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Multi-Room Viewing and Static IP Addresses - Discussion

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#26 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:10 PM

While the best policy for using static IP means we set the DHCP pool to exclude the IP's we want for static assignment this is by no means a requirement.

You can assign any device to any IP you desire. The reason for the exclusion is to prevent other devices from being assigned the IP used by your device.

If we added the pool method information then you would be fine in assigning the IP's without changing the router.

Let me explain.

The NetGear routers pull address from the pool from bottom up. So we know our DHCP IP requests are not going to be assigned higher numbers until we have used up the lower blocks.

Simply knowing the method means we would be safe to assign a static IP above the usable range we expect for our network.

Router|Router IP Address|DHCP Pool Range|Assignment Method|Safe Static Rage
NetGear WNDR3700|192.168.1.1|192.168.1.2 - 192.168.1.254|UP|192.168.1.240 - 192.168.1.253
2-Wire HomePortal 1000SW|172.16.0.1|172.16.1.33 – 172.16.1.250|UP|172.168.1.240-172.168.1.253
2-Wire HomePortal 2700HG-B Gateway|192.168.1.254|192.168.1.64 - 192.168.1.253|UP|192.168.1.240 - 192.168.1.252


Like I said; you should be safe with this method. No need to modify anything on the router at all. We do not expect any DHCP requests to pull IP's from the range selected so using those IP's is as safe as excluding them. It's just not best practice but it will work.

Can't make it any easier for joe installer who does not know networking nor cares to know it. :)


On your table, how do you conclude that 240 to 253 is 'safe' ?

Other than being on the 'high' range of 1-255 and you assume the DHCP server goes from low to high? Some don't.

Fortunately or unfortunately, joe installer doesn't need to worry about this. . . plus he'd have to know different router brands, user names, passwords . . . ain't gonna happen.

Edited by dennisj00, 23 October 2010 - 06:16 PM.

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#27 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:18 PM

Agreed.

Spending to stimulate the economy as fast as the credit cards will allow!

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DLB, MRV, nomad, HDGUI are HERE! . . . We're DONE!


#28 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:42 PM

Did I say I needed 48 hours? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't get 10 mins.

I tried to play a recording via MRV and it failed.
The DVR was no longer on my list of recorders under whole home menu status.

Outside of the DHCP pool [here] is a must.

I'm back to being able to play this recording with "true" Static PIs outside of the pool. :hurah:
A.K.A VOS

#29 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 07:11 PM

Way to go VOS!!

There's something lurking in the shadows of using DHCP with H/HRs . . .it could be the timing affected by DECA, the router, or the wiring since there's been reports with wired, wireless, or DECA a true 'Static' IP is currently a good workaround.

Spending to stimulate the economy as fast as the credit cards will allow!

My Setup / Weather at Lake Norman!/ Boathouse BEES
DLB, MRV, nomad, HDGUI are HERE! . . . We're DONE!


#30 OFFLINE   dsw2112

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 07:17 PM

...While the best policy for using static IP means we set the DHCP pool to exclude the IP's we want for static assignment this is by no means a requirement....


I wouldn't agree with this -- there are potential problems with assigning a static IP within a DHCP pool. For the purposes here, most should consider this a requirement.

I like the exchange of ideas flowing here, but at some point down the road, this thread may need to be cleaned up, and posts deleted, once we've boiled this all down.
This isn't to stop the discussion, but just to let everyone know at some point this thread needs to be concise for those that are looking for and need the help.


Agreed, and in this spirit of VOS' post our advice should be to assign IP's outside of the DHCP pool. Once the DHCP pool is established a user doesn't need to "mess" with it any longer. Taking a "chance" that a static IP (inside a DHCP pool) will not be assigned by the router just isn't smart advice...

Edited by dsw2112, 23 October 2010 - 07:38 PM.

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#31 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 07:22 PM

Good summary. Assigning anything manually in the DHCP pool (except reservations that we don't like!) - is asking for problems 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months from now. . . and the further from the latest change on your network makes it much harder to find the problem!

I keep a log of any change that I do on anybody's network.

Spending to stimulate the economy as fast as the credit cards will allow!

My Setup / Weather at Lake Norman!/ Boathouse BEES
DLB, MRV, nomad, HDGUI are HERE! . . . We're DONE!


#32 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 07:40 PM

So to kind of sum up what looks to be the "simple" way so far:

look at what the receiver pulls off the router while using DHCP.

if you see xxx.64 [or higher] or xxx.100 [or higher] then select ones below, say in the xxx.040 range.

If you see xxx.033 [or higher] select ones below, say in the xxx.010 or 020 range.

If you're looking at a netgear and see xxx.00x [or higher], then you will need to have "someone" manage the router and log in to change the default DHCP pool.
Either raise the starting IP or lower the ending IP, to create a range of IPs for the receivers to use that are outside of the modified DHCP server pool.
A.K.A VOS

#33 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 07:58 PM

Yes and 'Ping' any address that you think you might use from a computer on the LAN.

No response is usually good enough to say you can use that address.

But most / all of this is way beyond what should (currently) be required of an installer.

There's just way too many variations / combinations of routers / devices out there.

Spending to stimulate the economy as fast as the credit cards will allow!

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DLB, MRV, nomad, HDGUI are HERE! . . . We're DONE!


#34 OFFLINE   The Merg

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 08:16 PM

I agree and that is why I said 'not best practice'.

Down side is tech may have to leave without the system working since neither the tech or the sub may know how to setup the router to exclude the addresses in question.

My method simply allowed setup with possible conflict that the user would then need to work out.

I guess the in the case were you have to ask the user to setup the router you would just leave if they don't know how.


You are making this too hard on the user. What I recommended was that the user check the router to see what the DHCP range is and then just set a static IP address outside that range.

It is easy to do and has been shown to be a resolution that works. The point of the this thread was to get the basic user up and working again. Please don't make this more difficult for them then it has to be.

- Merg

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#35 OFFLINE   dsw2112

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 08:22 PM

...Down side is tech may have to leave without the system working since neither the tech or the sub may know how to setup the router to exclude the addresses in question...


The D* tech isn't responsible for any of the networking configuration other than connecting a DECA to the router (if the ICK was ordered.) The advice here is really for the end user after the install is complete (or when problems arise.) MRV will work without a router, and any problems stemming from a router connection to the DECA network would be the user's responsibility.
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#36 OFFLINE   dsw2112

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 08:31 PM

In this case I am 100% in agreement. I thought we were talking initial install. :)

Initial install is a whole different problem! :eek2:


Initial install is no different -- D* techs are not trained in networking. If the tech deems the router to be "problematic" he will likely remove the ICK from the router. The receivers will auto-assign IP's and do not need a DHCP server. The customer will then need to resolve their router "issues" to enable the internet connectivity. That's why we're here :D
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#37 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 08:43 PM

Initial install is no different -- D* techs are not trained in networking. If the tech deems the router to be "problematic" he will likely remove the ICK from the router. The receivers will auto-assign IP's and do not need a DHCP server. The customer will then need to resolve their router "issues" to enable the internet connectivity. That's why we're here :D

The basic network connection is to first ask the customer to check if they have internet access. Next is to plug the ICK into their router and ask them to see if they still have internet access. If yes, done. If not, then remove the ICK connection and tell them to have a network service call by somebody like Geek Squad.

"Now" what I've trying to sort out is if a tech could handle a service call where the customer has MRV problems, yet each receiver shows it has internet access.

If most of this can be done through the receiver's network menu, then this could be well within the tech's area of responsibility/area of expertise.
While having to make changes to any router is not, knowing what to do could be given to the customer to have resolved.

"Of course" the end solution here is to have all the receivers handle DHCP for all routers properly.
A.K.A VOS

#38 OFFLINE   dsw2112

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 08:56 PM

...If most of this can be done through the receiver's network menu, then this could be well within the tech's area of responsibility/area of expertise...


That's the problem, there's not enough info in the receiver's menu to make a determination. The ideal solution would be for D* to deal with the likely DHCP lease problem the receivers have. I'm not sure if that's possible or even being looked at... At this point I don't see what the installer could/should do differently as it's just not their area of expertise. If the setup (mrv) works with the ICK disconnected then I think their responsibility effectively ends...
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#39 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:24 PM

Well, yes and no:

So to kind of sum up what looks to be the "simple" way so far:

look at what the receiver pulls off the router while using DHCP.

if you see xxx.64 [or higher] or xxx.100 [or higher] then select ones below, say in the xxx.040 range.

If you see xxx.033 [or higher] select ones below, say in the xxx.010 or 020 range.

If you're looking at a netgear and see xxx.00x [or higher], then you will need to have "someone" manage the router and log in to change the default DHCP pool.
Either raise the starting IP or lower the ending IP, to create a range of IPs for the receivers to use that are outside of the modified DHCP server pool.


A.K.A VOS

#40 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:08 AM

"Of course" the end solution here is to have all the receivers handle DHCP for all routers properly.

That would be a good thing. :D

Are we there yet? ;):nono2:

Still a work in progress on a couple fronts...but then...you already knew that. :lol:
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#41 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:28 AM

[...] this thread may need to be cleaned up, and posts deleted, once we've boiled this all down.
This isn't to stop the discussion, but just to let everyone know at some point this thread needs to be concise for those that are looking for and need the help.

Good point.
/steve

#42 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:34 AM

Good point.

Perhaps creating a discussion thread parallel to the FAQ.
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#43 OFFLINE   The Merg

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:47 AM

Perhaps creating a discussion thread parallel to the FAQ.


I was just getting ready to post that idea. I'll change the title of this thread to be a discussion and create a new one to be the FAQ.

Mods, if you could please unsticky this one and sticky the new one it would be appreciated. Also, if you can change the external title to match the new internal one.

Thanks,
Merg

Today's problems don't worry me, I haven't solved yesterday's yet.

SlimLine-3 Dish w/ SWM16 (HD Service / WHDVR) / Full Setup
HR34-700 / Panasonic TC-P50G25 HDTV / HDMI / Networked - DECA / Family Room
HR44-700 / Samsung HCM5525W HDTV / Component / Networked - DECA / Bedroom

HR24-100 / Samsung HCM5525W HDTV / Component / Networked - DECA / Bedroom


#44 OFFLINE   mikeny

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 09:25 AM

I use the D-Link DIR-825 Xtreme N Simultaneous Dual Band Gigabit Router. The router's IP is 192.168.0.1. The DHCP pool is 192.168.0.100 to 192.168.0.199.

I have 3 DVRs and a stand alone receiver with Static 'Reserved Addresses' within the pool. They never drop off the network. Whole Home DVR services (DECA/SWM connected) and DOD work consistently.

HR20-700 192.168.0.105
H21-100 192.168.0.113
HR24-500 (a) 192.168.0.120
HR24-500 (B) 192.168.0.121
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#45 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 09:31 AM

Router| Router IP Address| DHCP Pool Range
2Wire HomePortal 1000SW|172.16.0.1|172.16.1.33 – 172.16.1.250
2Wire 2700HG-B Gateway| 192.168.1.254 | 192.168.1.64 - 192.168.1.253
Linksy WRT320N | 192.168.1.1| 192.168.1.100 - 192.168.1.149
NetGear WNDR3700 | 192.168.1.1 |192.168.1.2 - 192.168.1.254
D-Link DIR-825 | 192.168.0.1 | 192.168.0.100 - 192.168.0.199

A.K.A VOS

#46 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 09:34 AM

Router|Router IP Address|DHCP Pool Range
2-Wire HomePortal 1000SW|172.16.0.1|172.16.1.33 – 172.16.1.250

I have to question/ask about this.

Is this a typo or true?
A.K.A VOS

#47 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 10:08 AM

I have to question/ask about this.

Is this a typo or true?


I didn't find this as a default on the 2-wire support site, but 172.x.x.x is another group of non-routable (internal) addresses that are typically class B.

So a mask of 255.255.0.0 would let this pool work. (the 0s in the mask mean a range of 0-255 can be used)

Edited by dennisj00, 24 October 2010 - 10:17 AM.

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DLB, MRV, nomad, HDGUI are HERE! . . . We're DONE!


#48 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 10:55 AM

I was just getting ready to post that idea. I'll change the title of this thread to be a discussion and create a new one to be the FAQ.

Mods, if you could please unsticky this one and sticky the new one it would be appreciated. Also, if you can change the external title to match the new internal one.

Thanks,
Merg

Super idea and super work on your part. Thanks.

P.S...nice work on 5K!
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#49 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:52 AM

I didn't find this as a default on the 2-wire support site, but 172.x.x.x is another group of non-routable (internal) addresses that are typically class B.

So a mask of 255.255.0.0 would let this pool work. (the 0s in the mask mean a range of 0-255 can be used)

The subnet mask used for the network typically corresponds to the class of IP address assigned, as shown
in the following table.

IP Address Class | Dotted-Decimal Notation Ranges | Corresponding Subnet Mask

Class A | 1.xxx.xxx.xxx to 126.xxx.xxx.xxx | 255.0.0.0

Class B | 128.0.xxx.xxx to 191.255.xxx.xxx | 255.255.0.0

Class C | 192.0.0.xxx to 223.255.255.xxx | 255.255.255.0

Maybe you can shed some more light on this.
Why can't my router be 192.168.1.254 and I use 192.168.2.040 ?
"Or" why can a router be 172.16.0.1 and yet can use 172.16.1.33 – 172.16.1.250?

Maybe I've answered my own question, by realizing the "0" in the subnet acts as a wildcard.

Edited by veryoldschool, 24 October 2010 - 12:00 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#50 OFFLINE   The Merg

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 12:08 PM

The subnet mask used for the network typically corresponds to the class of IP address assigned, as shown
in the following table.

IP Address Class | Dotted-Decimal Notation Ranges | Corresponding Subnet Mask

Class A | 1.xxx.xxx.xxx to 126.xxx.xxx.xxx | 255.0.0.0

Class B | 128.0.xxx.xxx to 191.255.xxx.xxx | 255.255.0.0

Class C | 192.0.0.xxx to 223.255.255.xxx | 255.255.255.0

Maybe you can shed some more light on this.
Why can't my router be 192.168.1.254 and I use 192.168.2.040 ?
"Or" why can a router be 172.16.0.1 and yet can use 172.16.1.33 – 172.16.1.250?

Maybe I've answered my own question, by realizing the "0" in the subnet acts as a wildcard.


I'd hafta look into it, but if you set your subnet mask to 255.255.0.0, then you should be able to have your router be 192.168.1.254 and use 192.168.2.040.

- Merg

Today's problems don't worry me, I haven't solved yesterday's yet.

SlimLine-3 Dish w/ SWM16 (HD Service / WHDVR) / Full Setup
HR34-700 / Panasonic TC-P50G25 HDTV / HDMI / Networked - DECA / Family Room
HR44-700 / Samsung HCM5525W HDTV / Component / Networked - DECA / Bedroom

HR24-100 / Samsung HCM5525W HDTV / Component / Networked - DECA / Bedroom





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