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Manual recording for OTA subchannel with no guide info?


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36 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   pboggini

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 01:47 PM

True. We are grandfathered in so this is likely really just an issue for a few folks like me.

peterb

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#22 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 06:04 PM

It's not that E* is "blocking" the EPG from the OTA feeds, the technology E* used for their EPG differs from what is being broadcast. The OTA stations use PSIP data that only goes out a few days while E* carries the EPG data on a satellite transponder that holds 9 days.

I believe all our STB's and DVR's would have to be swapped out if E* decided to use the PSIP data. I'm guessing it's a hardware issue as well as software.
An E* subscriber continuously since February 1997.

#23 OFFLINE   pboggini

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 06:30 PM

If they aren't blocking it how do you explain the fact that I got guide data for two weeks w/o having any dish locals? I would have believed you a month ago but I don't now:-)

Peterb

#24 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 09:44 PM

If you look around here a little you'll see that for some reason the guide data was accidentally turned on for people that didnt pay for locals by mistake for a few weeks. SO in that case, it was an accident and you shouldnt have been getting the guide data without paying for locals in your package, which is how it normally is.

#25 OFFLINE   pboggini

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 09:46 PM

Right guide data was unblocked for us, which I think should be normal. It wasn't dish guide data because it had all the sub channels which dish does not have in my dma.

Peterb

#26 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:20 PM

Right guide data was unblocked for us, which I think should be normal. It wasn't dish guide data because it had all the sub channels which dish does not have in my dma.

Peterb


The only EPG data you will ever see is Dish supplied.

In many market Dish supplies subchannel data too, even though they don't carry those channels via satellite.

None of the Dish receivers in service designed for SAT service (Those TV Pal ones are excluded from this discussion for obvious reasons) use the PSIP data for anything other than determining the virtual channel names.

-- Respect the S.H.I.E.L.D.


#27 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:02 AM

Right guide data was unblocked for us, which I think should be normal. It wasn't dish guide data because it had all the sub channels which dish does not have in my dma.

Peterb


You're still missing part of the picture here....it was DISH guide data. One of the reasons to subscribe to locals thru DISH is so they provide you the OTA guide data, which should include most if not all subchannels you can receive via OTA in your market. Are you starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel now?

#28 OFFLINE   pboggini

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:14 AM

So are you sure that's how it works or are you speculating? If you know the software and how it works, then fine, just say that. If you don't, you are probably speculating.

I'm not sure you are understanding all of what I'm saying here. There are two types of guide data out there at least. One the OTA's provide for free which comes into an antenna, through the cable and hits the receiver. As mentioned, this is PSIP. Either I was seeing this guide info for a couple of weeks or I was seeing Dish guide data which would then presume that Dish gets guide data and provides guide data for more than just the OTA's they sell. As also mentioned Dish does use some PSIP data to remap the channels to the right place so either I was seeing PSIP guide data or Dish is throwing away free guide data at the receiver and presenting me with "Digital Service."

In short, my point is, Dish is the company that seems to be a bit more focused on the user than Cable, ATT or Direct in my experience. It surprises me that Dish would chose to throw away free guide data (sure it doesn't go out as far, but does that matter, to everyone? Not me) and create a scenario where they look to be forcing people to pay for something that is actually free (well actually no, I've paid so Dish would be making me pay twice since I'm far enough away that I needed to put a pretty good sized antenna on my roof) because it's wrapped up in their package.

I'm pretty sure you just don't get what I'm talking about here but that's fine. I didn't have the guide data before, I had a glimmer of hope that Dish was more user focused but I guess I was wrong and they aren't, bummer.

peterb

#29 OFFLINE   scooper

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:36 AM

Dish is plenty customer focused - but that guide data from Tribune is not free.

PSIP and to some extent TVGOS data are the OTA ones.
You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

#30 OFFLINE   pboggini

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:52 AM

I know that guide data from Tribune is not free, PSIP is though and gets all the way to not just the receiver but the software from what I've seen here. Tossing that out was a choice made which is unfortunate. Saying someone is customer focused is one thing, using that to drive business decisions is another. Not suggesting anything malicious, just that no one seems to have thought that people who had been using the Dish ATSC->NTSC boxes with PSIP guide info might want the same functionality in their 722's.

To recap, I'm not looking for Dish to give me something for free that they are paying for. I ponied up and put up an antenna and get the OTA's and guide info to my TV tuners. I loved the fact that my 722 came with an OTA tuner so that I could just change the channels on Dish and get the OTA's rather than changing the TV channel. It would have been cool to just pass the PSIP guide info too.

peterb

#31 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:11 PM

So are you sure that's how it works or are you speculating? If you know the software and how it works, then fine, just say that. If you don't, you are probably speculating.

peterb


I'm completely understanding what you are saying...I'm also telling you I know how it works. I don't think I implied in any of my earlier replies that "I think it works this way". I just flat out said, this is the way it works....DISH and Direct chose a similar approach to OTA guide data integration on their devices...they didnt use the PSIP data, which IIRC, since I rarely use the data on my tv's internal tuner, only goes out a few hours....virtually useless for DVR name based scheduling, unless thats just the way many tv's choose to implement because they are not actual recording devices. If you would like to shell out a few hundred for on of those DISH DTV-PAL standalone dvr's, more power to you, but I actually like the OTA guide data integration...I dont have to futz with changing tv inputs, or switching sources to watch OTA vs. sat channels, its all seamless. I will say that I dont think cable even gives you the option of using OTA and integrating the OTA guide data into their set top boxes, and have you seen the PQ of the locals on cable vs OTA, you couldn't pay me be a cable subscriber...macroblocky pixellated crap...

#32 OFFLINE   pboggini

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 02:30 PM

Well, I think you are a lot closer to understanding me but not quite. Thanks for confirming that you know how it all works, honestly, I didn't know as you never said so I wanted to confirm. Lots of people (not you here thankfully) say things and don't necessarily know how they work so I tend to question.

That said, I can certainly understand why Dish and Direct chose to purchase Tribune data for DVR'ing. I'm sure it works very well and it probably makes the programming easier. Of course I will note that you can purchase OTA DVR's that will record things for you and they seem to do just fine with the OTA data so I don't think it's "virtually useless for DVR name based scheduling" maybe it's just a bit harder, shrug. I too like OTA integration but since I've already sunk the $$ into an antenna (if I lived close enough for one of those home made bow tie ones maybe I wouldn't mind as much but alas I'm far enough away to need a bigger antenna) it seems a bit pointless to me to pay for something again. Sure, I could look at it as I'm paying $6/month for guide data which seems a bit much to me but then again, I don't know how much Tribune costs per person.

Anyway, my point is that there is free guide data out there and offering it would offer Dish customers another option. I could be the only guy in the world who wants this but I sort of doubt it. I assume the TV manufacturers (and Dish for that matter with the $40 DTV-PAL) felt getting the free guide data was worthwhile when building them.

Either way, I've done manual timers before and will continue to do them. If I ever get to the point where I need the locals from Dish I'll gladly pay the $6/month and enjoy the guide info since then the $$ seems worth it. At this point, it's not since I only gain guide data.

Thanks for the education on how it all works, much appreciated.

peterb

#33 OFFLINE   tkrandall

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:26 PM

Anyway, my point is that there is free guide data out there and offering it would offer Dish customers another option. I could be the only guy in the world who wants this but I sort of doubt it. I assume the TV manufacturers (and Dish for that matter with the $40 DTV-PAL) felt getting the free guide data was worthwhile when building them.

peterb


I totally get and agree with what you are saying. Guide data for OTA channels that the provider (Dish) choose to put in their guide stream (sourced from Tribune, etc) should be the first option, but failing that, the boxes could display and utilize PSIP sourced data as a fallback position. If the OTA station does not even provide that, then show "digital service" or "no information available".

#34 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:34 PM

The real reason why Dish (and probably Direct as well) don't use the PSIP EPG data...

That data has not always been reliable... and is not always there for all customers in all markets. When it is there, it is not an extended EPG like Dish gives for 9 days on their DVRs. It is usually less than 24 hours... so it would be almost useless for a DVR to have such limited EPG data.

Also... IF Dish did use that PSIP EPG data... then IF it was wrong, people would still to complain to Dish. Granted, the Tribune data is wrong sometimes too... but at least Dish could threaten to stop paying for it IF they don't get on the ball... Dish has no leverage over an incorrect PSIP EPG.

Bottom line... Dish isn't in the business to provide you access to OTA signals... they do it because they can, and because a lot of customers like it... and Dish tries to integrate as much as they can without creating even more headache.

This is one of those rare customer-unfriendly decisions that I actually have to agree with Dish about.

-- Respect the S.H.I.E.L.D.


#35 OFFLINE   pboggini

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:10 PM

Hmm, interesting. Dish isn't in the business of providing me a means of getting OTA channels integrated in the guide either and I'm assuming that people are just as likely to complain to Dish about their OTA signal being Dish's fault as they'd be to guide info being wrong. Heck, I bet people would complain more about that as guide info is more of a nuisance than not being able to watch TV. Not sure I follow your logic at all.

To me, I'm more of a give people a choice type of person. Dish has been better about this than most but just because you are better than the other guys it doesn't mean you are doing your best. And, I've worked for companies who were the best but didn't take care of customers or look for better ways to do things and they didn't tend to stay on top.

I like Dish better than any of the other options (so the complaints about how awful cable are really don't mean much to me, I don't like it anyway:-)). I'm just pointing out something they could do better. Oh, and if complaints are a problem, just make the guide info an option (enable OTA PSIP guide?) with a pop up that tells the user that it's non Dish provided data. It's really not THAT hard.

peterb

#36 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:34 PM

Hmm, interesting. Dish isn't in the business of providing me a means of getting OTA channels integrated in the guide either and I'm assuming that people are just as likely to complain to Dish about their OTA signal being Dish's fault as they'd be to guide info being wrong.


That wasn't my main point... but it is still a true one. The primary purpose of Dish is to sell satellite programming. They have integrated (or optional add-ons for some receivers) OTA tuners to appease those customers who want both... and Dish does a reasonably good job of that integration into the EPG.

Not having EPG data for all sub-channels is a nuisance... and I grant you that I wish they wouldn't tie the EPG to a subscription to locals... I wish Dish would just provide the data and end all the arguments... but I can't blame them for trying to get every dollar they can. I can just blame them for the EPG data that you still don't get even when you pay.

To me, I'm more of a give people a choice type of person.

...

I'm just pointing out something they could do better. Oh, and if complaints are a problem, just make the guide info an option (enable OTA PSIP guide?) with a pop up that tells the user that it's non Dish provided data. It's really not THAT hard.


It may or may not be "hard" but it would be different and additional programming effort to create and maintain... so it wouldn't be "Free" since they would have to pay someone to write the code... but be that as it may...

You are still missing the primary reason... PSIP OTA EPG data is not always good, consistent, or even available for you... and even when there, it is not something that you can see what is on 2 days from now or a week like the Dish EPG data... so it would be almost useless for your Dish DVR to even try to use the PSIP data.

-- Respect the S.H.I.E.L.D.


#37 OFFLINE   pboggini

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 10:10 AM

I'm not missing that point about psip, I get it (both in understanding its limitations and having it on my non dish 722 ota tuners so pun intended:-)). So I really am only arguing the decision to not include it despite the fact that they read that stuff in (or part of it). Sounds like we both agree. Honestly dish is the one company that I'd expect to do this not comcast or att. They've typically put more effort into the user and gained loyalty. Sure there would be software costs but they'd be minimal and they are dealing with this data and all my other tuners have it including my dish made dtv-pal.

Peterb




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