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Guide still screwed up..


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#1 OFFLINE   n3ntj

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 01:35 PM

I, like others, have been asking about this problem for a long time. Either Tribune, or D*, or the networks are dropping the ball. The fact that most shows aren't properly labeled as 1st run or repeat in the guide, although many still show OAD, I am guessing the blame is not on the networks. I have approx. 35 Series Links set to record only 1st run, but I repeatedly end up getting new and repeats recorded.

When will Tribune/D* fix this guide issue with 1st run/repeats guide data? This has been running badly for at least a year.

Edited by n3ntj, 20 October 2010 - 01:36 PM.

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#2 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 01:39 PM

I, like others, have been asking about this problem for a long time. Either Tribune, or D*, or the networks are dropping the ball. The fact that most shows aren't properly labeled as 1st run or repeat in the guide, although many still show OAD, I am guessing the blame is not on the networks. I have approx. 35 Series Links set to record only 1st run, but I repeatedly end up getting new and repeats recorded.

When will Tribune/D* fix this guide issue with 1st run/repeats guide data? This has been running badly for at least a year.


Examples of recent ones?
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#3 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 01:40 PM

When will Tribune/D* fix this guide issue with 1st run/repeats guide data?


Sorry but not in my lifetime or yours either.

Apparently, it is not a Big Deal to Directv because they are well aware of it and could code around it like TIVO has done but they refuse to do so.

Edited by Richierich, 20 October 2010 - 01:40 PM.

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#4 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 05:27 PM

Sorry but not in my lifetime or yours either.

Apparently, it is not a Big Deal to Directv because they are well aware of it and could code around it like TIVO has done but they refuse to do so.


GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out

Even TIVO's work around, isn't perfect.
(I can recall several instances where things were a first run in the US, but the guide data had the OAD from another country... TIVO didn't record either)

The SOURCE of the issue, is the content providers/channels.
If they would take the few extra minutes to properly code their data, instead of fudging with it or sending generics... there would be no need for work arounds.

So, I ask again... Example of a recent show? That isn't working the way you expect it to?

Edited by Earl Bonovich, 20 October 2010 - 05:27 PM.

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#5 OFFLINE   Hookem

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 06:31 PM

I have an example for you Earl. On Saturday mornings on Fox Business, the Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano show is on as a first run. It repeats again that evening, and then again two more times on Sunday evening/night.

I've read that any show that airs more than once on the first run day will automatically record all airings as first runs on that day, but in this case, my HR24 will also record both shows on Sunday evening/night.

The only way around this that I've found is the Manual Recording option.

#6 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:01 PM

I have an example for you Earl. On Saturday mornings on Fox Business, the Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano show is on as a first run. It repeats again that evening, and then again two more times on Sunday evening/night.

I've read that any show that airs more than once on the first run day will automatically record all airings as first runs on that day, but in this case, my HR24 will also record both shows on Sunday evening/night.

The only way around this that I've found is the Manual Recording option.



This again is typically a case of GIGO.

Looking at your example: Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano
I wish I could post specifics, but I can't, so I will do my best to explain...

Take a look at the guide data that is displayed to you for this show. Look at the four airings that that you mentioned. Notice any difference about them? You shouldn't because they are identical, except for their air time.

What piece of data, should the DVR use to identify which is the real first airing, and which is the repeat?

Compare it to a show that air's twice a day, multiple times a week: Stargate Universe.... look at it's data. You can easily see the difference between shows. It is EASY to identify which shows are identical, and which ones are unique. There is also other key elements, to use when it is truely a first run vs a repeat. It is easy for the DVR to know if it recorded THAT specific episode already, that it doesn't have to again...

As for creating "rules" as work arounds, by definition a "work around" is never perfect. There will always be a corner case, that violates that work around... which requires another work around, which there will be a case, which requires another work around, and so on....

(Take my evening news for example: First run: 10pm, repeats at 1:30am... so I couldn't use a rule that says record the first airing for the day... as then I would always be one day behind.)

At the end of the day, all DVRs be it units like DIRECTV's, TiVo's, custom systems for computers... rely on the data. By the time it gets to these units, you are talking 100,000's of records (just do the math, for 14 days worth of data accross 100's of channels)... at that level... there are too many "cases" to handle.

If you have bad apples, there is nothing you can do to make Apple Pie taste perfect at the end when it is all put together.

For your example: Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano, they could take the extra time to add some additional information, and the DVRs would have no problem identifying which ones to record.

My local news channel could do the same, and it isn't a lot they would have to do.

Edited by Earl Bonovich, 20 October 2010 - 07:02 PM.

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#7 ONLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:05 PM

Yeah....agree we're all somewhat at the mercy of the "guidebuilders"...

Hopefully there is a day we all see the inaccuracies go away...whether or not I live that long is another story... :D
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#8 OFFLINE   Hookem

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:10 PM

This again is typically a case of GIGO.

Looking at your example: Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano
I wish I could post specifics, but I can't, so I will do my best to explain...

Take a look at the guide data that is displayed to you for this show. Look at the four airings that that you mentioned. Notice any difference about them? You shouldn't because they are identical, except for their air time.

What piece of data, should the DVR use to identify which is the real first airing, and which is the repeat?

Compare it to a show that air's twice a day, multiple times a week: Stargate Universe.... look at it's data. You can easily see the difference between shows. It is EASY to identify which shows are identical, and which ones are unique. There is also other key elements, to use when it is truely a first run vs a repeat. It is easy for the DVR to know if it recorded THAT specific episode already, that it doesn't have to again...

As for creating "rules" as work arounds, by definition a "work around" is never perfect. There will always be a corner case, that violates that work around... which requires another work around, which there will be a case, which requires another work around, and so on....

(Take my evening news for example: First run: 10pm, repeats at 1:30am... so I couldn't use a rule that says record the first airing for the day... as then I would always be one day behind.)

At the end of the day, all DVRs be it units like DIRECTV's, TiVo's, custom systems for computers... rely on the data. By the time it gets to these units, you are talking 100,000's of records (just do the math, for 14 days worth of data accross 100's of channels)... at that level... there are too many "cases" to handle.

If you have bad apples, there is nothing you can do to make Apple Pie taste perfect at the end when it is all put together.

For your example: Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano, they could take the extra time to add some additional information, and the DVRs would have no problem identifying which ones to record.

My local news channel could do the same, and it isn't a lot they would have to do.


Thanks for the explanation...I wasn't complaining about DirecTV, since I know they are at the mercy of the "guidebuilders", just giving another example of a channel that doesn't have correct guide info.

#9 ONLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 06:31 AM

I like the GIGO explanation as well...it really fits the situation.
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#10 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 06:49 AM

Your specific example of Fox Business is most surely a case of the network not giving a crap, not D* or Tribune can correct that....secretly, I feel these stations want your dvr to record their show 100 times a day, actually they dont want you to record it, they want you to watch it live 24/7/365 so they can claim 1 gazillion people watch their show/station daily and charge more for advertisements...

#11 OFFLINE   coolyman

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 06:49 AM

Pawn Stars on History Channel gets me every week.

#12 OFFLINE   joed32

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:08 AM

Thanks for the explanation...I wasn't complaining about DirecTV, since I know they are at the mercy of the "guidebuilders", just giving another example of a channel that doesn't have correct guide info.


I run into this all of the time with some of the sports talk shows that show more than once per day. I go to menu-manage recordings-manual and then set up a recurring manual recording for the days, channel, start and stop times. That way it only records the show once. You have to have to delete your other series setting for that show.

#13 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:23 AM

Pawn Stars on History Channel gets me every week.


Really?

I have two different DVRs set to record Pawn Stars, and it records as expected. Occasionally, History Channel has put some Pawn Stars up with generic information that gets re-recorded...
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#14 OFFLINE   Scott Kocourek

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:33 AM

I get the Pawn Stars duplicate too, but not every week. I will get one of the two new episodes that records again at 1:30am the next day. The title of the show will be the same in my list. Funny enough, it did not happen this week.

I think it happens to Locked Up Abroad more often than any other show, so I have to make sure I put the "keep" flag on the new episodes because it will record a whole days worth of episodes even if the date in the description is 2008 or 2009.

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#15 OFFLINE   DodgerKing

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:44 AM

I have an example for you Earl. On Saturday mornings on Fox Business, the Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano show is on as a first run. It repeats again that evening, and then again two more times on Sunday evening/night.

I've read that any show that airs more than once on the first run day will automatically record all airings as first runs on that day, but in this case, my HR24 will also record both shows on Sunday evening/night.

The only way around this that I've found is the Manual Recording option.

This happens on all Fox Business shows. I record Stossel on FBN (the only "news" program I record) and the same thing happens. To get around it I do a manual record of that time slot instead of the program

#16 OFFLINE   Xsabresx

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:08 AM

I get it on Nickelodeon constantly.

I record iCarly and Victorious for my daughter.

Invariably I get generic guide data for both. For iCarly I get "a young girl runs her own web show" and for Victorious I get "a girl's singing skills get her into a school for the performing arts" or something to that effect. Neither have an original air date.

It will be ok for a few weeks and I'll set the series back up to record just in time for it to be broken again so I get daily recordings of each rather than just when a new show airs.

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#17 OFFLINE   n3ntj

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 02:51 PM

Examples of recent ones?


Pawn Stars, Mythbusters, Little People Big World, How's It Made, L&O:SVU, etc.

I have these all on Series Link to record 1st Run only and each time any repeats of these are on, my HR20-700 records them. This wasn't a problem until this past winter or spring. Before that, the episodes would properly record 1st run 99% of the time. Since then, I often find most of the episodes on my HR20-700 to be repeats.

Something else strange I noticed last night (don't know if its related) but none of the shows I had set for Series Link 1st run only that should be set to record next week are showing in my To Do List. I looked at Pawn Stars, Mythbusters, L&O:SVU, 2 and a Half Men, etc. for next week and each is a new episode, however none are set to record according to my To DO list. I confirmed that each is new next week. I also checked the recording options for each and all settings looked correct.

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#18 OFFLINE   matt

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 03:28 PM

South Park is a good example.

It has recorded the same episode over and over because it is just labeled "South Park" and has a generic description.

Ugly Americans did it yesterday as well.
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#19 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 03:56 PM

Pawn Stars, Mythbusters, Little People Big World, How's It Made, L&O:SVU, etc.

I have these all on Series Link to record 1st Run only and each time any repeats of these are on, my HR20-700 records them. This wasn't a problem until this past winter or spring. Before that, the episodes would properly record 1st run 99% of the time. Since then, I often find most of the episodes on my HR20-700 to be repeats.


That is Odd.

Other then Little People Big World, I have each of those others shows recording on multiple DVRs with no issues.

Only time it has recorded "repeats", is when I look, and they are generic information. Have you tried removing the Series Link and readding it?

Your SVU, is it on NBC? Or one of the Syndicated Replays?
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#20 ONLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:03 PM

I can see that DirecTV is not the culprit here...but...

It would seem that since the Tribune Guide data is clearly inconsistent and or occasionally flawed...DirecTv could consider a flag or some kind of logic to avoid re-recording with a 28-30 day time window....or something similar.

That way, it compensates for flawed Tribune guide data.

P.S....I have not seen first-run series recordings repeat here at all.
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#21 OFFLINE   sdk009

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:04 PM

I find that problem with the Daily Show. I've set my DVR to record only first run programs. Without fail it records all of the re-runs, expecially on Monday when the guide only lists the generic description of the show.

#22 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:28 PM

If TIVO can CODE around it then I would think that DIRECTV with all of it's resources can accomplish this (and it really isn't that Big Of A Coding Deal) but let's Get Real Earl. It can be done if Directv wants to maintain their Image and 99.9% of Directv's Customers do not know that it is the Fault of Zap2It which is owned by Tribune Services.

What piece of data, should the DVR use to identify which is the real first airing, and which is the repeat?

As for creating "rules" as work arounds, by definition a "work around" is never perfect. There will always be a corner case, that violates that work around... which requires another work around, which there will be a case, which requires another work around, and so on....

(Take my evening news for example: First run: 10pm, repeats at 1:30am... so I couldn't use a rule that says record the first airing for the day... as then I would always be one day behind.)

At the end of the day, all DVRs be it units like DIRECTV's, TiVo's, custom systems for computers... rely on the data. By the time it gets to these units, you are talking 100,000's of records (just do the math, for 14 days worth of data accross 100's of channels)... at that level... there are too many "cases" to handle.

If you have bad apples, there is nothing you can do to make Apple Pie taste perfect at the end when it is all put together.

For your example: Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano, they could take the extra time to add some additional information, and the DVRs would have no problem identifying which ones to record.

My local news channel could do the same, and it isn't a lot they would have to do.


Edited by Richierich, 21 October 2010 - 04:30 PM.

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#23 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 06:52 PM

If TIVO can CODE around it then I would think that DIRECTV with all of it's resources can accomplish this (and it really isn't that Big Of A Coding Deal) but let's Get Real Earl. It can be done if Directv wants to maintain their Image and 99.9% of Directv's Customers do not know that it is the Fault of Zap2It which is owned by Tribune Services.


TiVo can (anyone can) create work arounds... but as I said earlier... work arounds are just that... a work around, they are not a fix..

And yes, it is a big coding deal once you start down that path.
You get more and more nitch cases, that expose other nitch cases...

Should we go over where TiVo fails in a lot of these cases.
I know a case, which their "work around" cost a LOT of people to miss the start of a very popular Sci-Fi Series Season...

The ROOT cause of these issues, are simply the content providers are not taking the modest amount of time to provide full data. They in many cases, are providing the absolutely minimum...

And what image is jeopardy? Because the DVR is maybe being cautious and recording more than it should? Instead of relying on a work around, which may result in a false positive?

Seriously... this is nothing new... we have been talking about it for 10 years. The providers/content owners, can very simply add a very modest amount of extra data to their program details... and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So here is a TiVo thread from earlier TODAY:
http://www.tivocommu...ad.php?t=457766

TiVo uses their infamous 28 Day Rule... Which is again, not perfect.
Why? Easy... Show was scheduled for Tonight... something pre-empted it, but TiVo didn't get the data in time.. so it records... but then on Saturday it is decided that it will re-air... guess what, it doesn't record... because it thinks it already recorded it.

-- Now that your are thinking, okay... so that is one case.

How about another? How would you build a work around, assuming all the key data fields are not available (which in most of these cases is the case)...

7:00pm - Last weeks episode replays
8:00pm - is the new one

On another channel, they flip that
7:00pm is the new one
10:00pm is last weeks replay

Which do you record, if you don't have the key fields to tell you if:
a) You have already recorded the episode
B) You don't know definitively if it is a new episode

How do you code for that scenerio?

Oh... and this thread sounds awfully similar to the issue, and the work around that has been talked about here...
http://www.tivocommu...ighlight=repeat
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#24 ONLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:46 PM

I learn something every day. ;)

Looks like we're back to finding a cure for GIGO. :D
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#25 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 06:55 AM

Thanks Earl for that Explanation as I haven't thought about all of those Scenarios which make alot of sense!!! :)
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