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DVR Limit for MRV?


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33 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 02:27 PM

I had a hard time keeping ten HRs on my Ethernet system. And I had a bad router. The bad router didn't seem to cause any problems with the DECA system. I changed mine to a Cisco E4200 Version 1. They've just introduced the E4200 version 2 router. Here's a link. I think that's probably the best home router available. Will that solve his problems? No idea.

I had no idea the TS wasn't using a DECA system. Ten was the best I could do with my Ethernet MRV system and that was stretching things a bit. I really think he'd be better off with the DECA system. He sure did build a nice Ethernet system, tho.

Rich

The whole DECA cloud, is really no more than a good switch that keep the traffic off your home network. All of the rest is handled by the router.
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#22 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:21 PM

The whole DECA cloud, is really no more than a good switch that keep the traffic off your home network. All of the rest is handled by the router.


What I was trying to say was the DECA system works better than the Ethernet system does. I think.

The thing's in the mail. You should have it by Memorial Day... :lol:

Rich

#23 OFFLINE   DarkLogix

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:45 PM

DECA is basically variable size 100Mbit switch with a limit of 16 ports and only 170Mbit of "usable"(ie after the Deca overhead is counted off) bandwidth available per port (ie less than Ethernet) with some Layer2 QOS (or just some odd marketing that claims it has Layer2 QOS)

after 16 Deca nodes Deca based on what info is out there can become less optimal as a Deca to Deca via Ethernet bridge is a bottle neck that may or may not cause issues based on the number of streams going over the weak link, where as a full Ethernet network is possible to not have the bottleneck at all

If someone would make an RF deca bridge like whats built into the SWM16 that would be better but you'd still be limited to 16 deca nodes per cloud

#24 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 09:59 PM

I have been around networking long enough to remember when ALL Ethernet networks ran through coax (I even remember thick net, vampire taps and DIX cables - I fact, I still have a thick Ethernet terminator around somewhere).

The basic design of DECA (and MOCA more generally) is focused on producing a highly stable, reasonably high performance, and self configuring network for the exchange of audio and video data. There are trade offs, like a 16 instead of 256 node limit, but the end result has met its design goals.

While, theoretically, bridging two DECA networks together via traditional Ethernet leaves the DECA bandwidth as a potential bottleneck (vis a vis the Ethernet bandwidth) there is still sufficient bandwidth for at least 10 simultaneous HD streams. I have to believe that this is sufficient for any residential application. Actually, I'd be more concerned about the ability of the CCK bridges to pass anything close to the full bandwidth of the DECA network. Since they are designed to enable Internet connectivity, and 90% of all residential Internet connections are below 15 Mbps, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the CCK has a hard time passing more than 25Mbps.

I don't know what tweaks DirecTV added to MOCA to produce DECA, but I don't find it hard to believe that they designed their MRV software to take advantage of whatever tweaks are there, with the result of some loss of stability on large implementations running on pure Ethernet.

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Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#25 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:20 PM

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the CCK has a hard time passing more than 25Mbps.

I would since I've seen it higher, when using DirecTV2PC, even through the wireless leg of my CCK.
It's safe to say the ethernet is up to the same 100 Mb/s of the receiver's ports.
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#26 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 05:57 AM

Wow! That's a lot of DirecTv2PC sessions to get close to 100 Mbps! :)

Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
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Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#27 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:21 AM

Wow! That's a lot of DirecTv2PC sessions to get close to 100 Mbps! :)

MPEG-2 OTA and trickplay, won't get to 100 Mb/s, but can get into the 40s
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#28 OFFLINE   DarkLogix

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 08:57 AM

the reasoning for when using a deca-eth-deca to span 2 deca clouds might not come into play but a scenario could be worked out that would break it

ie 10x D2P plus downloading VOD, etc and if you hit the limit of 100Mbit over the bridge then packets will get dropped, now how D* equipment will show this could vary, freezing picture, extra lag, etc

but with the apparent 10 DVR limit being forced on the new HD GUI it might take some trying to get there

Edited by DarkLogix, 06 January 2012 - 09:23 AM.


#29 ONLINE   lugnutathome

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:32 AM

the reasoning for when using a deca-eth-deca to span 2 deca clouds might not come into play but a scenario could be worked out that would break it

ie 10x D2P plus downloading VOD, etc and if you hit the limit of 100Mbit over the bridge then packets will get dropped, now how D* equipment will show this could vary, freezing picture, extra lag, etc

but with the apparent 10 DVR limit being forced on the new HD GUI it might take some trying to get there


IF there is a hard limit being set now in the firmware could they PHULEASE match that in the status reporting for Whole Home. The current limit of five in the status display has been unsuitable for many of us since it was implemented.

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#30 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 12:30 PM

the reasoning for when using a deca-eth-deca to span 2 deca clouds might not come into play but a scenario could be worked out that would break it

ie 10x D2P plus downloading VOD, etc and if you hit the limit of 100Mbit over the bridge then packets will get dropped, now how D* equipment will show this could vary, freezing picture, extra lag, etc

but with the apparent 10 DVR limit being forced on the new HD GUI it might take some trying to get there


What "10 DVR limit"? Could you explain that?

Rich

#31 OFFLINE   DBSNewbie

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:10 PM

What "10 DVR limit"? Could you explain that?

Rich


The wording, "10 DVR Limit" is very misleading.

MRV is able accommodate more than 10 DVRs; however, where there appears to be a limit is the number of items in each of the Unified Playlists for each receiver (whether it be a networked DVR or networked non-DVR).

In my system, for example, there are 14 total receivers. 13 of them are networked together and of those 13, 11 happen to be HD DVRs.

Each networked receiver is able to display a Unified Playlist. However, the contents of the unified list from any given receiver can only be taken from the hard drives of only 10 DVRs (including its own if a DVR) at any particular time.

If I were to reset a DVR whose contents are not displayed within the Unified Playlist of another networked receiver, then those programs will become present on the other receiver after the reboot. However, in doing so, the contents from the hard drive of another DVR (at random) will get bumped off to make room for the contents from the hard drive of the rebooted DVR.

Rich, is this how your system behaves? In your PM that you had sent me, you mentioned that once in while you'll notice that a particular recorded program would be missing from your Unified List. When that does occur, you'll do a reboot of the DVR in which it was on, and after the reboot, the program will find its way onto the Unified Playlist of the receiver you were using. But, have you ever noticed if other items had been removed from the playlist by doing the reboot?

You also mentioned to me that you record the same programs over several DVRs for redundancy. Perhaps this could be a reason why all Folders/Programs always appear on your Unified Playlists - even though it could only be showing the items from only 10 hard drives? With all the titles of all shows and names of all folders apparently showing up on the list, maybe it's difficult to notice if any items are actually missing?

VOS and you have suggested that my problem could lie with the router. I have done a firmware upgrade to it and it still has not solved anything. I am using a Linksys RVS4000. I know it may not be the most robust router out there, but I don't think it's bottom of the rung, entry-level either.

So, I am pretty sure the limitation I am experiencing is with the receivers themselves, as they can only populate a Playlist from only 10 hard drives at a time. The iPad app can populate a Playlist from all 11 hard drives and can control all 13 networked receivers, so the router does appear to allow the network to "see" all receivers and can tell "who's who" and tell 'em "what" to do.

Edited by DBSNewbie, 06 January 2012 - 06:00 PM.
Clarification on some points

Slimline, WB616 (2), SWM8 (2), OTA, MRV (U)
Den: Sony KDS-60A3000 -> HR20-700; Sony KDL-40S2000 (5) -> HR20-700 (2) & HR20-100 (3)
Master Bed: Kuro PDP-5020FD -> HR34-700
Master Bath: Sony KDL-26S3000 + PSP -> HR24-200
Daughter's: Sony KDL-40W3000 -> HR20-700
Son's: Sony KDL-40W3000 -> HR24-500
Kitchen: Sharp 20" -> H24-700
Guest: Sharp 20" -> H20-100
Patio: SunbriteTV 3220 -> H25-500
Living Room: Sony 42" XBR Plasma -> HR20-100

Diagram of Setup

#32 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 11:42 AM

The wording, "10 DVR Limit" is very misleading.

MRV is able accommodate more than 10 DVRs; however, where there appears to be a limit is the number of items in each of the Unified Playlists for each receiver (whether it be a networked DVR or networked non-DVR).

In my system, for example, there are 14 total receivers. 13 of them are networked together and of those 13, 11 happen to be HD DVRs.

Each networked receiver is able to display a Unified Playlist. However, the contents of the unified list from any given receiver can only be taken from the hard drives of only 10 DVRs (including its own if a DVR) at any particular time.

If I were to reset a DVR whose contents are not displayed within the Unified Playlist of another networked receiver, then those programs will become present on the other receiver after the reboot. However, in doing so, the contents from the hard drive of another DVR (at random) will get bumped off to make room for the contents from the hard drive of the rebooted DVR.

Rich, is this how your system behaves? In your PM that you had sent me, you mentioned that once in while you'll notice that a particular recorded program would be missing from your Unified List. When that does occur, you'll do a reboot of the DVR in which it was on, and after the reboot, the program will find its way onto the Unified Playlist of the receiver you were using. But, have you ever noticed if other items had been removed from the playlist by doing the reboot?


When I reboot for that reason, I always end up with what appears to be a complete UPL on that particular HR. I have no idea what happens to the other HRs.

Let me go a bit further into how I view my MRV: I only use two 24-500s and one 20-700 to view content (call them Clients). The rest of the twelve HRs are used as backups or used by my son, wife and granddaughter as Clients. So, I've got six Client HRs and six that are used primarily as servers, we really never look at anything on the Servers, in other words, they are rarely used as Clients.

My wife and son both know that a reboot is necessary if they don't have something on their personal HRs.

The above is how MRV has evolved in our home. Works really well.

You also mentioned to me that you record the same programs over several DVRs for redundancy. Perhaps this could be a reason why all Folders/Programs always appear on your Unified Playlists - even though it could only be showing the items from only 10 hard drives? With all the titles of all shows and names of all folders apparently showing up on the list, maybe it's difficult to notice if any items are actually missing?


Right now, only Dexter and Terra Nova have as many as eight redundant recordings on them for each episode. So, I can't really answer your question.

VOS and you have suggested that my problem could lie with the router. I have done a firmware upgrade to it and it still has not solved anything. I am using a Linksys RVS4000. I know it may not be the most robust router out there, but I don't think it's bottom of the rung, entry-level either.


If VOS "suggests" something, I'd listen. I had a terrible two year Internet problem with Cablevision. One of their more knowledgeable techs ran a test on my old router (also a Cisco) and found problems with it. I ended up calling their (CV) headquarters and finally got the Net problems solved and bought a good router, again a Cisco. No more problems with the Net, so far. I don't pretend to know what the router does with MRV.

So, I am pretty sure the limitation I am experiencing is with the receivers themselves, as they can only populate a Playlist from only 10 hard drives at a time. The iPad app can populate a Playlist from all 11 hard drives and can control all 13 networked receivers, so the router does appear to allow the network to "see" all receivers and can tell "who's who" and tell 'em "what" to do.


Might be correct, but remember, you don't have a DECA system and the Ethernet system I used until I got the DECA install did have a problem picking up all my HRs. I think, for a brief time, I did have eleven HRs on the Ethernet MRV, but it couldn't sustain them all for very long.

Rich

#33 OFFLINE   DBSNewbie

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 10:52 PM

When I reboot for that reason, I always end up with what appears to be a complete UPL on that particular HR. I have no idea what happens to the other HRs...


Rich


Are you able to control your 6 "servers" (along with your 6 "clients") to set up a recording (partial or single, short program) on each one of your 12 DVRs of the exact same program?

If you cannot set up the recordings locally, can you do remote scheduling?

Anyhow, I am curious to see how the Folder in your Playlist, which contains the programs that had just been recorded, is displayed on one or any other one of your TVs.

It would help if the program you select to record is of a show that you have never recorded before. This way, the title will be unique and the items in the new Folder showing up on your playlist would only be of the ones that had just been recorded.

For example, let's say that you DO NOT have any recordings (partial or entire program) of SportsCenter on any of your 12 DVRs. If you were to go ahead and make a recording (partial or otherwise) on each of your 12 DVRs of SportsCenter on Channel 206 (ESPNHD) at 8:00 pm PST, what would show if you were to go to your Playlist from any given client/TV? How many items would show on the new Folder on the list entitled, "SportsCenter"?

Would it show, "12 New/12 Total"? Or would it show, "10 New/10 Total"?

If it does show "12", then it would support the assertion that MRV is not limited to 10 DVR servers at a time.

On my system, if I were to make identical recordings on the 11 DVRs, the Playlist from any of the 13 networked receivers would show "10 New/10 Total".

On the iPad app, on the other hand, it would show "11 New/11 Total". And I'm pretty sure and certain that if I were to add a couple more DVRs to my system, the iPad would then show "13 New/13 Total"

I believe the limitation appears to be within the software of the receivers, allowing them to only acquire 10 DVR servers at a time.

Of course, it would make me happy to be proven wrong. If your system shows, "12 New/12 Total", then I'll be convinced that the problem is either with my router, or my system being on ethernet rather than DECA, or both.

Thanks,

D
Slimline, WB616 (2), SWM8 (2), OTA, MRV (U)
Den: Sony KDS-60A3000 -> HR20-700; Sony KDL-40S2000 (5) -> HR20-700 (2) & HR20-100 (3)
Master Bed: Kuro PDP-5020FD -> HR34-700
Master Bath: Sony KDL-26S3000 + PSP -> HR24-200
Daughter's: Sony KDL-40W3000 -> HR20-700
Son's: Sony KDL-40W3000 -> HR24-500
Kitchen: Sharp 20" -> H24-700
Guest: Sharp 20" -> H20-100
Patio: SunbriteTV 3220 -> H25-500
Living Room: Sony 42" XBR Plasma -> HR20-100

Diagram of Setup

#34 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:46 PM

Are you able to control your 6 "servers" (along with your 6 "clients") to set up a recording (partial or single, short program) on each one of your 12 DVRs of the exact same program?

If you cannot set up the recordings locally, can you do remote scheduling?

Anyhow, I am curious to see how the Folder in your Playlist, which contains the programs that had just been recorded, is displayed on one or any other one of your TVs.

It would help if the program you select to record is of a show that you have never recorded before. This way, the title will be unique and the items in the new Folder showing up on your playlist would only be of the ones that had just been recorded.

For example, let's say that you DO NOT have any recordings (partial or entire program) of SportsCenter on any of your 12 DVRs. If you were to go ahead and make a recording (partial or otherwise) on each of your 12 DVRs of SportsCenter on Channel 206 (ESPNHD) at 8:00 pm PST, what would show if you were to go to your Playlist from any given client/TV? How many items would show on the new Folder on the list entitled, "SportsCenter"?

Would it show, "12 New/12 Total"? Or would it show, "10 New/10 Total"?

If it does show "12", then it would support the assertion that MRV is not limited to 10 DVR servers at a time.

On my system, if I were to make identical recordings on the 11 DVRs, the Playlist from any of the 13 networked receivers would show "10 New/10 Total".

On the iPad app, on the other hand, it would show "11 New/11 Total". And I'm pretty sure and certain that if I were to add a couple more DVRs to my system, the iPad would then show "13 New/13 Total"

I believe the limitation appears to be within the software of the receivers, allowing them to only acquire 10 DVR servers at a time.

Of course, it would make me happy to be proven wrong. If your system shows, "12 New/12 Total", then I'll be convinced that the problem is either with my router, or my system being on ethernet rather than DECA, or both.

Thanks,

D


Good questions. I don't do any remote schedulings. I don't use the iPad app at all, in fact, I don't have any use for an iPad, so I gave it to my son.

I moved two HRs to two different locations the other day and my MRV now needs to be properly reset and I don't feel like doing it. After the next NR comes down and I HAVE to do a proper reset, I'll schedule 12 episodes of the same show and we'll see what happens. Have patience, I'm almost terminally lazy.

Rich




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