Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

30 skip acting up


  • Please log in to reply
131 replies to this topic

#61 OFFLINE   JonW

JonW

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 526 posts
Joined: Dec 21, 2006

Posted 16 November 2011 - 12:24 PM

Most likely they forgot to disable the feature on 30skip because it's an unsupported feature... but I wouldn't ignore the fact the capability is there, and the only question is when and where they use it.

For instance, with FIOS VOD, the programs cannot be recorded to your HD. You have to watch it as it's streaming. At best you can FF at 2x speed, but even this can be disabled.

As much as we may hate commercials, free TV is not free. As long as the primary source of funding for shows are commercial breaks, they're going to try to figure out ways to get us to watch them.

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#62 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Registered
  • 3,642 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:27 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a consequence of local ad insertion technology. If you think how 30 sec skip must work, it makes sense...

To jump 30 seconds forward, the software has to calculate the offset in the digital file that represents 30 seconds later. If the stream is redirected in to a different file, the offset becomes invalid and the playback drops back to the stream. This is why slip and fast forward still work, they follow the stream, not file offsets.

To fix this, they will have to look ahead on each skip and see if there is a local ad insertion coming, and recalculate offsets going in and coming back to the main file.

It might make more sense to think about how skip and slip actually do work.

The statement "If the stream is redirected in to a different file, the offset becomes invalid and the playback drops back to the stream." both makes no sense and sort of indicates one of two things:


1) you have no real idea how this works
2) you may have an idea, but don't have the wherewithall to explain it properly

But that's OK, you probably do not have the "luxury" of working with this all of the time as some of us do. The files are compressed MPEG program stream files. A few times every second or so there is metadata in the packet headers of the video elemental stream (which is one of many simultaneous streams in the PS) called a Presentation Time Stamp, which is analogous to the running timecode in analog video. Since video files can be accessed non-linearly, it needs to read this PST both to know where playback is, referenced from the beginning, in the file, and to play back the frames in order, especially since they are purposely sent out of order as part of compression efficiency and robustness.

The PST is reconstituted at record, meaning whatever it is coming in is replaced with a new clock on the recording that starts at 00:00:00:00 and continues unbroken until the end of the recording. And as you say, skip and slip use this PST to calculate where to FFWD or jump to.

But there is nothing that distinguishes where a commercial begins and a program segment ends; all of that is by now invisible. Broadcasters learned long ago that if they did put some identifying metadata into the stream that clever techies would find that data and use it to create a commercial-skipping algorithm, and for that reason they will probably never do that.

There is however metadata that can defeat FFWD; anyone who has ever played a store-bought DVD knows this well, and is why we are treated to a nice long FBI warning logo each time we insert a new DVD.

Slip and skip are also not very accurate; they are only approximate because they are only GOP-accurate, not frame-accurate. Find video with a running timer including seconds, and try to skip or slip through that; press the button ten times. Will that be exactly 3 minutes? Rarely, and only by accident. It will be different each time, and different for the same video for skip compared to slip.

This is because it would take too long to decode the frames that are 30 seconds away to find the PST; it is quicker to decode just the I-frames (which decode faster) and not all of them but every Xth one of them, which helps prevent skip and slip from having decoding latency and allows decoded video frames to represent slices of the video as it goes by for slip. The tradeoff is that it isn't exactly 30 seconds, its approximately the number of GOPs that would represent "about" 30 seconds.

While DTV and others may be using technology to thwart FFWD, it is not unusual for the DVR just to simply get confused about the PST should the file get corrupted, whereupon skip and slip, both dependent upon the ability to read PST, just fail to be able to do that at a particular corrupted part of the stream. Sometimes this throws the file back to the beginning (00:00) because it no longer can determine where it is and just defaults there.
It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#63 OFFLINE   hhh222

hhh222

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 13 posts
Joined: Sep 19, 2004

Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:56 AM

This just started happening with me the last few days.

#64 OFFLINE   Sim-X

Sim-X

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 381 posts
Joined: Sep 23, 2009

Posted 29 November 2011 - 10:39 AM

Have been noticing this as of late as well. It seems that if you skip fast enough it will still work but if the video starts playing and you go to hit skip again it will lock. Very annoying. I seem to notice the non-function skip button more on ads where the feed has changed. So not necessarily a directv commercial but a commercial that is in a different format then the channel. So like if you are watching say pawn stars on History in 720P and they insert SD commercial or maybe a HD commercial that was shot in a different format it seems to stop working on those commercials more than the channels own commercials for different shows or what not. Not 100% sure just that is what I have noticed, either way it's annoying. I usually zip through the skips pretty fast so as long as your quick enough it seems to not be an issue.

#65 OFFLINE   markrogo

markrogo

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 300 posts
Joined: Sep 18, 2007

Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:25 AM

Yeah, this is also now just happening for me too, very recently. Never happened till recently, now occurring with enough frequency I notice it.

#66 OFFLINE   Zenara25

Zenara25

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 23 posts
Joined: Jan 27, 2011

Posted 27 December 2011 - 05:41 PM

My non tech savvy husband figured out a quick fix. When 30 second skip stops working, press the remote control button 'previous channel' 2 times. Then 30 second skip works again :)

Edited by Zenara25, 28 December 2011 - 12:57 PM.


#67 OFFLINE   dishrich

dishrich

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,541 posts
Joined: Apr 22, 2002

Posted 28 December 2011 - 09:22 AM

SO glad for boards like this...finally figured out THIS was the reason why my 30 sec skip refused to work on commercials (ONLY) that DirecTV is doing during "local inserts" on Beavis & Butthead... :mad:
I guess the only way to fix this...is to switch to DISH - who DOES (only) support 30 sec skip (& not "slip") :rolleyes:

#68 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet

    The Shadow Knows!

  • Super Moderators
  • 36,906 posts
Joined: Jun 18, 2006

Posted 28 December 2011 - 09:34 AM

I believe that this issue will not be around much longer. Probably not worth switching to another provider.
Opinions expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of DBSTalk.com, DIRECTV, DISH, The Signal Group, or any other company.

#69 OFFLINE   Steveknj

Steveknj

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 926 posts
Joined: Nov 14, 2006

Posted 29 December 2011 - 02:24 PM

My cynical side was thinking that DirecTV was testing this technology out for more broader used. It's already been 2 months and not fixed, so you do have to wonder.

Think about this, with 30 second SKIP you don't see ANY of the commercials, while using FF or 30 second SLIP you can STILL see the commercial, even if it's just high speed. So, for advertisers, it's not worth them inserting any type of software to kill that, but for the skip where you can't see their ad at all, it makes sense. So with that thought, I am still leaning toward this not being a bug but a feature, and they are hoping that either people will not care or that eventually if there is any clamor it will die down.

Also, the "fix" I have found is to hit stop and then play on the remote, it completely skips the inserted commercial and allows you to use skip again.

#70 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet

    The Shadow Knows!

  • Super Moderators
  • 36,906 posts
Joined: Jun 18, 2006

Posted 29 December 2011 - 02:56 PM

With due respect your cynical side may not really have the answer here. It's a fix that will require new software and we are in the middle of the HDUI rollout. It seems more likely that getting the HDUI right for everyone is a priority.
Opinions expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of DBSTalk.com, DIRECTV, DISH, The Signal Group, or any other company.

#71 OFFLINE   BubblePuppy

BubblePuppy

    Good night dear Smoke... love you & "got your butt...&a

  • Registered
  • 5,262 posts
Joined: Nov 03, 2006

Posted 29 December 2011 - 03:01 PM

I haven't seen this issue at all.


Yea, I haven't had this issue at all with 30sec skip. I rarely watch live tv. When I do its always behind so I can skip through the commercials. So far I haven't found a commercial I couldn't skip past.
Thanks to Google search, people can appear to be smarter than they really are.

#72 OFFLINE   Eddie501

Eddie501

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 55 posts
Joined: Nov 29, 2007

Posted 29 December 2011 - 04:24 PM

As much as we may hate commercials, free TV is not free. As long as the primary source of funding for shows are commercial breaks, they're going to try to figure out ways to get us to watch them.


DirecTV is free now?

#73 OFFLINE   markrogo

markrogo

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 300 posts
Joined: Sep 18, 2007

Posted 29 December 2011 - 04:58 PM

Yea, I haven't had this issue at all with 30sec skip. I rarely watch live tv. When I do its always behind so I can skip through the commercials. So far I haven't found a commercial I couldn't skip past.


The fact you're not seeing it is more about the relative rarity of these hideous local insertion ads rather than some technological difference between your DVR and someone else's. It's not a common problem, it's just a freaking irritating one when it occurs. As Stuart says, it's also likely not one we'll be dealing with terribly much longer.

#74 OFFLINE   adam1115

adam1115

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 306 posts
Joined: Dec 16, 2003

Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:36 PM

Wow, this is such crap!

I'm watching a show, as soon as a DirecTV cinema commercial comes on, 30 second skip stops working. Next commercial, DirecTV movers commercial, still can't skip. As soon as the directv ad is over, 30 second skip works again.

I'm supposed to believe that it's not intentional that DirecTV's own ads aren't skippable by coincidence?

#75 ONLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,987 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:46 PM

Wow, this is such crap!

I'm watching a show, as soon as a DirecTV cinema commercial comes on, 30 second skip stops working. Next commercial, DirecTV movers commercial, still can't skip. As soon as the directv ad is over, 30 second skip works again.

I'm supposed to believe that it's not intentional that DirecTV's own ads aren't skippable by coincidence?

"only if" you want to understand the underlying reason this doesn't work.
The testing for what is causing this, has to do with being able to insert local ads [since if you have DirecTV, their ads are pointless]. This same testing wasn't done with the "unsupported" 30skip function. YOU HAD TO CHANGE to 30skip. Should this bother you, until this does get fixed, change over to 30slip, "the supported" option.
If DirecTV really gave a crap about wanting you to watch their ads, they would have not let you 30slip or FF through their ads.
A.K.A VOS

#76 OFFLINE   adam1115

adam1115

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 306 posts
Joined: Dec 16, 2003

Posted 31 December 2011 - 02:34 PM

has to do with being able to insert local ads [since if you have DirecTV, their ads are pointless].


How are they pointless? The ads are for DirecTV cinema and their movers program. They would be pointless if you DIDN'T have directv.

What do you mean by local ads? A directv ad is 'local'....?

Saying 'Oh, your complaint is stupid because it is 'unsupported'', I find it odd that this targets a directv ad and that the 30 second skip has worked fine as long as directv has had DVRs. Taking it away (supported or not) is not acceptable to me and many other people.

If DirecTV really gave a crap about wanting you to watch their ads, they would have not let you 30slip or FF through their ads.


I have no doubt that's coming.... Baby steps. Like Steve said earlier, skip is the only out of the methods that skips over the commercial without you seeing it.

Edited by adam1115, 31 December 2011 - 02:42 PM.


#77 OFFLINE   sigma1914

sigma1914

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,123 posts
  • LocationAllen, TX
Joined: Sep 05, 2006

Posted 31 December 2011 - 02:43 PM

How are they pointless? The ads are for DirecTV cinema and their movers program. They would be pointless if you DIDN'T have directv.

What do you mean by local ads? A directv ad is 'local'....?

Saying 'Oh, your complaint is stupid because it is 'unsupported'', I find it odd that this targets a directv ad and that the 30 second skip has worked fine as long as directv has had DVRs. Taking it away (supported or not) is not acceptable to me and many other people.



I have no doubt that's coming.... Baby steps. Like Steve said earlier, skip is the only out of the methods that skips over the commercial without you seeing it.


It's not just DirecTV ads, though.
If you stop responding to them or put them on ignore, then eventually they'll go away.

#78 ONLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,987 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:07 PM

How are they pointless? The ads are for DirecTV cinema and their movers program. They would be pointless if you DIDN'T have directv.

What do you mean by local ads? A directv ad is 'local'....?

Saying 'Oh, your complaint is stupid because it is 'unsupported'', I find it odd that this targets a directv ad and that the 30 second skip has worked fine as long as directv has had DVRs. Taking it away (supported or not) is not acceptable to me and many other people.

I have no doubt that's coming.... Baby steps. Like Steve said earlier, skip is the only out of the methods that skips over the commercial without you seeing it.

First, I didn't say anything about "stupid". :nono:
The DirecTV ads are what is being replaced by local ads.
This is the root cause.
It will get fixed.

I'm sure if you're inclined to wear a tinfoil hat, none of this will change your mind.
A.K.A VOS

#79 ONLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,987 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:11 PM

It's not just DirecTV ads, though.

But this would matter only to someone interested it what is really happening and why. Those that have already come to their own reasoning and this all is some conspiracy by DirecTV, will not care what is posted here, unless it falls inline with their ideas.
A.K.A VOS

#80 OFFLINE   sigma1914

sigma1914

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,123 posts
  • LocationAllen, TX
Joined: Sep 05, 2006

Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:49 PM

But this would matter only to someone interested it what is really happening and why. Those that have already come to their own reasoning and this all is some conspiracy by DirecTV, will not care what is posted here, unless it falls inline with their ideas.


You're right. Sometimes I hope too much from users. :)
If you stop responding to them or put them on ignore, then eventually they'll go away.




Protected By... spam firewall...And...