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HD digital modulation for sport bars?


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30 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 10:43 PM

....you can do whatever you want to analog, including Component HD, because there is no encyption on analog, nor can there be....


Except that the signal provider can preclude receivers from accessing the HDTV version of the channel, just like DirecTV SMATV SD headend receivers can only tune a very small gropup of channels. If you have a DirecTV SMATV headend, for example, each ESPN receiver is only authorized to tune channels in the ESPN suite, whereas in a DISH Network SMATV headend (last time I checked), any headend receiver can tune any channel that the customer subscribes to.


But I strongly caution anyone against adopting an analog solution, since analog is on the way out.

As of 1/1/2011, no new consumer HD video equipment can be designed and FCC approved with HD-capable analog outputs. Pre-existing models may continue to be manufactured until 1/1/2013, at which time even those will no longer be able to be manufactured. 1.8 years may seem like a long time in the future today, but that time will come and go quickly, and to invest a sizable amount of cash into an analog-based system, when the availability of analog HD equipment will be questionable at best in the long term, doesn't seem like a wise decision to me.


That sounds like the public pronouncement that Sony made regarding the licensed manufacture of Blue Ray equipment. It is a choice made by one hardware licenser who also has a huge financial stake in programming that other hardware manufacturer's do not have, or, to date, have not chosen to make.

*Digital* distribution, fed from digital sources, requires encryption, which is why there aren't any non-encypted solutions for all-digital distribution.


No, digital distribution, fed from a single source, requires digital encoding, not encryption. At present, unencrypted MPEG re-encoding is not a violation of any law or regulation that I am aware of, but it is presently practical for the signal distributors (DirecTV, DISH, COmcast, etc.) to restrict the availability of analog HDTV to customers whom it does not want to re-encode it if they so choose.

Edited by AntAltMike, 09 April 2011 - 08:02 AM.


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#22 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 09:42 AM

Except that the signal provider can preclude receivers from accessing the HDTV version of the channel, just like DirecTV SMATV SD headend receivers can only tune a very small gropup of channels. If you have a DirecTV SMATV headend, for example, each ESPN receiver is only authorized to tune channels in the ESPN suite, whereas in a DISH Network SMATV headend (last time I checked), any headend receiver can tune any channel that the customer subscribes to.


But that is for hotel with fixed channels numbers and not sports bars that may have like 8-10 boxes and they change channels to what games are on.


also how will HDCP work with having 2+ TV's tuned to 1 HDMI out put? in a Matrix Switch system?
I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#23 OFFLINE   bigglebowski

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 12:17 PM

How those ViP222 output via Ethernet [RJ-45] ? Are they special ViP222i ?


Not sure what a 222i is but yes, your vip222 (the silver one) all connect with cat5 patch cables to an unmanaged network switch, the GIG-E connection from that switch goes to a server like BT's EdgeQAM. The edgeqam process the streams and output them as QAM with Pro:Idiom encryption. The provider for the hotel can log into the edgeqam and tune the receivers as needed even look at signal levels and such. So when I the installer drops in 10 VIP222 and hook them up I dont really know what box is providing what channels. As long as the admin does his job of configuring the edgeqam we dont have to do more than setting up sat configuration, authorize with dishnet, enable dual mode so both tuners are available and they do the rest. Regarding discussion in this thread about content protection when the Edgeqam is streaming to the TVs all outputs (rf, composite) on the VIP222 go dark, you cant even hook up a test TV to verify operation. You disconnect the network line which stops streaming and then you can hookup a test tv.

http://www.blonderto...e/ip/ip-to-qam/

There is also a unit called a floodgate that does about the same thing. I know they admin guys prefer working with the edgeqam over the floodgate fwiw. On the hotel side there isnt much difference, the receivers hook up the same way.

As to the OP question. I would have to say that using HDMI extenders to pull x2 cat5 lines to each display is the way to go. Unless there is a real problem pulling cable because of some kind of exotic construction this will certainly be cheaper. The extenders and cabling will be less than $200 (cost) per set. All the components are cheap and easily replaced if broken.

We have done some of these and used a bundled cable solution that had x3 cat5 and one coax all in one jacket. 2 Cat5s carry the HDMI, the coax "extends" the RF remote (like dishnets little remote that hooks to an F connector on receiver) and you have the last cat5 as a spare. You can use the last one to carry another video source or use it to carry IR signals for TVs etc... You obviously have a coax there already, just pointing out to others thinking about similar installs (there are also IR solutions that use coax). Plus its easier to install a prebundled cable rather than single strands.

#24 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:04 PM

Thanks bigglebowski for the tidbits; would be another point of check for curious ppl - what SW version those 222 running ? Special, like X236 instead L236 ? What is distinguish it as commercial type.

#25 OFFLINE   bigglebowski

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 05:32 PM

Thanks bigglebowski for the tidbits; would be another point of check for curious ppl - what SW version those 222 running ? Special, like X236 instead L236 ? What is distinguish it as commercial type.


One I saw last week was L503. Ive never paid any attention to the rest of the SW to see if there was a special designation. Years ago I remember there was a letter in the SW version that would tell you residential or commercial. I know when we receive one from the supplier that is to be used as a replacement or even an new install come in a box that only has the 1:2 sat splitter with short jumpers for 2 tuners and thats it. No remote or paperwork and they are often in a plastic wrap so at a minimum they are refurbs by Dish. So they must be designated ahead of time from Dish as commercial units. The SD (311 model sw:P439) receivers that come from them are that way too, nothing in the box but the receiver. The boxes do have dish logos though.

#26 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 06:00 PM

I see ... looks like a provision for IP/commercial purpose included in standard SW of 311 and 222 receivers and not require any special things.

#27 OFFLINE   tvhawaii

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 07:55 PM

HD digital modulation for sport bars?

any know of some good hardware for this that is not very high cost?

Is it best to fit it into a old SD / analog / coax system that is in place.

replacing the old SD / analog system with digital QAM seems to cheaper then installing a switcher system and running lots of new cable to each tv.

HD tv's are in place.


Good questions, all, and like a lot of things, the answer is 'it depends'.

If you are going to have -all- NFL Sunday Ticket games, then you have to build for 13 games/sources, which is the most I've ever seen in the last 5 years. Add another couple of sources (DVD, ?) so you're looking at 16x Matrix Switchers. I've used an FSR 16x16 Component Switcher w/ 15 displays and it worked great, but the cabling/termination is a large task (BNC). And no matter what you choose for distribution (HDMI to Cat6?), the cabling -can- be a big pita (night work, difficult runs, etc.).

One of the things I like about the ZeeVee 170 is that you can incrementally add them to most existing SD systems if the displays are fairly new and will scan both analog and QAM cable channels and this makes it attractive to the people who are paying for it . Their output (25dBmv) is lower than most NTSC modulators, but most new displays seem to have good tuners and can deal with less than ideal (-10 to+10 dBmv) input sigs.
I just tested a DEMO ZV-170 (ZeeVee has a free loaner program going) by setting the output to 5 dBmv (easy to do from the front panel switches/display) and padding the output with 27 dB worth of attenuators, and I still had picture (-22 dBmv) although I did see it break up a couple of times during the 15 minutes I watched it.
I had to use fans/plenum on the old CableTronix mini agile modulators, but the ZV runs cool as well.

There's a -lot- of misinformation in this thread regarding Component outputs, Inspection? :rolleyes: HDCP (the DirecTV HD receivers have 16 HDCP keys by the way), encryption, etc., most of which doesn't even apply to the programming content at SportsBars, so I suggest you read 'Audio Authority's' take on it at:
http://www.audioauth.../page/component
http://www.audioauth...re_AAC_0510.pdf
CEPro has the debate on Component between Crestron and ZeeVee guys at:
http://www.commercia...e_analog_sunset

--Michael

#28 OFFLINE   tvhawaii

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 10:10 PM

I see about half and half in the bars here. Half have receivers on the tvs, other half are using hmdi over ethernet.

They make a great RF remote as well for a whole system solution. Cant remember the name but had a 4"x4" lcd screen and the bartender could control all 25 tvs from it using RF with a rack system back in the back room. All the tvs were numbered and corresponded to numbers on the lcd display. Seemed pretty simple and even the blonde waitresses figured out how to use it!


I'd be interested in hearing the name of that remote if you can get it. I've searched and everything I come up with is many years old.
Simple enough for a blonde waitress is the key!:lol:
Thanks,
--Michael

#29 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 10:31 PM

HD digital modulation for sport bars?

any know of some good hardware for this that is not very high cost?

Is it best to fit it into a old SD / analog / coax system that is in place.

replacing the old SD / analog system with digital QAM seems to cheaper then installing a switcher system and running lots of new cable to each tv.

HD tv's are in place.


Hopw many TV"S?

In how many places do you need to be able to change the channels for all the TVS from?

I'd say go with a Box at each tv, wireless game adapter at each tv with one main router for network control (doesn't need to really be hooked up to anything other than the boxes once its set up, it can be and probably should be on its own network encryption) for control, and an ipad at the bar or wherever you want to be able to control all the tv's.. .

#30 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:21 AM

an ipad at the bar or wherever you want to be able to control all the tv's.. .

Has anyone made an iPad application for this purpose? And no, the DirecTV one doesn't count because it won't work with commercial accounts.

#31 OFFLINE   jmayes

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:16 PM

We make a very nice HDTV Sports Bar system using refurbished equipment.

ReSwitch.com

I assure you will not beat the price for 32 TV's

Jmayes




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