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Sports Bar, Install Help Needed


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#1 OFFLINE   Exerd

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:02 AM

Hi folks.

I have some questions concerning a Directv install for a new sports bar.

My friend is having me wire the building for computer networking, audio, and also the Directv setup. The building is currently framed, but not drywalled.

I know how to do the internet and audio, but I am not familiar with the wiring setup options for Directv. He is currently waiting for my response on the matter, before he calls Directv to setup an appointment, because he wants to know if there is something which I can do for him which Directv may attempt to charge him for, or even tell him is not possible to do.

He has 7 TVs going in the area. There are 3 TVs at separate locations, and then 4 TVs all in one sports bar area. He needs the possibility of watching a different channel on every TV at once.

Now, we want to have all the receivers in one central location, basically the networking room where the switches and audio equipment will be. I am sure this is possible, but what I was not sure about is the wiring type which needs to run out of that room and to all of the TVs. He wants the highest quality of HD video signal of course. I was not sure if it must be standard coaxial cable to the TVs, or if receiver outputs are using long lengths of HDMI etc nowadays, or if that would even make sense to do.

So, question #1, what is the optimal type of video cable to run out from the main receiver room, to all of the wall jacks at each television?

Next question. What type of receiver configuration do I need to use to accomplish this setup? What I mean by that is, how many receivers will be required to power all 7 TVs on different channels? I have read about switches, but have not witnessed them used before on a satellite TV network. My friend wants to get by with using the least amount of receivers possible, if it is somehow possible to cut that number down through use of another device.

That's it for now; my basic questions at this point. Thank you

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#2 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:57 AM

Hi folks.

I have some questions concerning a Directv install for a new sports bar.

My friend is having me wire the building for computer networking, audio, and also the Directv setup. The building is currently framed, but not drywalled.

I know how to do the internet and audio, but I am not familiar with the wiring setup options for Directv. He is currently waiting for my response on the matter, before he calls Directv to setup an appointment, because he wants to know if there is something which I can do for him which Directv may attempt to charge him for, or even tell him is not possible to do.

He has 7 TVs going in the area. There are 3 TVs at separate locations, and then 4 TVs all in one sports bar area. He needs the possibility of watching a different channel on every TV at once.

Now, we want to have all the receivers in one central location, basically the networking room where the switches and audio equipment will be. I am sure this is possible, but what I was not sure about is the wiring type which needs to run out of that room and to all of the TVs. He wants the highest quality of HD video signal of course. I was not sure if it must be standard coaxial cable to the TVs, or if receiver outputs are using long lengths of HDMI etc nowadays, or if that would even make sense to do.

So, question #1, what is the optimal type of video cable to run out from the main receiver room, to all of the wall jacks at each television?

Next question. What type of receiver configuration do I need to use to accomplish this setup? What I mean by that is, how many receivers will be required to power all 7 TVs on different channels? I have read about switches, but have not witnessed them used before on a satellite TV network. My friend wants to get by with using the least amount of receivers possible, if it is somehow possible to cut that number down through use of another device.

That's it for now; my basic questions at this point. Thank you


Exerd,

Here are a few things to get you started.

With DirecTV you will need one receiver per channel. All the boxes can be located in a closet and controlled with RF remotes. Connections from the receivers to the TVs could require component cable or HDMI and or coax.....depending on your requirements. You need to decide about HD vs SD picture and if you would ever record events before ordering. This affects the choice of dishes and other equipment.

National fire codes are going in the direction of "plenum" cable. You want to discover your local requirement for this.
Rg 6 is the standard coax cable. Cat 5 or 6 is used for ethernet cable.

Any competent Home Theater company can design all this. Whoever installs the equipment should terminate the cable ends. They may even insist on running the cable so they don't have to find dings put in the cable by others.

Identifying all cables and protecting them from dings where they are run is an important consideration as is providing access for additional lines to be run in the future.

You may want to consider the possibility of running all sets on one feed. This is a splitter & switch design....or you can just select the same channel on all seven receivers.

An electrician will need your final estimate of the number of outlets for seven receivers + seven TVs plus any other accessories....audio products....perhaps a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Source)...surge protection so all this stuff is not run on the same circuits as machinery etc. The electrician will also be able to direct grounding all sources for the feeds.

I think you should take a close look at sources for all the events you plan to show. You may need to plan OTA antennae or CATV feeds to augment what the DirecTV commercial feed can supply. The emphasis here is blackout rules and what you can offer for public viewing. This varies by area.

Running the cable is not the most significant cost with what you are planning.

Joe

Edited by joe diamond, 25 January 2011 - 04:12 AM.
typo


#3 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 06:09 AM

By wanting 7 different programs at once, he'll need 7 receivers. 1 per channel.

As for locating the boxes in the server room. That will be fine. A decent HDMI cable will be sufficent from each box to each tv.
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#4 OFFLINE   Yoda-DBSguy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:53 AM

By wanting 7 different programs at once, he'll need 7 receivers. 1 per channel.

As for locating the boxes in the server room. That will be fine. A decent HDMI cable will be sufficent from each box to each tv.


Unless the bar operator wants to be able to view any of the 7 receivers/stations on any one of the 7 TV locations. If that's the case it would require them to be modulated and each mapped to a specific station basically making their own internal cable network.

#5 OFFLINE   Kevin F

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:59 AM

Unless the bar operator wants to be able to view any of the 7 receivers/stations on any one of the 7 TV locations. If that's the case it would require them to be modulated and each mapped to a specific station basically making their own internal cable network.


That may not be the way to go considering he wants HD on all the tvs.
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#6 OFFLINE   Yoda-DBSguy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:12 AM

That may not be the way to go considering he wants HD on all the tvs.


It's still possible; however expensive. They do infact have moduulators capable of distributing HD signals. Not cheap; but then again this is not for resedential use either.

#7 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:21 AM

I do lots of commercial installs, and am doing a similar install today.

Here's my take: plan on 4 RG6 coax cables coming in from the outside, likely from the roof. You don't necessarily have to run them, but you'll want a weatherhead going through the roof so the installer can run them. You already know that you're going to run them all to a central location, as you're putting all the receivers in one place (smart).

You'll want to run HDMI cables from the receivers to the TVs, as HDMI is going to be necessary going forward. Component cables are on their way out as far as being a supported connection, and coax won't do HD, for legal reasons.

Depending on your cable paths, you may need some runs that are longer than practical, and if so, you'll want some HIGH-QUALITY CAT-5-to-HDMI baluns, such as those made by Atlona. Some models will also pass IR signals, so you can put an IR "target" on the TV and an IR blaster on the receiver. That tends to be more reliable than the DirecTV RF remotes across longer distances, or in challenging environments.

http://www.atlona.com/HDMI-Extenders/

I would also recommend, if you can, running any long HDMI cables to a wallplate, and have a short HDMI jumper connecting from the wallplate to the receiver, and maybe to the TV. Long HDMI cables have to be thick, which makes them stiff and hard to route around equipment, and I've had folks try to move receivers around and break the connector off the cable. There's no fixing a broken cable, so it has to be replaced, which is difficult and expensive. If those long HDMIs terminate behind a wallplate, then all you have to replace is a cheap, easy-to-get 3' or 6' HDMI cable instead.

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#8 OFFLINE   yogi

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:55 AM


coax won't do HD, for legal reasons.


What are the legal reasons? Are you saying you can't run HD over coax?

#9 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 10:51 AM

Unless the bar operator wants to be able to view any of the 7 receivers/stations on any one of the 7 TV locations. If that's the case it would require them to be modulated and each mapped to a specific station basically making their own internal cable network.


What? :confused:

There is no need to go through all that.

1 box per tv with a HDMI cable each. Rather simple setup.
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#10 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 11:36 AM

What? :confused:

There is no need to go through all that.

1 box per tv with a HDMI cable each. Rather simple setup.


RobertE,

The operative word is Sports Bar. This is worse than any junior high school in the world. The bar tender will have to hide the remotes and lock the volume buttons. Anyone who puts money in the internet juke box (very $$$$ magnetnic) will get pitched into the parking lot. It will be about a week before some customer wants a local game not offered on DirecTV Commercial Service.

The herd will screw around with a simple system. A little flexibility could go a long way. Or I could be wrong about hockey fans and the betting public............AFTER THOUGHT = drunken football fans can be just as crazy--sorry

I do agree that the cheapest / most simple installation would treat the HD receivers like set top boxes and put one with each TV. Label the remotes and TVS. Put the remotes on the bar.


Joe

Edited by joe diamond, 25 January 2011 - 11:57 AM.
After Thought


#11 OFFLINE   kcaudiofx

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 11:44 AM

I do a LOT of custom installs and here is what I suggest.. I always prepare for the future (might cost you about an extra $40 on 7 tv's) but it will be well worth it..

Find out where you are putting the 7 receivers.. Run ONE coax from each receiver to each tv.. This will be used IF the customer ever wanted to run antenna, etc etc...

Run 3 CAT5's from each receiver to each TV.. 2 of these cat5's will be used for HDMI OVER CAT5. The Baluns are about $50 for each tv if you have a good supplier.. This will carry 1080p up to 176ft (really all depends on what type you get) and you will have one cat5 leftover for backup use, or IR Repeaters IF you ever need it.. Trust me, run it all now while its easy as pie, CAT5 is a dime a dozen, atleast where I get it at.

CAT5 over HDMI is seriously the way to go in my opinion.. anything over 15ft runs, I always use baluns.. But thats just a personal preference of mine..

Hi folks.

I have some questions concerning a Directv install for a new sports bar.

My friend is having me wire the building for computer networking, audio, and also the Directv setup. The building is currently framed, but not drywalled.

I know how to do the internet and audio, but I am not familiar with the wiring setup options for Directv. He is currently waiting for my response on the matter, before he calls Directv to setup an appointment, because he wants to know if there is something which I can do for him which Directv may attempt to charge him for, or even tell him is not possible to do.

He has 7 TVs going in the area. There are 3 TVs at separate locations, and then 4 TVs all in one sports bar area. He needs the possibility of watching a different channel on every TV at once.

Now, we want to have all the receivers in one central location, basically the networking room where the switches and audio equipment will be. I am sure this is possible, but what I was not sure about is the wiring type which needs to run out of that room and to all of the TVs. He wants the highest quality of HD video signal of course. I was not sure if it must be standard coaxial cable to the TVs, or if receiver outputs are using long lengths of HDMI etc nowadays, or if that would even make sense to do.

So, question #1, what is the optimal type of video cable to run out from the main receiver room, to all of the wall jacks at each television?

Next question. What type of receiver configuration do I need to use to accomplish this setup? What I mean by that is, how many receivers will be required to power all 7 TVs on different channels? I have read about switches, but have not witnessed them used before on a satellite TV network. My friend wants to get by with using the least amount of receivers possible, if it is somehow possible to cut that number down through use of another device.

That's it for now; my basic questions at this point. Thank you



#12 OFFLINE   cabletech

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:09 PM

Battlezone--What is not 'legal' about HD on RG6?

Exerd- What is the distance to the TV locations? Here is the way I just put in a 15 screen HD muliti channel sports bar. In the back room I put in a 'headend' system where all recievers were in a 19" rack, I then ran from that location to all TV locations, one RG6 and one cat5 to standard wall plates. In the equipment rack have all DTV recievers going to commerical demods to a combiner which all tv locations were then connected. Now, with this setup, the owner can put ANY channel on ANY tv OR all TV's on the same channel using the channel control on the TV. Doing it this way the customers can not mess with the recievers. By using the RG6 &/or cat5 with converters, you get just as good a picture as you would with HDMI for far less money. A 'good' HDMI cable longer then about 50ft will cost big$$, and I have not been able to find any over 100ft. This location has 25 channels on the system and ALL owners and customers are VERY happy with the setup. If you send me a PM at cabletech03@hotmail.com I will give you a equipment list and aprox $ to put in the system.

#13 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:50 PM

RobertE,

The operative word is Sports Bar. This is worse than any junior high school in the world. The bar tender will have to hide the remotes and lock the volume buttons. Anyone who puts money in the internet juke box (very $$$$ magnetnic) will get pitched into the parking lot. It will be about a week before some customer wants a local game not offered on DirecTV Commercial Service.

The herd will screw around with a simple system. A little flexibility could go a long way. Or I could be wrong about hockey fans and the betting public............AFTER THOUGHT = drunken football fans can be just as crazy--sorry

I do agree that the cheapest / most simple installation would treat the HD receivers like set top boxes and put one with each TV. Label the remotes and TVS. Put the remotes on the bar.


Joe


What are your rambling about?

I see some have completely ignored the OPs post. He's stated that the plan is to put the receivers in a server room. Here, I'll quote it for you.

Now, we want to have all the receivers in one central location, basically the networking room where the switches and audio equipment will be. I am sure this is possible, but what I was not sure about is the wiring type which needs to run out of that room and to all of the TVs. He wants the highest quality of HD video signal of course. I was not sure if it must be standard coaxial cable to the TVs, or if receiver outputs are using long lengths of HDMI etc nowadays, or if that would even make sense to do.


So for those that can read, the receivers will go in a secure locations out of customers reach. Now he just needs to get the output to the TV. Length appropriate HDMI cables would be the simplest solution. Next up would be Cat5/6 with HDMI blauns.

I don't see why some are making this harder than it needs to be, other than they arn't reading what the plan is or they just want to argue. :confused:
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#14 OFFLINE   cabletech

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:32 PM

RobertE Reread my earler post. I do not belive I mis read OR ignored the OP's request for information.

#15 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:58 PM

RobertE Reread my earler post. I do not belive I mis read OR ignored the OP's request for information.


You passed as did Battlezone & kcaudiofx. :) Others, not so much. :(
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#16 OFFLINE   TwoPhases

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:27 PM

Unless the bar operator wants to be able to view any of the 7 receivers/stations on any one of the 7 TV locations. If that's the case it would require them to be modulated and each mapped to a specific station basically making their own internal cable network.

I think you're over-thinking this Yoda. 1 HD/SD receiver per TV (in a central location) will allow them to watch any channel (they're subscribed to) on any TV.

#17 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:31 PM

RobertE Reread my earler post. I do not belive I mis read OR ignored the OP's request for information.


He was correctly referring to me. I ignored the part about central room.

BUT, brother Cabletech....do you splice HDMI feeds? That is 19 or more pins per fitting. You gotta be good!

Joe

#18 OFFLINE   Yoda-DBSguy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:00 PM

I think you're over-thinking this Yoda. 1 HD/SD receiver per TV (in a central location) will allow them to watch any channel (they're subscribed to) on any TV.


No, I know that senario will allow for reception of any channel that a receiver is set to to display on the TV it is connected to; however in a sports bar with an endless amount of games always playing people will be changing them often. It is much easier to change the channel to a predetermined set in house number then to figure out which tv is set to which receiver and then the station it needs ot be paced on.

For example:
HD receiver 1 is locked to ESPN and assigned to an internal station number of 30. Any staff member knows if they set any tv in the estanblishment to station 30 that it will be displaying ESPN. Otherwise I'll garentee that you'll get a multitude of staff members always asking management what 3 digit number a particular set has to be on or worse yet having management be the ones that are constantly being bothered and end up doing the channel surfing themselves.

Why this is important is for the integration of local HD OTA channels which sometimes are the ones with the rights to air the game. Of course one could just do it your way and constantly change inputs on any given TV to it's internal tuner or via an AM-21 add-on but that adds steps to the proceedure that make it more complicated with the ever changing staff usually associated with this type of industry.

#19 OFFLINE   cabletech

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:23 PM

joed-- You failed again. I DO NOT SPLICE HDMI. I do not use HDMI over 20 feet. I set up a head end and run RG6 and Cat5.

I see that YODA passed on my concept of the headend and 'all channels on all tv's at any time' .

Twophase--your way out of sink on your thinking here as a sports bar needs to be very tightly controled and 'doing it yout way' as yoda also stated, is the only way to go.

#20 OFFLINE   Exerd

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:22 PM

Okay, before I bite in to what some have said about more complex setups and begin asking questions about them, let me state what I currently see being simple and logical.

First of all, someone mentioned having someone else do the install, and about dinged cables? Let me just make it clear that I install communication systems for a living. Most of my work is for AT&T, Verizon, and Frontier. I run heavy power wire, mount gigabit router equipment, as well as run fiber optics and cat5/6 cable, and do the terminations. Running cable is what I wake up to do each day. So I'm not so worried about stringing a small run in a sports bar. ;)

Moving on, the idea I like is the simple one. Mount 7 DTV receivers on a rack in the server room. From there, 7 HDMI cables run out to each TV. When a channel is needing to be changed, someone enters the server room, picks up a numbered remote, and changes it. Or, numbered RF remotes are kept at the bar area behind the counter. Seems simple enough for me.

Now, the maximum cable distance is 80'. There are 380 total feet, a 10', 50', 4x60', and an 80'.

So, what is it, use HDMI found at a good price, or use the Cat5 with the converter devices back to HDMI heads?

What about wall jacks? Will the wall jacks possibly change depending on which one of those cables types are used? I suppose they will just be standard HDMI wall jacks either way, and the Cat5 with converter to HDMI would be behind that, inside of the wall, if that method was used. Correct?

Thanks for all of the help.




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