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New construction question


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17 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   dasoffice

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 07:42 AM

Friend asked my advice for new wiring. Attached drawing is from weakness.com, system I am anticipating he will need. He wants to leave the dish on the current manufactured home which will be used as a guest house--the dish is as pictured and he wants to keep legacy receivers, is not interested in MRV and use diplexed OTA. What would be the preferred installation? Mount swm8 on the dish and run 1 line to the new house/power inserter (distance about 100 ft.) with three more lines for legacy receivers (4 total) or run four lines to the new house to the swm8/PI and wire from there. Maximum distance from wiring box in the new house to the most distant receiver is about 100 ft. Thanks.

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#2 OFFLINE   carl6

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:29 AM

Define "Legacy receivers". Only certain models of receiver/dvr work with SWM. Most "legacy" receivers don't. All of the newer HD receivers and DVRs will work with SWM. Only the D12 and R16 SD units work with SWM. All other older receivers or DVRs will not.

I would strongly recommend running a separate coax for the OTA. If running wire is an option, do it. Diplexing is a non-recommended, unsupported, option. DirecTV won't install a diplexed system.

The SWM8 requires 4 lines from the LNB. There is no option for a single line input to the SWM8. Single line wiring only happens after the SWM (from SWM to receivers). There are 3 legacy outputs on the SWM8 that can be used to feed legacy receivers, but you need a separate coax from the SWM8 to each legacy receiver.

#3 OFFLINE   dasoffice

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:16 AM

By legacy, older non-swm compatible receivers. The swm8 says it supports three legacy outputs and diplexes OTA if I'm not mistaken. Thanks.

#4 OFFLINE   netraa

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:12 AM

1. the system you have diagrammed is not going to be installed by *D home services. Your going to have to go to a dealer to get that kind of system.

2. The system you have diagrammed is not going to be maintained, supported, or repaired by *D home services, your going to have to go to the same dealer to get it fixed, or upgraded.

outside of 1, and 2... If it was me installing this, your going to want to put 4, all port 2 way splitters at the dish. one set of lines to the house and the swm8, the other set to a 6x8 for the mobile home to use.

#5 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:35 AM

By legacy, older non-swm compatible receivers. The swm8 says it supports three legacy outputs and diplexes OTA if I'm not mistaken. Thanks.

The SWM8, when it first came out, was not for home use. The OTA aspect seems to have been there for MDU use for internet/cable.
Three years later, OTA diplexing has been dropped because the band is now being used by the coax networking [DECA].
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#6 OFFLINE   WestDC

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 03:01 PM

Leave the dish on the orginial house--Install a New HD dish on the new house one wwire to new receiver and your done.
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#7 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 05:26 PM

Eight years, ago, I developed the "open work" wiring method that allows my customers and I to rewire our home cabling systems at will.

Just recently, I switched from a standard Dish500 to an EA 1000.4 dish. I've also had a DirecTV SD, Phase III and a KAKU dish before. It was just a pleasure to rewire. Since the wiring could be pulled in and out throughout the entire structure of the house at will, all rewires have been nearly effortless.


Here is the basic design of the OPEN WORK METHOD.

Run each wire separate and straight.

Do not twist tie any of the wires together inside a wall cavity. Do not staple to the studs or any wood inside the wall cavity.

Do not use any conduit.

All holes through the wooden top, bottom and floor plates should be two or 2-9/16 inches in diameter. One side of the wall stud usually has the "new work" line voltage box nailed to it. Run the low voltage cables down the other side of the stud.

Cables can be fastened and bundled in locations outside of enclosed cavities, so that they can be unfastened and unbundled, and easily removed and replaced.

The top of holes can be covered by cutting pieces of galvanized steel flashing and folding one edge. Place this folded, while clamping the cables to the edge of the hole bored through the wood. Fasten down to the sides of the hole with 1/4 drive hex washered sheet metal screws. Make sure that this plate is accasable from outside the enclosed wall cavity after the house is completed. This will allow the install to meet code.

Cut the back off of the "new work box" where you will eventually have access to the cables. Have the installer staple a wire tie, wrapped and bundle the cables to the stud, so that cutting the wire tie will let you release all of the cables.

If going two or more floors, install a removed back "new work box" at the same level as the other outlet boxes over the cables coming down the wall next to the stud. You can install a blank plate over this frame. Removing two screws on the blank frame will allow easy access to the cables for pulling.

#8 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 05:46 PM

Instead of cutting the backs of line boxes, why not just use the open back low voltage boxes?
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#9 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 05:51 PM

Instead of cutting the backs of line boxes, why not just use the open back low voltage boxes?


That's because more than 10 years, ago, when I developed this method, you could not buy open back low voltage wiring brackets.

This stuff has come out only in the last 5-6 years.

#10 OFFLINE   dasoffice

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:43 AM

Let's ask the question this way. He has the protection plan and calls the movers connection. He does not at this time want a dish on the new house or in the yard so it seems he needs to use the old dish. If he wants to keep a mix of swm and non-swm compatible receivers, is not interested in DECA or MRV and wants OTA diplexed in, will they install a SWM8 (and if so, the original question stands) and if not, why not and what would they do. He does not want to have a commitment. I have tried to talk to Directv prior to this for some planning, but all they will say is schedule the movers connection and then see what they do. Any techs done a job with the same requested requirements? Thanks for everyone's input.

#11 OFFLINE   Tisby

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:08 AM

A situation like this is going to depend on who comes out. I'm willing to bet he's going to need to get a retailer as if I went to a job like that, it's going to cost $$$... It's nowhere near a "standard installation". A SWM-8 is not going to automatically be on a work order like that and chances of them getting someone like me or the other techs on this site that are knowledgeable of workarounds or tricks to get line items added to work orders are slim to none...

#12 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 08:07 AM

Let's ask the question this way. He ...... calls the movers connection. He does not at this time want a dish on the new house or in the yard......


The notes on the account "could" read something like "No Line of Site no Landlord Permission".


......so it seems he needs to use the old dish. If he wants to keep a mix of swm and non-swm compatible receivers, is not interested in DECA or MRV and wants OTA diplexed in, will they install a SWM8 (and if so, the original question stands) and if not, why not and what would they do. He does not want to have a commitment. I have tried to talk to Directv prior to this for some planning, but all they will say is schedule the movers connection and then see what they do. Any techs done a job with the same requested requirements? Thanks for everyone's input.


If he adds any new receivers then he adds a commitment. Since your friend asked for advice on pre-wiring why not suggest he run 5 lines from the old house to the new with 3 lines to each location he wants a DVR. I could work with something like that, otherwise your looking at custom charges and marked up equipment costs.

#13 OFFLINE   netraa

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:46 PM

Let's ask the question this way. He has the protection plan and calls the movers connection. He does not at this time want a dish on the new house or in the yard so it seems he needs to use the old dish. If he wants to keep a mix of swm and non-swm compatible receivers, is not interested in DECA or MRV and wants OTA diplexed in, will they install a SWM8 (and if so, the original question stands) and if not, why not and what would they do. He does not want to have a commitment. I have tried to talk to Directv prior to this for some planning, but all they will say is schedule the movers connection and then see what they do. Any techs done a job with the same requested requirements? Thanks for everyone's input.


I am going to preface this with: if the home services tech is smart enough to figure out what you want and how to do it, he's also going to be smart enough to know better than to touch this install with a 10 foot pole. It's a QC nightmare and any tech worth his salt will just walk away from this.

Yes, you might find a greenie weenie that will give it a try, but do you really want to. You might also find a tech that's willing to work off the books, but since that is a terminable offense, and jobs are hard to come by....

1. protection plan isn't going to matter on this one bit as it has nothing to do with movers connections

2. there is -0- chance of getting a swim8 on the work order, and just barely above -0- chance of getting one out of a tech for free, and just barely above that on getting one out of a tech at all.

#14 OFFLINE   SaLance

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:50 PM

Why don't you have the tech come out and do a mover's connect, then just order a SWM 8 off of solid signal??? I can tell you now, this is not happening at no cost
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#15 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 03:36 PM

I am going to preface this with: if the home services tech is smart enough to figure out what you want and how to do it, he's also going to be smart enough to know better than to touch this install with a 10 foot pole. It's a QC nightmare and any tech worth his salt will just walk away from this.

Yes, you might find a greenie weenie that will give it a try, but do you really want to. You might also find a tech that's willing to work off the books, but since that is a terminable offense, and jobs are hard to come by....

1. protection plan isn't going to matter on this one bit as it has nothing to do with movers connections

2. there is -0- chance of getting a swim8 on the work order, and just barely above -0- chance of getting one out of a tech for free, and just barely above that on getting one out of a tech at all.


Ah, brother Netrea?

..."You might also find a tech that's willing to work off the books, but since that is a terminable offense, and jobs are hard to come by...."

Is that where we are? An employee works for an employer. At other times he can do other things when not being paid by the first employer. So the first employer also now tells employees how much money they can earn and where they have to earn it?

I have seen deals like this before but the compensation offered made them acceptable to employees. Directv thinks they are playing (and paying) at this level now?

Best example = " Sir, that extra phone jack will cost you $50,000.00 each year and you have to provide medical benefits for my family with a suitable retirement package with profit sharing. A term of my employment that has been accepted by my union is that we will not provide any outside service to the users of this system."

Just askin"

Joe

Edited by joe diamond, 05 April 2011 - 03:48 PM.
typo


#16 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:24 PM

Friend asked my advice for new wiring. Attached drawing is from weakness.com, system I am anticipating he will need. He wants to leave the dish on the current manufactured home which will be used as a guest house--the dish is as pictured and he wants to keep legacy receivers, is not interested in MRV and use diplexed OTA. What would be the preferred installation? Mount swm8 on the dish and run 1 line to the new house/power inserter (distance about 100 ft.) with three more lines for legacy receivers (4 total) or run four lines to the new house to the swm8/PI and wire from there. Maximum distance from wiring box in the new house to the most distant receiver is about 100 ft. Thanks.


Aside from the Directv system considerations.....the local electrical inspector will want to comment on your plan.

As a generalization, all circuits from one structure and all appliances used in that structure are bonded to a common ground for that structure as the electric service is established.

IF you connect appliances from one structure to the electric circuits from another structure grounded to a different potential. . . BAD THINGS COULD HAPPEN!

There are ways of doing what you want but do consult with an electrician to see what he ( and you) can live with. You could be shocked! (couldn't resist that one!)

Joe

#17 OFFLINE   netraa

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 09:03 PM

Ah, brother Netrea?

..."You might also find a tech that's willing to work off the books, but since that is a terminable offense, and jobs are hard to come by...."

Is that where we are? An employee works for an employer. At other times he can do other things when not being paid by the first employer. So the first employer also now tells employees how much money they can earn and where they have to earn it?

I have seen deals like this before but the compensation offered made them acceptable to employees. Directv thinks they are playing (and paying) at this level now?

Best example = " Sir, that extra phone jack will cost you $50,000.00 each year and you have to provide medical benefits for my family with a suitable retirement package with profit sharing. A term of my employment that has been accepted by my union is that we will not provide any outside service to the users of this system."

Just askin"

Joe


yes, it violates the no-compete agreement that you sign up to work.

Your going to be hard pressed to find ANY employer that is going to let you do the exact same work that they pay you to do, off the books.

They don't care one iota if you mow lawns, drive a taxi, paint, fish, or play golf for $$.... But they do care a lot if you install *d systems in your local market using their training, tools, materials, ect... off the records.

#18 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 05:10 AM

yes, it violates the no-compete agreement that you sign up to work.

Your going to be hard pressed to find ANY employer that is going to let you do the exact same work that they pay you to do, off the books.

They don't care one iota if you mow lawns, drive a taxi, paint, fish, or play golf for $$.... But they do care a lot if you install *d systems in your local market using their training, tools, materials, ect... off the records.



This is where the status of the relationship comes in.

Since HSPs have nothing but contractors they are the ones who specifically cannot have a say in what their subcontractors do. As an employee...yup, they can fire you. But anything except activating systems using employer registered receivers is pretty hard to prove.

Using employer issued materials is theft.

What would really do it is if someone rolled in to do a DISH install in a Directv lettered van. .....I have repaired Directv installs done by a local CATV guy with orange temp. coax.

I watch as this issue evolves without me.

Joe

Edited by joe diamond, 06 April 2011 - 05:12 AM.
typo





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