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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Need suggestions on new reciever...


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38 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   subeluvr

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 10:00 PM

The single most important component in ANY audio system, regardless of the channel count, is the ROOM. A room with a glaring sonic flaw will not be correctd with electronics or speakers. You can't generate a 20Hz note in a 10x15 room regardless of how badly you want to or what the salesman who sold you that subwoofer said. Your audio system's sonic profile has to be tailored to the room or you're just throwing away money and fooling yourself.

That said, to the OP...

Try the Denon. The sonic characteristics of Denon electronics work and play very well with the sonic characteristics of B&W speakers... especially the modestly priced B&Ws like your 602s.

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#22 OFFLINE   John Williams

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:11 AM

You can't generate a 20Hz note in a 10x15 room regardless of how badly you want to or what the salesman who sold you that subwoofer said.


You might want to rethink that statement, as it absolutely isn't true.
We would never listen to headphones if the above physics applied in the real world, as all we could hear is sounds above 10kHz. Obviously not true.
And our car stereo systems could never produce sounds below about 90Hz. Again obviously not true.

#23 OFFLINE   subeluvr

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:46 AM

You might want to rethink that statement, as it absolutely isn't true.
We would never listen to headphones if the above physics applied in the real world, as all we could hear is sounds above 10kHz. Obviously not true.
And our car stereo systems could never produce sounds below about 90Hz. Again obviously not true.


With respect John,

Do the math on a 20Hz note and you'll see that there's not sufficient length in either dimension in a 10x15 room so a 20Hz wave wouldn't hit itself.

I should have said you can't generate a clean 20Hz note in a 10x15 room that wouldn't cancel itself to some degree.

If you put a TDS on a car stereo in a car you'd be amazed to see what frequencies are NOT being generated cleanly. I have and the results won me a lot of bets back in the day.

#24 OFFLINE   Italfra1

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:07 PM

Thanks guys. I have all the information I need at this point. I'll look into all the recievers that you've mentioned and make a decision. My room is roughly 15ft wide x 21ft long. Not a tiny room but not huge either. I'm far from an audio expert but I've always thought that I had a good ear for sound. The thought of having acoustic panels or some geek from a sound company come out and charge me to tell me how far out from the wall and where my speakers need to be placed is a joke. I can see if you have $25k worth of high end home theatre equipment but I'm a simple guy that's just looking for a decent reciever to run his modest system. Appreciate all your information.

#25 OFFLINE   John Williams

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:53 PM

With respect John,

Do the math on a 20Hz note and you'll see that there's not sufficient length in either dimension in a 10x15 room so a 20Hz wave wouldn't hit itself.

I should have said you can't generate a clean 20Hz note in a 10x15 room that wouldn't cancel itself to some degree.

If you put a TDS on a car stereo in a car you'd be amazed to see what frequencies are NOT being generated cleanly. I have and the results won me a lot of bets back in the day.


So we are now in agreement that the frequency's are reproduced no matter the size of the listening environment.
If you have used a TDS system (TEF25 or the old TEF20 maybe?) then you have also seen that regardless of dimensions, destructive interference can and does occur at all frequencies - either due to boundary loading, reflections, standing waves, etc...

One thing I'm sure we agree on, the listening environment makes the biggest difference in a sound system. Which will lead me to the next quote of the OP.

#26 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:59 PM

I should have said you can't generate a clean 20Hz note in a 10x15 room that wouldn't cancel itself to some degree.


Or vibrate the trunk, windows, and everything within 30' irritating the hell out of anyone else in the grocery store parking lot having to listen to it.

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#27 OFFLINE   John Williams

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:27 PM

The thought of having acoustic panels or some geek from a sound company come out and charge me to tell me how far out from the wall and where my speakers need to be placed is a joke. I can see if you have $25k worth of high end home theatre equipment but I'm a simple guy that's just looking for a decent reciever to run his modest system.


But the joke maybe on you. We are trying to make you understand how much the room, placement of speakers, and listening positions have on the sound - WAY!!!! more than any silly amount of money you will spend on equipment. This is a cold hard fact.
More than once I have done an audio system for a customer (an example of $10K comes to mind), that I designed, installed, and calibrated. The customer was thrilled with it and wanted me to look at a friend's system. The friend had spend well over $50K on his system and sounded meh.... (translation: not so good). Why! Because either him or someone else (I didn't ask) had just bought a bunch of equipment and hooked it up with no regard to the listening environment (i.e. they didn't really know what they were doing).


The conclusion to this:

If you just want a surround sound system and not spend a lot of money... great, that's fine. Do take the time to research and learn to try to get it as ideal as possible. The difference in a budget sound system sounding good or sounding like crap is how well you follow industry standard guidelines for this kind of stuff. And there are industry standard guidelines (a lot of them), you just have to really read and research the topic.

If you want to have really great sound and spend a lot of money on equipment, then you NEED to hire a professional as part of the budget to help with the room. Only 1 exception to this: If you are already a good sound DIY that has a lot of expereince working with rooms and sound systems.


Again:
If you were happy with the Marantz receiver and don't want the possiblitly of making a mistake in another brand, then get another Marantz (it is a good receiver). If you are happy with the sound you are getting and have no desire to improve upon it, then don't worry about the 'joke' of having it setup properly either. You'll never know and it will be fine - whether it was off just a little or a lot.

#28 OFFLINE   Italfra1

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 12:14 PM

But the joke maybe on you. We are trying to make you understand how much the room, placement of speakers, and listening positions have on the sound - WAY!!!! more than any silly amount of money you will spend on equipment. This is a cold hard fact.
More than once I have done an audio system for a customer (an example of $10K comes to mind), that I designed, installed, and calibrated. The customer was thrilled with it and wanted me to look at a friend's system. The friend had spend well over $50K on his system and sounded meh.... (translation: not so good). Why! Because either him or someone else (I didn't ask) had just bought a bunch of equipment and hooked it up with no regard to the listening environment (i.e. they didn't really know what they were doing).


The conclusion to this:

If you just want a surround sound system and not spend a lot of money... great, that's fine. Do take the time to research and learn to try to get it as ideal as possible. The difference in a budget sound system sounding good or sounding like crap is how well you follow industry standard guidelines for this kind of stuff. And there are industry standard guidelines (a lot of them), you just have to really read and research the topic.

If you want to have really great sound and spend a lot of money on equipment, then you NEED to hire a professional as part of the budget to help with the room. Only 1 exception to this: If you are already a good sound DIY that has a lot of expereince working with rooms and sound systems.


Again:
If you were happy with the Marantz receiver and don't want the possiblitly of making a mistake in another brand, then get another Marantz (it is a good receiver). If you are happy with the sound you are getting and have no desire to improve upon it, then don't worry about the 'joke' of having it setup properly either. You'll never know and it will be fine - whether it was off just a little or a lot.


Thanks for all the information. It all makes sense and I appreciate you explaining it in a way that makes total sense to me. With my current speaker configuration, HDTV, blu ray player and more I'm probably into my system for close to $10k dollars. Maybe I'll bite the bullet and have an audio pro come out and dial in my entire system. It would give me piece of mind to know that it's hooked up correctly and I'm getting the most out of my equipment and listening room. It's a new year, maybe it's time to look at this differently than I have in the past. I just need to find someone that I feel confident with to dial in my system. I probably need to find a high end company that designs home theatre systems and start there. I'm in Northern CA so I'll start to do some research on that.

Thanks for all the info.

#29 OFFLINE   John Williams

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 11:29 AM

Maybe I'll bite the bullet and have an audio pro come out and dial in my entire system. It would give me piece of mind to know that it's hooked up correctly and I'm getting the most out of my equipment and listening room. It's a new year, maybe it's time to look at this differently than I have in the past. I just need to find someone that I feel confident with to dial in my system. I probably need to find a high end company that designs home theatre systems and start there. I'm in Northern CA so I'll start to do some research on that.


This is where you need to be careful. There are NOT a lot of audio professionals out there, a lot that will tell you they are however and take your money.
That link I posted to HAA website has a calibrator finder. That would be a good start. HAA members have usually spent a bit of money into the research, training, and test equipment involved and take thier work seriously. And with pride. However if there is one close to you, he might be charging more than you want to spend or need.
A big highend company may not be the best bet either. I generally find in talking with these other dealers, they are all about the bottom line. Meaning: least amount of money invested, most amount of money charged, for least amount of work.
A small one man shop could be an issue as well. As a lot are 'fly-by-nights' and are gone next year. Never really having been a good tech at what they were doing.

Conclusion: You are looking for someone who has been doing it a long time. Has test equipment (more than just a sound level meter). Seems to enjoy what he's doing. And takes the time to explain to you what he's doing.

#30 OFFLINE   subeluvr

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 12:13 PM

Conclusion: You are looking for someone who has been doing it a long time. Has test equipment (more than just a sound level meter). Seems to enjoy what he's doing. And takes the time to explain to you what he's doing.


Italfra1,

And when you have found a couple of those... pick one that can hear and has listened to live music rather than a tech who lives and dies by test equipment. I've done very well correcting systems and rooms that have been set up by techies. They have their place but a well trained and well experienced ear has it's advantages when teamed up with the right test equipment.

You've been happy with your Marantz but in today's economy that doesn't mean a brand new Marantz will sound the same. Narrow down your choices to two and get them both in your room. Plug them both in, turn them on, and allow a couple days for them both to cook and then listen.

The important thing is that YOU like the way your system sounds in your room and not how it looks on an RTA or TDS.

The real trick to home audio or home theater is top know WHEN to say WHEN.

#31 OFFLINE   Italfra1

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 01:54 PM

Italfra1,

And when you have found a couple of those... pick one that can hear and has listened to live music rather than a tech who lives and dies by test equipment. I've done very well correcting systems and rooms that have been set up by techies. They have their place but a well trained and well experienced ear has it's advantages when teamed up with the right test equipment.

You've been happy with your Marantz but in today's economy that doesn't mean a brand new Marantz will sound the same. Narrow down your choices to two and get them both in your room. Plug them both in, turn them on, and allow a couple days for them both to cook and then listen.

The important thing is that YOU like the way your system sounds in your room and not how it looks on an RTA or TDS.

The real trick to home audio or home theater is top know WHEN to say WHEN.



John & Subeluvr,

I couldn't agree more. Alot of what you are saying is probably what has scared me off in the past. Always the fear of being over charged by someone who really might not know much more than I do about sound. I'll take your advice and do my homework when looking for a sound pro in my area. I wouldn't even consider Geek Squad or something like that. I'll find a pro and do my usual interrogation to make sure I'm confident he's up to my standards. And like you said, someone with real sound experience over a tech who lives and dies by test equipment. I plan on being right there with him the entire time.

Thanks.

#32 OFFLINE   subeluvr

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 02:12 PM

Italfra1,

I've had more success using recording engineers and musicians than techs although a blend of both works very nicely. The ten most impressive audio systems, from modestly priced to 6 figures, I've ever heard over decade + in the biz were set up with gear and then finished by people who could hear.

An RTA or TDS can't tell the difference between the way a Fender bass and a Rickenbacker sound or a Strat and a Les Paul sound and those are the subtleties you want in audio reproduction not noise and the ash tray walking across the coffee table

Often these forum discussions go off track and get sideways and this one really has. John and I were making an empirical point (at least I was) that the room is a component in the system and should be considered. Some rooms are built to be awful sonically and VERY few are really sonically good. since you're not complaining about BOOMY bass or NASALLY mids or voice, your room doesn't appear to have a gross problem.

You have a room with a system and you like the way it sounds. So far so good. You want-need a new receiver... simple enough.

Based on your preference for B&W over Polk or Klipsch (no offense to either brand) and what you've posted I don't think you need to spend money other than as you wanted, a new receiver and you're more than capable of picking the one that sounds better to you.

#33 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 01:30 AM

Obviously your budget is going to determine what you do. However even simple things such as rugs, wall decorations (made for acoustic reasons) can do wonders. Most people will hear things but since they don't want to focus on it you don't notice how much it's impacting something until it's really gone.

Find a good company in your area that has done some installations and then ask for referrals. Most legit companies will do this and usually most people are more than happy to show off their setup to someone. If it sounds good to you then they do good enough work.

Sensors and calibration tools are great but it's your ear that tells you what is good and what isn't. My whole point was that you might want to get the receiver that has the options you want but doesn't have to be the most expensive and you can spend that other cash in the room making everything sound better.

#34 OFFLINE   Italfra1

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:15 AM

Obviously your budget is going to determine what you do. However even simple things such as rugs, wall decorations (made for acoustic reasons) can do wonders. Most people will hear things but since they don't want to focus on it you don't notice how much it's impacting something until it's really gone.

Find a good company in your area that has done some installations and then ask for referrals. Most legit companies will do this and usually most people are more than happy to show off their setup to someone. If it sounds good to you then they do good enough work.

Sensors and calibration tools are great but it's your ear that tells you what is good and what isn't. My whole point was that you might want to get the receiver that has the options you want but doesn't have to be the most expensive and you can spend that other cash in the room making everything sound better.


Sounds like good adive. Personally I've always thought my system sounded great with my old Marantz SR 7500 and I'm well aware that upgrading to the Marantz SR 6006 might not make much of a difference sonically, and I'm fine with that. It has alot of new bells & whistles that my older model didn't have. If sound improves that will be a bonus. I fully understand all the points that everyone has made about the importance of the room, speaker placement, etc. I'll do my research and find a knowledgable audio person to help me fine tune my system.

Being a guitar player and music lover my entire life I'm pretty confident I have a good handle on what I'm looking for. We might have gotton off topic a few times during this thread but that's pretty common and the feedback has been great as always. Thanks.

#35 OFFLINE   iceturkee

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:58 PM

sorry for sounding negative but when did marantz start making relevant audio receivers again? they were among the best in the business in the early to mid 1970's but went way downhill after.

#36 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 03:52 PM

sorry for sounding negative but when did marantz start making relevant audio receivers again? they were among the best in the business in the early to mid 1970's but went way downhill after.


Marantz seemed to have made somewhat of a comeback in the last 5 years or so. Although I have the same impression you have, Marantz was the Sh** back in the early to mid 70's. All the adults I knew that were music fanatics back in the day had Marantz receivers, with either Garrard or Dual turntables. Of course the elite had Macintosh, etc..I was a Technics person as a kid, moved on to Pioneer in college years, Yamaha(RX-V2090) after college, and now on to my 3rd Denon. Next step will be to add a moderately expensive used amp(probably a used Rotel RMB-1095) to my feature filled Denon AVR since I just got my Paradigm Studio 60 v.5 this past week. :D I have had this smile all week since I hooked up the new mains..

#37 OFFLINE   iceturkee

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 04:45 PM

My first receiver in 1974 was a marantz! I loved that thing.

#38 OFFLINE   subeluvr

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 10:50 PM

I go back to Saul's really good stuff... 10b tuner, 7c preamp, and a pair of 8b amps.

I have fond memories of the 2325 receiver... oh the blue lights... made my JBL L100s really rip!

#39 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 09:02 AM

Remember - Marantz now = Denon (which is fine, of course).

If you need a new receiver, try the Denon AVR-4311. Audyssey XT32 is an AMAZING technology!




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