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blackberry vs android...

zatznotfunny

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125 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 08:38 PM

Yep, which is why Outlook is in a death spiral as well. I (and my current company) don't use it and haven't for years.

Respectfully disagree - MS Outlook has already been announced to be central to the next version of Microsoft Office....it's not going anywhere. Blackberry is committed to continue supporting that kind of e-mail integration.

Our company has over 23,000 licensed users. Already planning for the next version. Lotus Notes is the product in the death spiral...and their sales numbers support that downward slide.
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#22 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 08:41 PM

Agree fully about Lotus Notes.

As for Outlook, we'll see. If Outlook is in fact Central to the next version of Office, there's going to be a lot of people that either don't upgrade Office, or look for other options. I don't think Outlook is in as much trouble as Blackberry, but they're certainly not on the upswing.

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#23 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 08:48 PM

Maybe I should have said BESX instead of BES. For many companies, the IT policies included in BESX are all they really need. If those 35 policies do what they need, and they don't need a hot spare High Availability BES, the free BESX does everything they need. No cost for the software, no per user license fee or limit (well, there is a 75 user limit if you install it directly on an Exchange server) and no need for the more expensive data plan unless you need wireless activation.

Of course there will be companies that need the other policies or need High Availability, but there are a lot that don't. My BES only goes down during scheduled maintenance windows and my users are expecting to not get mail.


Yeah, we've got way more than 75 licenses and we need all of the security features including remote wipe.

"Belligerent and numerous."

Sometimes I update the Dish Network FAQ

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#24 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 09:11 PM

Yeah, we've got way more than 75 licenses and we need all of the security features including remote wipe.


Ok, so in that situation you wouldn't put BESX on the Exchange server, then no limit. I highly doubt you use all the IT policies. Most companies use a very small set (I think BES has about 450 total). Remote wipe works fine on BESX. You just can't do wireless activations without the BES data plan. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but quite a few BES shops have converted over to BESX, and I've seen a good number implement it as a new solution. Certainly has been more successful than BPS was.

#25 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 09:36 PM

Ok, so in that situation you wouldn't put BESX on the Exchange server, then no limit. I highly doubt you use all the IT policies. Most companies use a very small set (I think BES has about 450 total). Remote wipe works fine on BESX. You just can't do wireless activations without the BES data plan. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but quite a few BES shops have converted over to BESX, and I've seen a good number implement it as a new solution. Certainly has been more successful than BPS was.


I'm not the BES admin. Define wireless activations for me. I know right now we pay Verizon per seat for the BES licenses in addition to having to carry the BES plan on each device instead of a standard data plan.

"Belligerent and numerous."

Sometimes I update the Dish Network FAQ

AT200, Hopper & 360 via HDMI to Onkyo 505 to basement 42" Westy, Hopper via Comp-over-Cat5 to living room 42" Vizio with a Roku 3, Joey to Toshiba 32" LCD with a Logitech Revue. You want fries with that? Pull up to the 2nd window.


#26 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 11:29 PM

A one month trend is hardly a trend.

Then let's look at the 12 month trend for Blackberry:

Jan '10 43%
Apr '10 41%
Jull '10 38%
Oct '10 35%
Jan '11 30%

If that doesn't look like a powered descent, you're drinking Blackberry Koolaid.

I'm sure the new Blackberry "Apollo" and "Dakota" devices (codenames) in field testing for release in a few months will also see a "surge" in new users.

And RIM is answering with what?

No doubt the volumes can/will change over time, but for now...Blackberry owns the business user space. The Fortune 500 company I'm familiar with bans anything Apple or Android.

My company used to be entirely WinMo 6. Now it is all iOS and everyone is lusting for the huge variety of Android options.

Unless a company's IT "visionaries" have Exchange Server mastery as their sole source of job security, I'll bet everyone's wireless phone policy is under serious consideration.

I predict that neither Microsoft nor RIM will be more than bit players in five years. I have no idea what will take their respective places (or if there will even be a place for Microsofts) but it is coming.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#27 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 07:04 AM

Then let's look at the 12 month trend for Blackberry:

Jan '10 43%
Apr '10 41%
Jull '10 38%
Oct '10 35%
Jan '11 30%

Thanks. You proved my point.

Statistics can state the obvious, and also the distort the facts, especially out of context.

Since actual sales of mobile devices increased the past year, those units that maintained their volume would actually show reduced percentages, while only those who introduced new units with new volumes (or else increased sales of existing ones) would reflect an increase. ERGO those percentages being deceptive.

Equally important was the clear and definitive growth in Android-based units, which are gaining market acceptance in direct opposition to iOS-based devices (Apple) - that's their competition, not Blackberry in that space.

So everyone's numbers changed over the past year, and it has as much to do with new introductions, Android growth, and other sales anomolies....as it does anything to do with Blackberry device sales over the past year.

Statistics can say what folks want them to say, especially out of context. That's why believing purely isolated numbers or percentages never tells the full story.

As for Kool-Aid - no one drinks more than Apple people. I could care less who makes my device, as long as it is a reliable phone first and forward my e-mail second. Everything else is a distant second.

It happens to be Blackberry right now, governed by company policy (which prohibits anything Apple or Android-based). That could always change in the future. In the mean time...when RIM is selling over $5.8 Billion in product, they are clearly neither in trouble or sinking.

Obviously, they need to keep up with the Jones on the tech side, and their OS6-based devices will soon do just that...providing virtually anything found in an Android unit.
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#28 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 10:36 AM

Thanks. You proved my point.

Statistics can state the obvious, and also the distort the facts, especially out of context.

Since actual sales of mobile devices increased the past year, those units that maintained their volume would actually show reduced percentages, while only those who introduced new units with new volumes (or else increased sales of existing ones) would reflect an increase. ERGO those percentages being deceptive.

Equally important was the clear and definitive growth in Android-based units, which are gaining market acceptance in direct opposition to iOS-based devices (Apple) - that's their competition, not Blackberry in that space.

So everyone's numbers changed over the past year, and it has as much to do with new introductions, Android growth, and other sales anomolies....as it does anything to do with Blackberry device sales over the past year.

Statistics can say what folks want them to say, especially out of context. That's why believing purely isolated numbers or percentages never tells the full story.

As for Kool-Aid - no one drinks more than Apple people. I could care less who makes my device, as long as it is a reliable phone first and forward my e-mail second. Everything else is a distant second.

It happens to be Blackberry right now, governed by company policy (which prohibits anything Apple or Android-based). That could always change in the future. In the mean time...when RIM is selling over $5.8 Billion in product, they are clearly neither in trouble or sinking.

Obviously, they need to keep up with the Jones on the tech side, and their OS6-based devices will soon do just that...providing virtually anything found in an Android unit.


Yes, percentages can be skewed depending on the number sold. Here's a different chart that actually shows the number of phones sold last year at Verizon. You can see that RIM was selling nearly 450,000 phones PER month last year in January, February, March (and had half the smart phone market). By October, after a steady decline, they were down to 200,000 phones (about 20% of the Market) - And this was before Verizon started offering the iPhone.

Anyway you look at it, Blackberry Sales are on a steady decline - which is practically the definition of a dying brand.

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I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#29 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 11:02 AM

Thanks. You proved my point.

I didn't prove your point at all. All I showed was that Blackberry is losing market share and doing so at what appears to be an increasing rate. Why is not indicated, only how much.

For a 5% loss of market share and RIM to hold fast to existing customers would require a pretty hefty increase in the size of the smart phone market. It also points to the idea that Blackberry is not given much consideration by first-time adopters.

Say there are 10,000,000 fruits in the marketplace at some point in time. 3.5 million of them are blackberries. In order for that same 3.5 million fruits to become only 30% of the fruits extant, there must have been 17% more fruits added to the marketplace and none of them were blackberries. 70+% growth annually is outstanding unless you have no part of it.

I observe that phone hardware turnover is very high in the Blackberry market, but RIM probably isn't the big benefactor of hardware upgrades so that's not a big source of revenue. They need more big customers buying and upgrading their server products and if the user base is not expanding significantly, that's not gonna happen.

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#30 OFFLINE   Mustang Dave

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 11:40 AM

It is probably semi-important when comparing products such as PDA's to distinguish between the home consumer and business markets. A PDA such as a BB that has better Corporate level capabilities may not have all the app capabilities say as a Droid, and Driod may not fullfill all the requirements for Corporate use.

My personal opinion is there is not one PDA on the market today that adequately covers both markets. To try and declare one PDA better than another seems pretty futile as it will come down to choice and needs of the individual.

I don't rely on market trends or popularity to determine what is the best technology for me or for business either. Touting numbers to back one's choice seems a bit insecure or just chest-pounding.

The products from Google (Android, Gmail, Chrome etc) are niffty but none of them are Business Grade. Fine for use by the home user though.

#31 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 01:59 PM

I don't rely on market trends or popularity to determine what is the best technology for me or for business either. Touting numbers to back one's choice seems a bit insecure or just chest-pounding.

The products from Google (Android, Gmail, Chrome etc) are niffty but none of them are Business Grade. Fine for use by the home user though.


Perhaps you should try and read the thread before posting.

Most of the comments have come from the original statement "Blackberry is a dying breed". The Market trends and/or popularity graphs and statistics are directly related to that statement and have nothing to do with anyone's current choice. So, your statement about touting numbers and insecurity shows an general ignorance on your part regarding the discussion. It's easy to jump into a thread and spout thoughts that aren't pertinent, in the future you might want to put in a little effort and try and grasp the meanings behind the words firt.

As for your second statement, droids are definitely business grade, and all the users in my company can vouch for that. There is nothing I could do on my previous Blackberry that I can't do on my current Droid, but there's lots of things I can do now that I couldn't do before.

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#32 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 04:00 PM

As for your second statement, droids are definitely business grade, and all the users in my company can vouch for that. There is nothing I could do on my previous Blackberry that I can't do on my current Droid, but there's lots of things I can do now that I couldn't do before.


Is it truly there was nothing you could do on your Blackberry that you can't on Droid, or nothing you did do on your Blackberry? There is a difference :)

When one of my users wants a new device, I look at the best device for them. I have some that only care about email, contacts and calendar. I recommend Blackberry for them. For others, I think iPhone is better for them (though I'm generally not recommending getting iPhones now), others still Android. I've had one where I recommended Windows Phone 7. The only ones that have returned a unit are ones that didn't get my advice first.

#33 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 04:39 PM

I didn't prove your point at all. All I showed was that Blackberry is losing market share and doing so at what appears to be an increasing rate.

Voodoo Math.

If you have a total number of sales, and increase that number across all brands...and one of the brands does more sales than the others...the others will lose "market share", even thought their sales may exceed previous year volumes.

Anyone who has taken a statistics class knows how they can be used to manipulate a point.

Marketshare % is a moving target, and often includes the flavor-of-the-month in popular devices. Those come and go.

If someone sells 10 of something and then the next year sells 100....does that 10-fold sales increase mean its going through the roof in terms of numbers....nope.

Bottom line - RIM had better sales in 2010 than 2009, and 2009 was a better year than 2008.

Declining? Hardly.
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#34 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 05:06 PM

Is it truly there was nothing you could do on your Blackberry that you can't on Droid, or nothing you did do on your Blackberry? There is a difference :)


True, and there may have been features of my BB that I never utilized. I mainly used it for Email, Scheduling, Contacts, and as a phone - the same things I use my Droid for. I'm not that big on Droid Apps and extra features.


Voodoo Math.

If you have a total number of sales, and increase that number across all brands...and one of the brands does more sales than the others...the others will lose "market share", even thought their sales may exceed previous year volumes.

Anyone who has taken a statistics class knows how they can be used to manipulate a point.

Marketshare % is a moving target, and often includes the flavor-of-the-month in popular devices. Those come and go.

If someone sells 10 of something and then the next year sells 100....does that 10-fold sales increase mean its going through the roof in terms of numbers....nope.

Bottom line - RIM had better sales in 2010 than 2009, and 2009 was a better year than 2008.

Declining? Hardly.


I'm really surprised you don't think BlackBerry's sales are eroding. You're still talking (and debating) percentages, but the other chart I showed, clearly displays that the number of phones is dwindling too. Yes, it's just one carrier, but it also doesn't have apple involved.

HERE's an article involving their Q3 results last year, which were positive, but at the same time troubling, including this quote:

RIM is getting better at selling new devices to existing subscribers but getting worse at acquiring new subscribers.

which really says it all in terms of their sustainability. If you can't garner new customers, you're in trouble. Do you think more people are leaving Blackberries and going to iphones or Droids? Or do you think more people are leaving iphone and droid and going back to Blackberry? Do you think first time phone owners are getting Blackberries or iphones and droids?

I would think the answer to those questions are obvious and would show that regardless of the data, BlackBerry is in trouble.

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#35 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 08:36 PM

True, and there may have been features of my BB that I never utilized. I mainly used it for Email, Scheduling, Contacts, and as a phone - the same things I use my Droid for. I'm not that big on Droid Apps and extra features.


I just find it funny sometimes. Our Exchange admin recently switched to Android and was telling me all the stuff it could do with Exchange. She listed about 5 things if I remember right. Every one of them was possible on her Blackberry. Maybe it's also a lack of ease of use on Blackberry. What's most aggravating is that some Android units can play back our wav voicemail files, some could until an update in their OS. Yet our Blackberries and iPhones have never had an issue.

#36 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 06:42 AM

I'm really surprised you don't think BlackBerry's sales are eroding.

Not to any significant degree, and not to the point it could quickly change with the release of the BlackPad and 2 new planned phone models.

All manufacturer/provider sales go up and down somewhat. I just don't see the "end of the world" scenario that has been painted by some others.

In the business world, BB is still king. In the case of at least 3 Fortune 500 companies I directly know about (representing over 100,000 employees alone), BB is the only option - iOS and Android stuff simply is banned.

The other issue I have with all this "comparison" is that its somewhat of an apples-to-oranges anyway, as the iPhone/Android consumer user group has an entirely different view/set of "needs" than the business user.

RIM offers both, but has always focused on the business user as their primary market. They continue to have a strong foothold in that space.

The consumer market is more about glitz and razzle-dazzle. In many cases, a "smartphone" is hardly a phone anymore. In still others, they do poorly as a phone, in terms of providing a quality phone user experience. Obviously I don't share the love affair some folks have with their smartphones.

For that reason, the end user purpose of how they will use a device should actually drive their list of options, as opposed to TV commercials promoting the glitz. Some folks like the glitz, and there's nothing wrong with that for their use. But in the spirit of the OP....the choice should first be based on how well it does what the buyer wants it to do things - especially the phone part.
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#37 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 07:08 AM

What's most aggravating is that some Android units can play back our wav voicemail files, some could until an update in their OS. Yet our Blackberries and iPhones have never had an issue.


Because Google took 8 bit PCM WAV out of the player in 2.2; I use http://droidstory.com/ to reflect those WAVs back at me as MP3s.

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#38 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 08:07 AM

In the business world, BB is still king.

Two years ago, Symbian was king. Now it has fractional share.

The percentage losses that Blackberry is experiencing prove that users are going elsewhere. The number of smart phones added each quarter is half what it needs to be to make holding fast an explanation.

Claiming that the defecting users weren't business users is to stick one's head in the sand.

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#39 OFFLINE   jponte55

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 08:35 AM

Two years ago, Symbian was king. Now it has fractional share.

The percentage losses that Blackberry is experiencing prove that users are going elsewhere. The number of smart phones added each quarter is half what it needs to be to make holding fast an explanation.

Claiming that the defecting users weren't business users is to stick one's head in the sand.


At my company i pay for my own phone (iPhone) so I don't have to use a Blackberry. I used Blackberry for 5 years and was tired of the crappy display, unintuitive OS and amazingly bad browser.

#40 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 08:38 AM

Two years ago, Symbian was king. Now it has fractional share.

Claiming that the defecting users weren't business users is to stick one's head in the sand.

Thinking Symbian was ever really going to be "king" or that there are any significant "defecting business users" might just be sticking one's head elsewhere.
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