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Reworking large Installation and need advice


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17 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   bigtexas

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:24 PM

Ok here's the deal:
I have the old dish non mpeg4 and a 12 receiver setup in my parents place. They were waiting for the new directv tivo but have given up since they get almost no hd channels. Dish is outside, distribution is in the basement and receivers are scattered all over the house. Most runs are 150-250 ft. Our AV integrator said that they cant do directv distribution/dish installs anymore since last summer. Directv installers came over and said they couldnt do such a large job twice now ... bs but I haven't been able to get it resolved. So... I decided to just do it myself. (btw if anyone who lives in dallas wants to make a couple bucks on a sunday/saturday and help me, let me know)

Existing:
Dish <-- 100 ft outdoor rg11 coax --> basement distribution room (spaun amp & splitters) <-- 12 home runs ~ 150-200ft

Proposed:
see image

Questions:
1) What problems do you see with this setup? (obviously)

2) What do I use to split the ota antenna signal and how long should the runs be to the AM-21s? Heard there are problems with the AM-21 and the HR24-500 ... should I be worried?

3) I was just going to buy all the receivers etc from weaknees since DirecTV was trying to make me lease them or pay 600 for each receiver. Is this a good idea? Not too worried about the warranty since they get opened by our integrator to put the IR in

I may be a liitle :lol: over my head but I'm doing my best based on what I have read etc. Not terribly price sensitive but it needs to work of course :D. any help is much appreciated!

Attached Thumbnails

  • DirecTV Home Setup2.jpg

Edited by bigtexas, 28 April 2011 - 03:04 PM.


...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:02 PM

OTA & DECA can't be on the same coax.
I see a lot of problems with your plan, which is mostly the distance/loss.

  • dish to SWiM even with RG11 is a bit long and about 2-3dB more loss than is recommended.
  • The SWiM outputs are AGC'd at -30 dBm, and the receivers should have at least -60 dBm, so you've only got ~30 dB of loss to play with.
This should give you some idea of the cable lengths & splitter losses on the max side:
http://www.dbstalk.c...=1&d=1290621499
Since you're thinking SWiM-16, figure these lengths from the dish in that image.
Figure you'll need a few of these: http://www.sonorades...rget=homeowners
A.K.A VOS

#3 ONLINE   Scott Kocourek

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:14 PM

Moved per OP request.

Opinions expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of DBSTalk.com, DIRECTV, Dish Network, or any other company.
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#4 OFFLINE   jdspencer

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:22 PM

Assuming the distance problem is solved, how many tuners will be in this installation?
DVRs have two and the SWM16 can only handle a total of 16 tuners.
DirecTV since '96, Waivers for ABC, CBS, NBC, & Fox, HR23-700 & HR24-500/AM21, using ethernet based MRV.

#5 OFFLINE   bigtexas

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:55 PM

Hmmm ... thanks for the help so far ...

So it looks like I'm going to need to amplify the signal coming into the basement from the dish as well as the signal that goes out to the receivers. Do I need a slope compensator? If someone could give me a list of the amps and compensators I need to get that would be helpful. There are so many different options on sonora's website.

what about this guys setup? http://www.dbstalk.c...ker#post2682397

Should I just go for a SWM32? The house is wired for about 16 receivers but of course not all the jacks are used.

also, should I buy a super buddy to align my dish or is that overkill? I already have a pole mount that the old dish is on. I have done this once before but that was one of the old sony dishes that just had the led light up and then I used the receiver sat setup screen to fine tune.

Thanks!

#6 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:59 PM

Since you're thinking SWiM-16, figure these lengths from the dish in that image.
Figure you'll need a few of these: http://www.sonorades...rget=homeowners

Also know that using DECA won't be an option if you're going to use this amp.
MRV would need to be done through ethernet.
A.K.A VOS

#7 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:05 PM

Are you sure the home runs are really 150-200ft? That seems really high unless this is actually a hotel or something.
Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, "It is better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
-by Jack Handy

#8 OFFLINE   bigtexas

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:07 PM

its a 25k square foot home

#9 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:08 PM

Hmmm ... thanks for the help so far ...

So it looks like I'm going to need to amplify the signal coming into the basement from the dish as well as the signal that goes out to the receivers. Do I need a slope compensator? If someone could give me a list of the amps and compensators I need to get that would be helpful. There are so many different options on sonora's website.

what about this guys setup? http://www.dbstalk.c...ker#post2682397

Should I just go for a SWM32? The house is wired for about 16 receivers but of course not all the jacks are used.

also, should I buy a super buddy to align my dish or is that overkill? I already have a pole mount that the old dish is on. I have done this once before but that was one of the old sony dishes that just had the led light up and then I used the receiver sat setup screen to fine tune.

Thanks!

The SWiMs act as a polarity locker, so you don't need one.
A SWM32 might be a way to go if you're planning on more than 16 tuners [DVR counts as two].
The Sonora amp has compensation, so you shouldn't need any additional.
Sonora "would like to sell you" an amp for the dish to SWiM leg, but since the SWiM has AGC, the 2-3 dB extra loss may not be a problem. We've used 100' of RG6 without significant problems. In your case rainfade might start "just a bit" sooner, but not sure [for myself] it would be worth the coast of an amp for the gain I'd get.
A.K.A VOS

#10 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:09 PM

its a 25k square foot home

So you're saying it's true: "everything is bigger in Texas". :lol:
A.K.A VOS

#11 OFFLINE   bigtexas

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:04 PM

Well no one asked me but I think a 5k ft home is plenty big enough. At least I got them not to listen to their AV integrator who wanted to rip everything out including the lutron and install all crestron and the cat6 hdmi distribution stuff. Its cool but expensive!!

Anyways, check out my updated schematic on my main post

So is there anyway to use deca with the swm32 and an amp?
Can't I use one of these?

http://www.sonorades...rget=homeowners

And should I just use two 8 splitters since each receiver has two tuners on the SWM32 or should I use 4 4 splitters?

#12 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:08 PM

Well no one asked me but I think a 5k ft home is plenty big enough. At least I got them not to listen to their AV integrator who wanted to rip everything out including the lutron and install all crestron and the cat6 hdmi distribution stuff. Its cool but expensive!!

Anyways, check out my updated schematic on my main post

So is there anyway to use deca with the swm32 and an amp?
Can't I use one of these?

http://www.sonorades...rget=homeowners

with sub band return 2 to 40 MHz

DECA runs at ~475-625 MHz, so this amp doesn't look to work for it.
Also SWiM-32 doesn't work with DECA beyond the eight tuner leg they're connected to.
A.K.A VOS

#13 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:25 PM

I think you've got the tuner side sorted.
If you're wanting to go DECA, I'd scrap the SWiM32, since it doesn't pass DECA and go with:
Dish - http://www.sonorades...rget=homeowners

Then power passing (4) 2-way splitters http://www.a1compone....aspx?item=4349

Feed two SWiM-16s

Use 2 BB DECAs that go to an ethernet switch and then to your home network.

Each SWiM-16 will have DECA between the receivers, the BB DECA will bridge the DECA between the two SWiMs with ethernet.

Also remember that DECA is limited to 16 DECAs, so the SWM-32 would be limited if you were to use BB DECAs to bridge all four outputs.

DirecTV Home Setup3.png


With this much "crap" between the SWiM-16s and the dish, "I might" use a polarity locker.

Edited by veryoldschool, 28 April 2011 - 04:01 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#14 OFFLINE   BattleZone

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 07:47 AM

A polarity locker is completely redundant with SWM switches, which include them in the design.

Commercial & Residential Satellite System Design & Installation
DirecTV, Dish Network & Free-To-Air


#15 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 07:53 AM

A polarity locker is completely redundant with SWM switches, which include them in the design.

"Yeah", but with splitters & an amp, it might not be a bad idea to have "a belt & suspenders" [since they're fairly cheap].
A.K.A VOS

#16 OFFLINE   bixler

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:14 AM

its a 25k square foot home


Damn! Lets see a pic of this mansion...heck with the diagrams....LOL

best of luck this weekend.
Slimline5.....SWM 8.....SWS-8 8 way splitter
PI feeds SWS-8 splitter and HR 21-100 in Media Room 0x62c 3:59am 12/18/12
SWS-8 splitter feeds HR 22-100 in Family Room 0x62c 3:59am 12/18/12 wireless ethernet connection via Linksys WET610N
SWS-8 splitter feeds HR 22-100 in Master Bedroom 0x62c 3:59am 12/18/12
SWS-8 splitter feeds H 21-100 in Guest Bedroom 0x45d2 3:27am 6/27/12

#17 OFFLINE   bigtexas

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 12:16 PM

here some pics of the current setup ... I'm working on my new diagram ... thanks a ton veryoldschool!

I'm still a little confused about what to do with the terrestrial signals ... looks like our current setup has them distributed with the signal ... I could just forget about them ....

So I'm thinking of just going ahead and getting the following sonora products just to make sure this works all before the SWM in the basement:
SEQ509
SD SA-6AL
SD PI-6S

Attached Thumbnails

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  • IMG-20110428-00026.jpg
  • IMG-20110428-00029.jpg
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  • IMG-20110428-00031.jpg
  • IMG-20110428-00037.jpg


#18 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 12:45 PM

The SD PI-6Sis a locker [optional]. The Sonora HRPID1422 looks to have been discontinued.

The SEQ509 is an amp that seems to be better suited [gain wise] for your application.

The SD SA-6AL is another amp, but it's gain may be too high and overdrive the SWiM, by ~10 dB.

Now why are you thinking/planning on two amps? :confused:

As for OTA, if you're going with DECA, then you can't diplex any longer, which means it needs its own coax.
A.K.A VOS




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