Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

HD digital modulation for sport bars?


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   sporter

sporter

    New Member

  • Registered
  • 5 posts
Joined: Apr 05, 2011

Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:00 PM

HD digital modulation for sport bars?

any know of some good hardware for this that is not very high cost?

Is it best to fit it into a old SD / analog / coax system that is in place.

replacing the old SD / analog system with digital QAM seems to cheaper then installing a switcher system and running lots of new cable to each tv.

HD tv's are in place.

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   cypherx

cypherx

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,731 posts
  • LocationPA - Berks County
Joined: Aug 27, 2010

Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:03 PM

I'd like to hear people's solutions as well. Last I checked, a QAM modulator is like $1000 and they only take ASI inputs. So you need to somehow get the HD signal in ASI format from an MPEG groomer. Usually carrier grade receivers can put the stuff out via ASI to a groomer which does the statistical multiplexing, then that goes to the QAM modulator. In a modern day cable system, the carrier grade receivers actually put everything out on an IP network, and they use mpeg processing equipment and QAM all on their backend IP networks. Then they use something called cherry pickers to pull streams and organize a multiplex, and they can send that out via ASI or multicast IP via ethernet.

So I don't think QAM would be cost effective or simple by any means... but if someone knows a better way, I'm curious!

#3 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

JoeTheDragon

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,146 posts
Joined: Jul 21, 2008

Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:51 PM

I'd like to hear people's solutions as well. Last I checked, a QAM modulator is like $1000 and they only take ASI inputs. So you need to somehow get the HD signal in ASI format from an MPEG groomer. Usually carrier grade receivers can put the stuff out via ASI to a groomer which does the statistical multiplexing, then that goes to the QAM modulator. In a modern day cable system, the carrier grade receivers actually put everything out on an IP network, and they use mpeg processing equipment and QAM all on their backend IP networks. Then they use something called cherry pickers to pull streams and organize a multiplex, and they can send that out via ASI or multicast IP via ethernet.

So I don't think QAM would be cost effective or simple by any means... but if someone knows a better way, I'm curious!


this seems to work with component in but how good is it? Is it for cable based systems?

http://www.zeevee.com/

Some of the manuals there seem to show it muxing in to a cable line but will they work in a sat mini head end like most sports bars seem to have?

I think you can get away with a lot more with analog then you can with digital.

The directv side is likely the easy part just You just need to get a HD dish, boxes and maybe a new multiswitch.

Now some of switcher systems are cool but are likely high cost and needs lots of cable run as well. There is a sports bar near me that has one but they are a high cost place $2.00 for a coke with no free refills?

I have been to other places with a analog based coax system with lots cable splitters and some time you see snow / poor pq on some of tv's.

So even useing a old analog system may not work with digital anyways.
I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#4 OFFLINE   wall-e

wall-e

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 56 posts
Joined: Jul 19, 2009

Posted 06 April 2011 - 03:35 AM

For what it is worth, when I went to Best Buy in California during the fall of 2010, their tv wall was connected via a 75 ohm coax cable to all tv's. None of the sales people where able to answer my question on how the HD signal for their internal HD demo was distributed.

Walmart uses a component distribution system made by a company called CE Labs. But that would require running component cable to all tv's.

I would also be interested in hearing about a reasonable cost HD distribution system. my current setup is just a R22(w/HD)-->VCR-->CH4 to several tv's. At some point i will upgrade to all HD, but it is a crime to watch SD on a HD tv. :-)

-walle

#5 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

AntAltMike

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,704 posts
  • LocationCollege Park MD (just outside Wash, DC)
Joined: Nov 20, 2004

Posted 06 April 2011 - 02:33 PM

Last I knew, Best Buy used Sencore equipment that costs a fortune.

I know of several commercial operators who are presently satisfied with the zeevee product. It takes component output and MPEG encodes it before QAM modulating. I expect to be trying out my first one either Friday or Monday.

#6 OFFLINE   cabletech

cabletech

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 256 posts
Joined: Jan 20, 2011

Posted 06 April 2011 - 08:09 PM

Most Best buy's that I have seen, all show the same program and they have a 'master in'
either from the local cable company or D* then they go to a 'master' HDMI to RF cable combiner then run RG6 to all tv's.

Sporter--how many tv's and how many channels are you looking at in this location?

Do you want the recievers at the TV or in a back room?

If in a back room, a small 'headend' system is the way to go.

Call Pace International (800-444-7223) and ask about they full size (19' rack) mod's (about $60ea) and there mini DIg mod (about $330ea). The differance is the full size is channel spec. and the mini can be set to any channel. Then you go off the mods to a combiner and feed with RG6 to the tv. This gives you the choice of a differant program and any tv. IF you go 10 channel with the mini mod you can do the whole thing for the price of just 6 of the VeeZee's. Give them a call-what the hay-you will learn some thing new. They will even help design the system. They used to be a BIG prime distrub. for D* and for some reason they went Dish, but they sell master system equipment for both.

#7 OFFLINE   sporter

sporter

    New Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 5 posts
Joined: Apr 05, 2011

Posted 06 April 2011 - 09:47 PM

it's for a friend of a friend and I should be able to get more info next week just trying to get some ideas. I think they have like 8 sd boxes and like 15+ Tv's so I think a box at each tv + SWIM is out. also I think they have a sound system hooked in to the back room box as well.

#8 OFFLINE   BattleZone

BattleZone

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,969 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2007

Posted 06 April 2011 - 10:07 PM

A couple of issues here:

1. HD is NOT SD. By that, I mean there are many additional laws and restrictions on HD content, which is only distributed digitally, and is protected therefore under the DMCA, then there were with SDTV, which was nearly unrestricted, at least from a technology point of view.

2. A sportsbar is going to be inspected sooner or later. The fines for breaking the rules are HUGE.

3. The DMCA makes it a violation of federal law to take encrypted digital TV signals and break the encryption. Other laws require HDTV content that is delivered from content providers to remain encrypted into the TV if the signal remains in digital format.

4. The only *legal* way to distribute digital HD signals (other than ATSC broadcasts) over RF (coax) is with equipment using the Pro:Idiom system. DirecTV and Dish both make Pro:Idiom-compatible head-end equipment (figure about $1200/channel, with most systems being 12 or 24 HD channels), but you must also be using Pro:Idiom-compatible TVs. LG, Samsung, and a few other manufacturers make several of their TVs in a commercial/hospitality version that incorporate the Pro:Idiom hardware needed to decode the encrypted HD signals via coax.

So, the real answer to your question is: No, there aren't any inexpensive ways to modulate and distribute HD signals, and there aren't likely to be, given the protection digital signals have under current US laws.

Commercial & Residential Satellite System Design & Installation
DirecTV, Dish Network & Free-To-Air


#9 OFFLINE   matt

matt

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,858 posts
Joined: Jan 11, 2010

Posted 06 April 2011 - 11:05 PM

Why not put a receiver at each TV? With some exceptions it would run on the existing coax. I see lots of restaurants and bars that do this...
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
Wireless DECA
HR34-700!
R22-200 Leased
Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#10 OFFLINE   Jodean

Jodean

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 678 posts
Joined: Jul 17, 2010

Posted 07 April 2011 - 12:08 AM

I see about half and half in the bars here. Half have receivers on the tvs, other half are using hmdi over ethernet.

They make a great RF remote as well for a whole system solution. Cant remember the name but had a 4"x4" lcd screen and the bartender could control all 25 tvs from it using RF with a rack system back in the back room. All the tvs were numbered and corresponded to numbers on the lcd display. Seemed pretty simple and even the blonde waitresses figured out how to use it!

#11 OFFLINE   BattleZone

BattleZone

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,969 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2007

Posted 07 April 2011 - 07:41 AM

Yes, sports bars often use matrix switches. 8 x 16 switches are common; 8 HD receivers providing feeds, any of which can be sent to any of 16 TVs, usually via HDMI over CAT5. Such systems usually run about $15-20,000, plus installation (2 CAT5 per TV), and are pretty easy to use.

Commercial & Residential Satellite System Design & Installation
DirecTV, Dish Network & Free-To-Air


#12 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

JoeTheDragon

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,146 posts
Joined: Jul 21, 2008

Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:18 AM

I see about half and half in the bars here. Half have receivers on the tvs, other half are using hmdi over ethernet.

They make a great RF remote as well for a whole system solution. Cant remember the name but had a 4"x4" lcd screen and the bartender could control all 25 tvs from it using RF with a rack system back in the back room. All the tvs were numbered and corresponded to numbers on the lcd display. Seemed pretty simple and even the blonde waitresses figured out how to use it!


There is a place that has something like that in a rack but it's not touch screen they have to go to the rack with the D* boxes and use a number pad for the tv's seems to be component feed.

The rack is not in the back and is on the floor.
I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#13 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

JoeTheDragon

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,146 posts
Joined: Jul 21, 2008

Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:24 AM

A couple of issues here:

1. HD is NOT SD. By that, I mean there are many additional laws and restrictions on HD content, which is only distributed digitally, and is protected therefore under the DMCA, then there were with SDTV, which was nearly unrestricted, at least from a technology point of view.

2. A sportsbar is going to be inspected sooner or later. The fines for breaking the rules are HUGE.

3. The DMCA makes it a violation of federal law to take encrypted digital TV signals and break the encryption. Other laws require HDTV content that is delivered from content providers to remain encrypted into the TV if the signal remains in digital format.

4. The only *legal* way to distribute digital HD signals (other than ATSC broadcasts) over RF (coax) is with equipment using the Pro:Idiom system. DirecTV and Dish both make Pro:Idiom-compatible head-end equipment (figure about $1200/channel, with most systems being 12 or 24 HD channels), but you must also be using Pro:Idiom-compatible TVs. LG, Samsung, and a few other manufacturers make several of their TVs in a commercial/hospitality version that incorporate the Pro:Idiom hardware needed to decode the encrypted HD signals via coax.

So, the real answer to your question is: No, there aren't any inexpensive ways to modulate and distribute HD signals, and there aren't likely to be, given the protection digital signals have under current US laws.

IS that right Pro:Idiom seems to be for hotels and some of the boxes have stuff like D* tuners on a card and fixed channle numbers set on the box (not for a sports bar)

I have seen lots of sportsbars with compent based systems.

the http://www.zeevee.com/ system seems to be used by some big places so they are braking the law?
I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#14 OFFLINE   sporter

sporter

    New Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 5 posts
Joined: Apr 05, 2011

Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:48 AM

I see about half and half in the bars here. Half have receivers on the tvs, other half are using hmdi over ethernet.

They make a great RF remote as well for a whole system solution. Cant remember the name but had a 4"x4" lcd screen and the bartender could control all 25 tvs from it using RF with a rack system back in the back room. All the tvs were numbered and corresponded to numbers on the lcd display. Seemed pretty simple and even the blonde waitresses figured out how to use it!


this seem like a good system
tap.tv/bars_pilot.php

but amientertainment owns them and there is very little info on the new site and they seem to sell it as a AD MANAGER / rotating channels featuring hundreds of hours of entertainment video. also don't want ads on the screen next to sports. and there web site has no info on how it wired as well. Does any one have more info on them?

also seems use hd over component and someone is this thread said that I can't even use that under the law and running lots of component will that cost more then HDMI over cat 5?

#15 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,723 posts
  • LocationBay Area
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:23 AM

this seem like a good system
tap.tv/bars_pilot.php

but amientertainment owns them and there is very little info on the new site and they seem to sell it as a AD MANAGER / rotating channels featuring hundreds of hours of entertainment video. also don't want ads on the screen next to sports. and there web site has no info on how it wired as well. Does any one have more info on them?

also seems use hd over component and someone is this thread said that I can't even use that under the law and running lots of component will that cost more then HDMI over cat 5?

That's just wording by someone who can't provide a reference to THE LAW - it can't be accepted in such form as legal advise or disclosure.

#16 OFFLINE   matt

matt

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,858 posts
Joined: Jan 11, 2010

Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:35 AM

Buffalo Wild Wings has all their TVs connected via component at the one here.
Slimline 5 with SWM-16
Wireless DECA
HR34-700!
R22-200 Leased
Owned H25-700 and H24-700 off and packed for the move.

DIRECTV subscriber since Nov. 2009

#17 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

AntAltMike

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,704 posts
  • LocationCollege Park MD (just outside Wash, DC)
Joined: Nov 20, 2004

Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:03 PM

A couple of issues here:

1. HD is NOT SD. By that, I mean there are many additional laws and restrictions on HD content, which is only distributed digitally, and is protected therefore under the DMCA, then there were with SDTV, which was nearly unrestricted, at least from a technology point of view.


But the protection afforded to the authorized programming distributor is exercised or enforced at his own discretion. As far as I know, DirecTV has allowed clear QAM distribution for certain classes of commercial customer, but presently does not allow it for residential and so-called "hospitality" classes of customer. The HDTV distribution in most major league arenas is unencrypted QAM, and I have been told by a local DirecTV dealer that he is distributing zeevee, reconstituted QAM in a hospital with DirecTV's full knowledge.

2. A sportsbar is going to be inspected sooner or later. The fines for breaking the rules are HUGE.

3. The DMCA makes it a violation of federal law to take encrypted digital TV signals and break the encryption.


Have you tried to get DirecTV to activate an HD receiver with analog, HDTV component outputs in a sportsbar? I'm sure such activation is routine. I haven't seen anything in their commercial public viewing contract that explicitely precludes MPEG encoding and QAM modulating that content.

...Other laws require HDTV content that is delivered from content providers to remain encrypted into the TV if the signal remains in digital format.


I'm not aware of any such laws, though the contract between the program provider and the customer could surely require that, but I also scrutinized the current edition of some DISH Network contracts and they explicitely authorize HDTV distribution of programming for hospitality (hotel/motel) bulk distribution yet do not mention a Pro:Idiom requirement for it. On the other hand, they do mandate some HD "per drop" fees without explaining how that charge is enforced.

DISH Network, unlike DirecTV, encourages the use of its low end HDTV receiver, model 211, which has an analog, component HDTV output, in contemporary headend installations, however it is possible that they don't load the HDTV channel number into their limited guides unless the account as explicitely subscribed to an HDTV viewing option. FWIW, it is also theoretically possible that DISH and DirecTV have the means to disable or "downres" the composite, HDTV outputs on boxes in accounts where it does not want those signals available.

4. The only *legal* way to distribute digital HD signals (other than ATSC broadcasts) over RF (coax) is with equipment using the Pro:Idiom system. DirecTV and Dish both make Pro:Idiom-compatible head-end equipment.


When I got "certified" for Pro:Idiom installation by NACE about a year ago, there was no mention of any DISH Network, Pro:Idiom hardware, though its development certainly seemed inevitable. Can you find me a link to any dealer information on such products? I am in regular contact with a number of DISH Network commercial dealers and none of them are yet aware of any such hardware.

So, the real answer to your question is: No, there aren't any inexpensive ways to modulate and distribute HD signals, and there aren't likely to be, given the protection digital signals have under current US laws.


I don't know how much the price on MPEG encoders might drop. I think the cheapest zeevee product is about $750 at present, but I don't agree that the HD programmers are not likely to give permission to decode and distribute their standard definition signals, but they allow their SD programming to be similarly processed now, even though they have the same rights to restrict the use of that digital, encrypted data.

Whether and when they ultimately extend the privilege or distributing digital signals in commercial properties will be an economic decision based on hiow much that they think they might lose by facilitating the production of bootleg copies, versus how much more money they think they might make by facilitating the distribution of it in commercial establishment.

#18 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

AntAltMike

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,704 posts
  • LocationCollege Park MD (just outside Wash, DC)
Joined: Nov 20, 2004

Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:41 PM

I've just done a little calling around, and apparently, there is a company called Video Propulsion - or something like that - that has a licensed, DISH Network compatible, Pro:Idiom system available, but the preliminary description of it I received makes it seem even more awkward and costly that DirecTV's implementation of that technology.

#19 OFFLINE   BattleZone

BattleZone

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,969 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2007

Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:39 PM

That's correct:

http://www.videoprop...ish-network-new

It is very, very similar to DirecTV/PDI's "Com1000" system, except that it uses ViP222 receivers, connected to the head-end via Ethernet, instead of the nice, rack-mount dual-tuner cards that the Com1000 system uses.

Obviously, you can do whatever you want to analog, including Component HD, because there is no encyption on analog, nor can there be. But I strongly caution anyone against adopting an analog solution, since analog is on the way out.

As of 1/1/2011, no new consumer HD video equipment can be designed and FCC approved with HD-capable analog outputs. Pre-existing models may continue to be manufactured until 1/1/2013, at which time even those will no longer be able to be manufactured. 1.8 years may seem like a long time in the future today, but that time will come and go quickly, and to invest a sizable amount of cash into an analog-based system, when the availability of analog HD equipment will be questionable at best in the long term, doesn't seem like a wise decision to me.

*Digital* distribution, fed from digital sources, requires encryption, which is why there aren't any non-encypted solutions for all-digital distribution.

Commercial & Residential Satellite System Design & Installation
DirecTV, Dish Network & Free-To-Air


#20 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,723 posts
  • LocationBay Area
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:56 PM

How those ViP222 output via Ethernet [RJ-45] ? Are they special ViP222i ?




spam firewall