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Weird signal problem


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28 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:51 AM

I have had a problem the last couple months thats got me baffled so i thought i would try here for some ideas. My h/w is 1 hr20-700 and 1 h20-100 using a slimline5 with a 6x8 switch (not swm). I also want to say up front i have no problems with sats 99/103/110/119 at all and even tp's on 101 are fine too (anywhere from 85% to 99%). Heres where the fun starts... my problem is signal on odd tps on sat 101 only and only a problem on my h20-100 and tuner 2 of my hr20-700. Tuner1 is perfect at all times. Also the problem i have with the h20 and tuner 2 of the hr20 are exact same. Here is the kicker... my signal on sat 101 odd tps is either very low but watchable (40%-65%) or 0% which is unwatchable and it happens to both tuner 2 of hr20 and h20 at same time. If i have 65% on the h20 then i have 65% on tuner 2 of the hr20. If i have 0% on the h20 then i have 0% on tuner 2 of hr20. Tuner 1 of the hr20 is always great no matter what (89% on average). I would assume its not a receiver tuner problem since both got same problem at same time. I already swapped the b band convertors with no change. I inspected all my rg6 and connectors and found no problems. I even switched the connections at the switch hoping the problem would move to a different tuner but i didnt. Then yesterday i went so far as to run some new temp rg6 runs to each tuner from the switch to verify i dont have any bad cable runs since i have them buried in the ground but signal is exact same. The only thing thats left is the coax from switch to lnb and the lnb itself. If the lnb was going bad wouldnt it affect all 3 tuners all the time? Any idea before i lose all my hair? Thanks :)

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#2 ONLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 11:02 AM

Not sure you've ruled out the WB68.
It could be the switch in the LNB.
I'd use a barrel to jumper across the WB68 and test each of the four outputs of the LNB.
A.K.A VOS

#3 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 11:09 AM

Not sure you've ruled out the WB68.
It could be the switch in the LNB.
I'd use a barrel to jumper across the WB68 and test each of the four outputs of the LNB.


Thats about the only 2 things i havent ruled out. The lnb itself and the switch. If it was the switch wouldnt my problem have moved to tuner 1 since i switched the coax from each receiver at the output side of the switch?

#4 OFFLINE   jdspencer

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 11:11 AM

I'll second VOS's suggestion of bypassing the WB68.
Use the H20 to test each of the four outputs from the dish.
And then reconnect the WB68 and test each of its outputs.
DirecTV since '96, Waivers for ABC, CBS, NBC, & Fox, HR23-700 & HR24-500/AM21, using ethernet based MRV.

#5 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 12:12 PM

i get what you 2 are saying :) I do have a small portible tv and a extra h20 sitting around i could take outside to my switch and hook the h20 straight to a lnb feed and remove the switch from the curcuit. I will have to wait for the snow and ice to melt first though.

#6 OFFLINE   jdspencer

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 02:20 PM

You don't really need to take a TV outside. Just use an F/F barrel connector to bypass the switch and then use that line inside for the tests. I'd also not use the extra receiver unless it is activated as that would just put another variable into the situation.
DirecTV since '96, Waivers for ABC, CBS, NBC, & Fox, HR23-700 & HR24-500/AM21, using ethernet based MRV.

#7 OFFLINE   prestone683

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 10:20 AM

Why are you using a WB6x8 in the first place? I think I'm confused there.

But I have routinely seen 1 output on an LNB go bad, and I have seen 1 polarity on one output of an LNB go bad.

Good luck.

#8 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 11:55 AM

Why are you using a WB6x8 in the first place? I think I'm confused there.

But I have routinely seen 1 output on an LNB go bad, and I have seen 1 polarity on one output of an LNB go bad.

Good luck.


I use the switch because when i switched from a phase1 to slimline i moved where it was installed and since all my rg6 coax is buried 36 inches underground i had a splice point to deal with hence thats where the switch went :). I guess my question to you would be have you seen a lnb go bad yet work fine with 1 tuner?

#9 OFFLINE   prestone683

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:03 PM

Yes, I have seen 1 output go bad. You should have 4 lines coming 'down' or 'from' the dish. You are only using 3, from the sounds. 2 for the DVR, and 1 for the HD.

I have seen numerous times, only one receiver, or in the case of a DVR, only 1 tuner, getting good/ok/acceptable signal, vs, 0 or drop outs of some form on the other receiver/tuner.

To clarify, you used the switch as an extension of lines, because you had to move the dish for LOS reasons when you upgraded?

Those splices, or the switch, isn't underground, or anything, right?

In general, switches fail. Whenever possible, use another groundblock as a 'splice' rather than a switch.

I remember one specific service call, where the gentleman had two basic receivers.

One receiver got 'virtually' (not exact count) every other channel.

Bad LNB. LNB was a dual tuner, but would not accept the switch over on voltage. Receiver was putting out the 13 and 18 respectively, but the LNB just stopped responding. New LNB, (basic dish in this guy's case), all good to go...

Hope this helps!

#10 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:31 PM

Yes i am using the switch to extend my lines.
Yes the switch is grounded like it always has been.
No the switch and the lines from lnb to switch are all above ground....only the lines from switch to inside home are underground inside pvc.
Yes i have 4 lines from lnb to switch

I sure wish dtv would hurry and get History International, AMC and Military channels in HD then i wouldnt need sat 101 at all :)

All 3 tuners get 99 and 103 in 95%- 99% range.

#11 ONLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:40 PM

Yes i am using the switch to extend my lines.
Yes the switch is grounded like it always has been.
No the switch and the lines from lnb to switch are all above ground....only the lines from switch to inside home are underground inside pvc.
Yes i have 4 lines from lnb to switch

I sure wish dtv would hurry and get History International, AMC and Military channels in HD then i wouldnt need sat 101 at all :)

All 3 tuners get 99 and 103 in 95%- 99% range.

While you may not watch anything off 101, you'll always need 101 for the system to function, as the guide data and authorization comes through the 101 feeds.
A.K.A VOS

#12 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:42 PM

While you may not watch anything off 101, you'll always need 101 for the system to function, as the guide data and authorization comes through the 101 feeds.


I thought guide data came down from sat 119 with a slimline 5?
sat 101 with slimline 3?

#13 ONLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:45 PM

I thought guide data came down from sat 119 with a slimline 5?
sat 101 with slimline 3?

With the SL3 it always comes from 101.
With the SL5 it comes from both 101 & 119, as tuning to 99 or 103, changes which the data comes from.
A.K.A VOS

#14 OFFLINE   prestone683

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:58 PM

Yes i am using the switch to extend my lines.
Yes the switch is grounded like it always has been.
No the switch and the lines from lnb to switch are all above ground....only the lines from switch to inside home are underground inside pvc.
Yes i have 4 lines from lnb to switch

I sure wish dtv would hurry and get History International, AMC and Military channels in HD then i wouldnt need sat 101 at all :)

All 3 tuners get 99 and 103 in 95%- 99% range.


Yea, what I was specifically asking was not if it was grounded, but if the switch was IN the ground. I was going to say... That's a bad thing... To extend lines, as much as D* hates it, use a ground block, because switches do fail... Ground blocks do as well, but the life expectancy of any electrical component is way different...

@VOS: On a SL3, if you leave the receiver on a 103 channel, I've been told you can 'lock out' the receiver's ability to download guide data. Is that accurate? Possible?

I mentioned in a different post, that I had a Case Management Service call, and ISS basically told me that the guy's "Regular Show' guide data is because the box, sitting on a SL3, was being left on a 103 channel. So that apparently means when he left for work, went to sleep, he was supposed to change to a basic channel (101 bird) to ensure the box wasn't locked up on receiving guide data... Is that possible? Sure doesn't seem it.

While I'm at it, I'll add, that I've read that if you have a SL5, and say you lose LOS on the 119, just switching the Sat Setup, won't fix the guide issue. That basically, even if you tell the box you only have the SL3, it can still somehow 'sense' the 119 eye, and still attempts to download the guide from the NOLOS 119. Any ideas how that works?

Edited by prestone683, 15 January 2011 - 01:02 PM.
edit


#15 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:58 PM

With the SL3 it always comes from 101.
With the SL5 it comes from both 101 & 119, as tuning to 99 or 103, changes which the data comes from.


Well i learn something new everyday :)

I will figure this out if it kills me but just not today. Weather has to improve before i am messing with it. I figured out a work around to my problem with the hr20 by forcing it to use tuner 1. I just tell the it to record a hd channel which it then does using tuner 2, then i switch to channel 287 and watch using tuner 1 then stop the recording on tuner 2 and delete. To bad i cant to that same trick in bedroom with my h20 :(

#16 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 01:05 PM

Yea, what I was specifically asking was not if it was grounded, but if the switch was IN the ground. I was going to say... That's a bad thing... To extend lines, as much as D* hates it, use a ground block, because switches do fail... Ground blocks do as well, but the life expectancy of any electrical component is way different...

@VOS: On a SL3, if you leave the receiver on a 103 channel, I've been told you can 'lock out' the receiver's ability to download guide data. Is that accurate? Possible?

I mentioned in a different post, that I had a Case Management Service call, and ISS basically told me that the guy's "Regular Show' guide data is because the box, sitting on a SL3, was being left on a 103 channel. So that apparently means when he left for work, went to sleep, he was supposed to change to a basic channel (101 bird) to ensure the box wasn't locked up on receiving guide data... Is that possible? Sure doesn't seem it.


If the switch was bad wouldnt i have signal issues on all 3 tuners? If not wouldnt the problem change when i switched the lines at the output of switch. I switched all 3 outputs at switch hoping the problem would switch tuners but it didnt change anything. I still think i have a weak lnb. Lets say for ****s and giggles i finally figure out 100% its the lnb should i consider upgrading to swm hardware?

#17 ONLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 01:17 PM

@VOS: On a SL3, if you leave the receiver on a 103 channel, I've been told you can 'lock out' the receiver's ability to download guide data. Is that accurate? Possible?

I mentioned in a different post, that I had a Case Management Service call, and ISS basically told me that the guy's "Regular Show' guide data is because the box, sitting on a SL3, was being left on a 103 channel. So that apparently means when he left for work, went to sleep, he was supposed to change to a basic channel (101 bird) to ensure the box wasn't locked up on receiving guide data... Is that possible? Sure doesn't seem it.

While I'm at it, I'll add, that I've read that if you have a SL5, and say you lose LOS on the 119, just switching the Sat Setup, won't fix the guide issue. That basically, even if you tell the box you only have the SL3, it can still somehow 'sense' the 119 eye, and still attempts to download the guide from the NOLOS 119. Any ideas how that works?

The first part is BS.
What I think you know is the 13/18 tone/no tone is switching the 101/99 and the 119/103.
Guide data is on both 101 & 119.
There isn't anything you can set in the receiver to change this.
The SL3 has the 101 hardwired active 100%.
The SL5 doesn't, so there is nothing you can change in the receiver to make it always look at 101.
The SWiMs have access to 101 all the time, so it doesn't matter SL3 or SL5.

There is NO TRUTH to setting the receiver up for an SL3, while being connected to an SL5, and resolving guide data issues when it is tuned to the 103 channels.
A.K.A VOS

#18 OFFLINE   prestone683

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 04:40 PM

The first part is BS.
What I think you know is the 13/18 tone/no tone is switching the 101/99 and the 119/103.
Guide data is on both 101 & 119.
There isn't anything you can set in the receiver to change this.
The SL3 has the 101 hardwired active 100%.
The SL5 doesn't, so there is nothing you can change in the receiver to make it always look at 101.
The SWiMs have access to 101 all the time, so it doesn't matter SL3 or SL5.

There is NO TRUTH to setting the receiver up for an SL3, while being connected to an SL5, and resolving guide data issues when it is tuned to the 103 channels.


THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT. I told the guy from ISS this, and he's like, no... Where do you get your info from? Uh, YOUR TRAINING GUIDE?!

lol

But after someone started talking about that, it made me remember that particular job, so I thought I'd ask.



Back to the problem at hand, I believe you are going to find it is an LNB problem. It still points that the internal switch on the LNB is not flipping polarities for you.

As for why one tuner on the DVR tends to show high signals, but the other is half or less, it could be a fluke in your DVR's software. I've seen DVR's think that there is a cable on tuner one, if there is only one on tuner two. (Logical, there would be 0 signals everywhere on tuner 1, but by god, they must float through the air wirelessly or something.) :D

Upgrading to SWM? Sure, you could do that. It'd be your choice. Pull the B-Bands, swap the switch for a swm splitter, add a power inserter behind the tv someplace, and swap the LNB, making sure the line used at the LNB is the same used at the swm splitter. The other 3 are unused...

Good luck!

#19 OFFLINE   goldwing

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 09:21 AM

Well when i went to bed last night i had 49% on my odd tp's so military channel was watchable but when i got up this morning i had 0% again. Figured it was a good time to take the switch out of the circuit. No change at all and i tried all 4 outputs of the lnb. I had either 0% or mid 40%'s no matter which of the 4 i tested. Then after i put it all back to how it was with the switch i then had 45% to 60% again. I guess my next step is to replace the lnb.

p.s. I used tuner 2 of my hr20 and my h20 when i did this test just to make sure its not a receiver or b band problem.

#20 OFFLINE   prestone683

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 09:53 AM

Well when i went to bed last night i had 49% on my odd tp's so military channel was watchable but when i got up this morning i had 0% again. Figured it was a good time to take the switch out of the circuit. No change at all and i tried all 4 outputs of the lnb. I had either 0% or mid 40%'s no matter which of the 4 i tested. Then after i put it all back to how it was with the switch i then had 45% to 60% again. I guess my next step is to replace the lnb.

p.s. I used tuner 2 of my hr20 and my h20 when i did this test just to make sure its not a receiver or b band problem.


You are tending to have these problems more overnight?

Do you have replacement RG6 compression connectors? I'm starting to think it might be a suck out problem. In the cold, the wire can shrink up just enough to pull apart at the connector.

LNB still most likely. Hard to call it though....




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