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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Installer states no LOS. Should I pursue further?


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#76 OFFLINE   1953

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 07:46 AM

Well to miss that tree, then other tress get in the way. i.e. we have to shoot through a gap (the gap I was talking about earlier) in back yard. But in that gap, is where the tree is. I never really took that tree into account, as it is 160' + away etc....

The main thing that I am the most irritated about. Is that I still never got what I asked for. i.e. a second opinion. I got a second opinion, but from the same tech. It is like going to a Doctor, getting diagnosed with something. And going back to the same doctor for a second opinion. Doesn't make sense.

What is your feeling on the tech saying that the Dishpointer app on the Iphone is inaccurate?



This idea may sound or be totally bonkers but here goes.

If a neighboring property has proper LOS talk to the owner and ask if you may install a poll on that property. A modest compensation fee may be helpful. Any such arrangement would need to be in writing. The cabling could be run under ground in conduit for maximum protection.

Sound feasible? :eek2:

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#77 OFFLINE   Tusin

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:03 PM

I should take some pictures to give you guys an idea. I REALLY should have taken a picture while I was on roof.

But pretty much how it works, is I have one gap of trees in my backyard. According to the installer that gap would be plenty big. But the issue through that gap, 160' (across the street) away there is a pretty tall tree that causes LOS issues. And that tree is pretty much smack in the middle of the gap that we would need to point to in the first place.

The tree is actually not the neighbors, it is just a tree across the street near the bike trail.

A few things I am still confused about. He said we needed to clear LOS at 9~10 degrees, straight up and down. He used a device (trying to find a picture of it online to reference, with no luck), that he looked through and it would show the degrees based on the angle of the device. I assume this is solid?

He seemed much more concerned about keeping his "points" then doing the install (which if it has the potential, to cost him jobs, I can respect that). But to go as far as suggesting another company to do the install, cause they will "just do it" kind of put me off a bit.

#78 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:34 PM

I should take some pictures to give you guys an idea. I REALLY should have taken a picture while I was on roof.

But pretty much how it works, is I have one gap of trees in my backyard. According to the installer that gap would be plenty big. But the issue through that gap, 160' (across the street) away there is a pretty tall tree that causes LOS issues. And that tree is pretty much smack in the middle of the gap that we would need to point to in the first place.

The tree is actually not the neighbors, it is just a tree across the street near the bike trail.

A few things I am still confused about. He said we needed to clear LOS at 9~10 degrees, straight up and down. He used a device (trying to find a picture of it online to reference, with no luck), that he looked through and it would show the degrees based on the angle of the device. I assume this is solid?

He seemed much more concerned about keeping his "points" then doing the install (which if it has the potential, to cost him jobs, I can respect that). But to go as far as suggesting another company to do the install, cause they will "just do it" kind of put me off a bit.


Again,
The tech is not in the business of doing FREE installations and Directv will not pay for installations with questionable signal. Eventually you will refuse to pay for a system that blinks out all the time.

So the installer decided not to take the chance on doing all the work and then not getting paid. Ten degrees elevation is really low. Consider the a LOS with an elevation of 45 degrees means that for every foot out along the lne the dish is looking up one foot. At 27 degrees it is running one foot up for every two feet out. I forget the exact trig but at one mile out the signal line is up less than 1000 feet. Trees and mountains on the horizon could screw you.

Think tower!

Joe

#79 OFFLINE   Tusin

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:41 PM

Oh don't get me wrong. I get it, and respect the honesty of the tech. It is how he makes his money. Just didn't understand the point of telling me that another company (and he stated a specific one) would probably do the install.

#80 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:54 PM

What he was using was most likely a Suunto Inclinometer. http://www.geo-tools.com/tandem.htm

As for the 10 degrees up/down/left/right. Thats the buffer area that DirecTv wants to allow for future tree growth. Now if that problem tree is say 5 degrees into that 10 degree buffer AND it is fully mature, then I don't see a problem. If it is not fully mature and is still growing, then it's not a matter of if, but when you will have problems. That is what the tech is concerned about. As Joe points out, if the tech puts it in, then anytime in the next 2 years you have issues, he takes the hit. In some cases, that hit can cost him more than he will make on your job. Granted thats not your problem, it's his, and thats why he says no go.
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#81 OFFLINE   bigglebowski

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 05:15 PM

But the issue through that gap, 160' (across the street) away there is a pretty tall tree that causes LOS issues. And that tree is pretty much smack in the middle of the gap that we would need to point to in the first place.


Go to the site dishpointer.com and put your location (even if its just somewhere in town) choose the 99, 101, and 103 sats. They have an option to figure out what distance an item that is in the LOS and how much clearance you need to overcome an obstacle at a given height. The reference will be from the ground so dont forget to compensate the height at which its mounted like 20' up on the roof of house.

You will find that at 160' out you can only clear about a 30' object, on the roof maybe you clear 50'. Do you know how tall the tree is now, not to mention how much taller it will get? Even if you go to the as far back in your yard you still may not clear it.

A simple clinometer LOS tool if you have an iphone is to get an app like the carpenter ones that show the angle at which the phone is tilted. Make sure you calibrate it for approx level like from a wall in your house that you know is level. Then add something that is straight like a ruler to the long edge of the phone, if you want put a small loop on the end of the ruler like to make like a target sight. Now take the phone around with a mirror so you can see the angle or get someone to watch it and tell you when the angle says 9-10 degrees. When you look through the sight you will see the obstacles in your LOS.

#82 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 06:00 PM

Trigonometry tells us that a distant tree can be no higher than D x sine(look angle).

At 9 degrees, the sine is ~0.15643 so at 1000', a hill can be no taller than 156' above the dish elevation. At one mile, an obstruction must be less than 825' higher than the dish.

Assuming that the tree is 160' away, it can be no taller than 25' for the foreseeable future.

It seems like the local and distant trees make up something quite a bit like a peep sight aimed at 101W.

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#83 OFFLINE   eakes

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 06:22 PM

To be mathematically correct the expression is D (distance) x tangent (look angle) = H (height). At small angles the error is not much but do the calculation for 45 degrees and it's a different story!

#84 OFFLINE   joe diamond

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 09:29 PM

Trigonometry tells us that a distant tree can be no higher than D x sine(look angle).

At 9 degrees, the sine is ~0.15643 so at 1000', a hill can be no taller than 156' above the dish elevation. At one mile, an obstruction must be less than 825' higher than the dish.

Assuming that the tree is 160' away, it can be no taller than 25' for the foreseeable future.

It seems like the local and distant trees make up something quite a bit like a peep sight aimed at 101W.


Ah, I love it when you talk dirty!

I couldn't remember the trig but the point is...as you correctly point out, even small stuff that would be ignored further south is a deal breaker in the land of ten degrees elevation.

This is a job for a transit or a locklevel. Clinometers are for ball bark estimates where you have plenty of room.

After taking a horizontal shot on a correctly set transit....crank up ten degrees and hope for blue sky.

Joe

#85 OFFLINE   jdspencer

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 07:32 AM

How far back can you go from the problem tree? This may help sighting over that tree. And of course you could always install a tower.
Here's a short one.
http://www.solidsign...nna Towers&sku=

Not sure how you would you align the dish.
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