4 RG6 lines but am I correct given the nature of SWM. Thanks.

#95 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 12:59 PM

I appreciate all of the advise from everyone. However, my in-laws have 1 HR24 and three H24s. Therefore I believe that is a total of 5 SWM streams and a SWM 4 Splitter would be one stream short. I realize that I only physically have 4 RG6 lines but am I correct given the nature of SWM. Thanks.


Huh?????? The number of tuners you are using has absolutely no impact on the number of ports the splitter needs. The only thing that matters is the number of coax cables you need (one for each receiver wheter it's a regular receiver or DVR).

If you are only hooking up those 4 receivers then you only need a 4 way splitter. The only reason you might need a bigger splitter would be if you were adding a broadband DECA also. And even if you were doing that you could just add a 2 way splitter after the 4 way splitter to add it.

OK, I just went back and re-read everything and it seems like their may be some real issues with how you have things hooked up. First of all where is your Power Inserter located? Is it before the 8 way splitter? If not then the red port on your power inserter needs to be hooked up to the read out port on your splitter, and the red in port should be hooked up to the line coming from your dish.

The next issue seems to be that you are using an 8 way splitter, but you are only using 4 of the out ports, is that correct? If so then you need to replace it with a 4 way splitter.

Finally, it sounds like you are hooking up a DECA broadband adapter and your HR24 to the 2 way Ideal splitter you linked to before. If that is the case it may be worth replacing that splitter with a green label 2 way splitter from SolidSignal.

I think you may not understand the difference between a SWM splitter, and a SWM multiswitch. The SWM multiswitch is where you have the limit of the number of tuners that can be hooked up to it. A SWM 5 multiswitch supports 5 tuners, SWM 8 multiswitch supports 8 tuners, SWM 16 supports 16, etc. The SWM multiswitches take 4 lines in from a standard LNB, and then have 2 outputs which you then use splitters on to supply your receivers. A SWM LNB just has one output line that goes to a SWM splitter then out to your receivers.

The SWM splitters are just splitters and have absolutely no impact on the number of tuners you can use. You want to use as few, and as small of splitters as you can to hook up all of your devices to maximize your signal.

Edited by Beerstalker, 06 June 2011 - 01:19 PM.

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#96 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 01:24 PM

I appreciate all of the advise from everyone. However, my in-laws have 1 HR24 and three H24s. Therefore I believe that is a total of 5 SWM streams and a SWM 4 Splitter would be one stream short. I realize that I only physically have 4 RG6 lines but am I correct given the nature of SWM. Thanks.

As I see Beerstalker has said, the splitter has nothing to do with how many channels it passes.
ALL OUTPUTS of ANY splitter pass all the frequencies, or it wouldn't be a splitter. It would be a diplexer or something like it.

The links to the splitters I posted are for the "best option" for your/their setup, for the reasons I posted.
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#97 OFFLINE   geaux tigers

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:03 AM

I appreciate everyone’s help. Solid Signal and Sonora are recommending this amplifier to solve the problem:

http://www.solidsign....mplifiers&sku=

I am not saying they are correct, I am just telling you what they recommend. The original representative at Solid Signal told me he thought the amplifier I have on order from Conversions Technology might solve the problem. I wish I had spoken to the more knowledgeable DirecTV technician with them before I placed my order. Here is amplifier on order to refresh everyone’s memory:

http://www.solidsign....iswitches&sku=

When that amplifier comes I will go over to my in-laws and double check my connections concerning the two way splitter. They also told me that a termination cap on the red output should not affect the signal. However, I know that I lost the signal after I put a termination cap on it. Someone else told me that the red cap is where the DECA connection should be made to the splitter. Is this true as I currently have that port open and nothing is connected to it. Should I be using this port?

I am trying to get a 4 way and 2 way green labeled splitters as I am open to that solution as well. I have contacted the vendor that I bought the system from hoping that they will send these items to me since they benefited from the contract from DirecTV as an independent distributor.

I understand what you are saying regarding the difference between a mutiswitch and a splitter. Let me ask this question, what is the maximum number of receivers that can be hooked to a single line SWM LNB or is there a maximum number? I am using a 3LNB SWM. Additionally, if anything above 60 is a bad number then what is a good number for the acceptable range? What do the numbers represent? Thanks.

Edited by geaux tigers, 07 June 2011 - 12:27 PM.


#98 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:18 AM

I appreciate everyones help. Solid Signal and Sonora are recomending this amplifier to solve the problem:

http://www.solidsign...Amplifiers&sku=

I am not saying they are correct, I am just telling you what they recomend. The original representative at Solid Signal told me he thought the amplifier I have on order from Conversions Technology might solve the problem:

http://www.solidsign...tiswitches&sku=

When that amplifier comes I will go over to my in-laws and double check my connections concerning the two way splitter. They also told me that the a termination cap on the red output should not affect the signal. However, I know that I lost the signal after I put a termination cap on it. Someone else told me that the red cap is where the DECA connection should be made to the splitter. Is thius true as I currently have that port open and nothing is connected to it. Should I be using this port?

I am trying to get a 4 way and 2 way green labeled splitters as I am open to that solution as well. I have contacted the vendor that I bought the system from hoping that they will send these items to me since they benefited from the contract from DirecTV as an independant distributor.

You are getting some bad info from Sonora. Read this for their amp: http://manuals.solid...cifications.pdf

The most important line is:
http://www.dbstalk.c...=1&d=1307466808

DECA is bi-directional so this amp would need to be before the first splitter to allow the DECA signal to work.
This also means it wouldn't do ANYTHING to help your DECA problem.
By changing the 8-way splitter to a 4-way, "in essence" you've just shortened the coax by 50', which would achieve about 25-50% of what the amp would do.

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#99 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:34 AM

I appreciate everyones help. . Thanks.

Let me try to sum up what you've posted:
You have a problem not with SAT reception [SWiM] but with MRV/DECA.
You've found the coax test shows you've got too much loss to one location.
You've posted that a 2-way splitter seems to be connected backwards on the HR24.
This is causing the high loss on the DECA, but not any problems for the SAT signals to the HR24.

You seem to continue to look for SWiM/SAT signal solutions for the DECA problem, when they won't help.
The simplest/easiest thing to do is to connect the 2-way splitter correctly.
Then re-run the coax test again and see if they're all below the 60 dB limit.
Changing splitters to the 4-way & green 2-way, will not realy change anything with the DECA, but the 4-way will boost the SAT signal levels to all receivers, so rainfade will be less.
A.K.A VOS

#100 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:42 AM

I understand what you are saying regarding the diffrence between a mutiswitch and a splitter. Let me ask this question, what is the maximum number of receivers that can be hooked to a single line SWM LNB or is there a maximum number. I am using a 3LNB SWM. Additionally, if anything above 60 is a bad number then what is a good number of the acceptable range? What do the numbers represent. Thanks.

SWiMs are based on eight tuners. This doesn't matter if they're a SWM8, or SWiMLNB.
The SWiM-16, & SWiM-32 are still based on eight tuners, but these have more outputs [16 has 2 & 32 has 4].
The "60" has to do with DECA and anything below 60 means the signal is "within the dynamic range" to work. This is kind of a "go no go" thing, just like digital TV, where once you have enough signal, it isn't going to get any better with more signal.
Once you've got the levels/losses within range, then the next thing is to run the PHY MESH test on the next page, which you're looking at the bit-rates between nodes. This measures the "quality" of the DECA signals.
A.K.A VOS




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