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Green Label splitter Question.


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22 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   boatlover

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 11:15 PM

I have a question about splitters.

I am going to be upgrading my system to SWM, whole home w/cck. My family room is pre wired (rg6) with 4 outlets around the room to make furniture arrangement easy.
These outlets are Daisy chained together using 1 output of the splitter to feed the wall plate and the other output to the next splitter/wall plates. The spacing between outlets is about 8 ft. Only 1 receiver will be used in this room. This has worked well with my old Dtivo as the wife can move the furniture and there are not cables all over the place.

If I use the green label splitters will this continue to work with a SWM setup?

Thanks Dave

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#2 OFFLINE   Scott Kocourek

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 11:17 PM

Green label splitters are designed to work with SWiM and Deca.

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#3 OFFLINE   Kevin F

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 11:41 PM

I would terminate the connections that aren't used though temporarily.

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#4 OFFLINE   boatlover

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 09:54 AM

Thanks for the reply's.
I will get the splitters and install them. Don't think they would be included in the free install. I will also get terminators for the unused ports.

#5 OFFLINE   NR4P

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:35 PM

When you get SWM and WHDVR, the tech is supposed to upgrade the splitters to green label. I know mine were without asking.

The issue is also the Power Inserter. Depending where it is placed such as at the receiver, the route through splitters needs to be through power passing ports.

#6 OFFLINE   wallfishman

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 12:49 AM

I have a question about splitters.

I am going to be upgrading my system to SWM, whole home w/cck. My family room is pre wired (rg6) with 4 outlets around the room to make furniture arrangement easy.
These outlets are Daisy chained together using 1 output of the splitter to feed the wall plate and the other output to the next splitter/wall plates. The spacing between outlets is about 8 ft. Only 1 receiver will be used in this room. This has worked well with my old Dtivo as the wife can move the furniture and there are not cables all over the place.

If I use the green label splitters will this continue to work with a SWM setup?

Thanks Dave


You do not want to daisy chain through 4 splitters to do 1 tv. VOS will tell you the loss on that but it will be substantial. get barrels. whatever outlets you are not using take them apart and just join the 2 cables together. wrench tighten them. then your signal loss will be minimal. If you move TV again you just need to take the wallplate apart at that time n undo barrel n hook it up to that wallplate

#7 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 08:29 AM

I have a question about splitters.

These outlets are Daisy chained together using 1 output of the splitter to feed the wall plate and the other output to the next splitter/wall plates. The spacing between outlets is about 8 ft. Only 1 receiver will be used in this room. This has worked well with my old Dtivo as the wife can move the furniture and there are not cables all over the place.

If I use the green label splitters will this continue to work with a SWM setup?

Thanks Dave

Nobody in the right mind would wire them this way.
In the simplest terms, a 2-way divides the power by 2, so:
first wall plate has 50%
second has 25%
third has only 12.5%
"and so on", reducing the signal by half each time.

As wallfishman has said, remove all the splitters and use barrel connectors to join the coax so you have only one wall plate connected.
A.K.A VOS

#8 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 01:19 PM

I have a question about splitters.

I am going to be upgrading my system to SWM, whole home w/cck. My family room is pre wired (rg6) with 4 outlets around the room to make furniture arrangement easy.
These outlets are Daisy chained together using 1 output of the splitter to feed the wall plate and the other output to the next splitter/wall plates. The spacing between outlets is about 8 ft. Only 1 receiver will be used in this room. This has worked well with my old Dtivo as the wife can move the furniture and there are not cables all over the place.

If I use the green label splitters will this continue to work with a SWM setup?

Thanks Dave



Nobody in the right mind would wire them this way.
In the simplest terms, a 2-way divides the power by 2, so:
first wall plate has 50%
second has 25%
third has only 12.5%
"and so on", reducing the signal by half each time.

As wallfishman has said, remove all the splitters and use barrel connectors to join the coax so you have only one wall plate connected.


Looks like I'm not "in my right mind".

The third and fourth wallplate each get one-eighth of the signal (12.5% splitter share, minus coax loss), just as receivers connected to an 8-way splitter get one eighth shares.

Not everyone is willing or able to run new wires in an apartment with finished walls. If the total coax length from the dish to the last wallplate is under 200 feet, this should work.

I just stumbled on this thread while searching for technical info on green splitter loss characteristics. Yesterday, I attended a seminar on installing the DRE2 system in hotels, and was was hoping to find something regarding the technical "wizardry" that gets green 4-way splitters output port isolation values of typically 14dB, versus the more typical -25dB published isolation value of common cable TV splitters.

Has anyone found a schematic for the internal construction of green labeled splitters? I am wondering if they diplex internally before splitting, and if the L-band isolation values are more normal.

Edited by AntAltMike, 23 May 2012 - 05:04 PM.


#9 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:07 PM

Has anyone found a schematic for the internal construction of green labeled splitters? I am wondering if they diplex internally before splitting, and if the L-band isolation values are more normal.

I haven't and it would take opening up a good splitter to find out (:nono:).
I just tried to do some testing and couldn't get any indication that the SWiM isolation is any less than one that isn't green labeled. I can't say 100% that this proves the isolation is the same, but merely I couldn't find any sign of 10 dB or more difference.
A.K.A VOS

#10 OFFLINE   Floyd

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 09:14 PM


The third and info on green splitter loss characteristics. Yesterday, I attended a seminar on installing the DRE2 system in hotels, and was was hoping to find something regarding the technical "wizardry" that gets green 4-way splitters output port isolation values of typically 14dB, versus the more typical -25dB published isolation value of common cable TV splitters.


Here's the specs from SolidSignal:
______________________________________________
8-way Wide Band Satellite Splitter, One Port DC Path

Satellite input frequency range 2 - 2150 MHz
Insertion loss 18 max dB
Isolation internal 20 @ 950 - 2150 MHz, 4 @ 2 - 30 MHz dB
EMI > 75 dB
Operating temperature range -34 ~ +60 (-30 ~ +140) C°(F°)
___________________________________________________

I suppose the isolation is less to allow for MoCA communication between the receivers connected to the ports on the green splitters. I think the frequencies used for MoCA are 5-40mhz, and there is more isolation at higher frequencies, since they are required to work up to almost 2000mhz to carry the 9 bands of data from the SWM unit to the receivers.
Mike: was the training for Phase1 or Phase2 ?
I'm just about to close on several DRE projects and now I have to go to Little Rock to take the Phase2 training before I can continue.

Edited by Floyd, 23 May 2012 - 09:26 PM.


#11 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:13 PM

Here's the specs from SolidSignal:
______________________________________________
8-way Wide Band Satellite Splitter, One Port DC Path

Satellite input frequency range 2 - 2150 MHz
Insertion loss 18 max dB
Isolation internal 20 @ 950 - 2150 MHz, 4 @ 2 - 30 MHz dB
EMI > 75 dB
Operating temperature range -34 ~ +60 (-30 ~ +140) C°(F°)
___________________________________________________

I suppose the isolation is less to allow for MoCA communication between the receivers connected to the ports on the green splitters. I think the frequencies used for MoCA are 5-40mhz, and there is more isolation at higher frequencies, since they are required to work up to almost 2000mhz to carry the 9 bands of data from the SWM unit to the receivers.
Mike: was the training for Phase1 or Phase2 ?
I'm just about to close on several DRE projects and now I have to go to Little Rock to take the Phase2 training before I can continue.

I'm not too sure of those numbers.
DECA is 475-625 MHz, and the loss between output ports has been measured @ 8 dB on the 2-way, 11 dB on the 4-way, & 14 dB on the 8-way.
The SWiM channels are 974 to 1790+ MHz, which I used to compare the isolation between a green 4-way & a Skywalker 4-way, but couldn't find enough difference between the two and the skywalker has 23 dB isolation.
The difference between 20 or 23 dB couldn't be measured, but since the DECA can be, and is "only" 11 dB, clearly the DECA frequencies are lower than the SWiM, and the 2-30 MHz must be higher than 4 dB.
A.K.A VOS

#12 OFFLINE   randyk47

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 06:58 AM

I have a question about green label splitters. A month or so ago DirecTV came in and installed MRV in my house. I already had SWM up and running from a self-install some four years ago. I showed the tech the SWM-8 and four-way splitter and he said "Great. We're good to go. Our records didn't show you had SWM." As I said this was some four weeks ago and everything seems to be working just fine but I noticed the other day that he didn't replace the old Zinwell four-way splitter at the SWM-8 with a green label splitter. Guess I shouldn't worry about that since it's working?
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#13 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:01 AM

I don't see why Solid Signal is even bothering to publish the L-band frequency isolation. I only inquired about it because learning it might let me better speculate on how they developed lower isolation loss at cable TV frequencies.

The training seminar said that there was supposed to be no more than 45 dB loss at 600 MHz from any one receiver's satellite RF port to any others. Since we in the RF distribution system design business have never considered output-port-to-port to be a valid signal path, it never went into any loss calculations we did. Not only was it over 20 dB in off-the shelf hybrid splitters, which our loss budgets couldn't absorb, it was brutally non-linear across the channel, as evidenced by how ugly the analog pictures looked when developed from a signal that had passed the "wrong way" through a splitter, even if the signal strength, as measured by a signal strength meter on the +1.25 MHz visual carrier peak, was adequate.

You'd think that the splitters would be furnished with published 600 MHz, output-port-to-output-port loss figures for us to use in our seat-of-the-pants loss projections.

FWIW, in the master antenna distribution business, we used to sometimes used a component called a back matched tap, which served the same purpose as a directional coupler, in that it bled a small amount of signal off a trunkline and passed the rest. But one significant difference between the operational characteristics of a directional coupler and a back matched tap is that the back matched tap was non-directional, so while it functioned the same as the directional coupler when used correctly in the forward direction, it functioned differently when one connected it backwards. A backmatched tap has no dedicated input or output port. Both trunkline ports are simply labeled "thru".

If I used a -7dB directional coupler or a -7dB back matched tap to supply a wallplate, the signal coming out of that tap would be seven dB lower than that of the trunkline, whereas the signal portion passing through it would be about 2 dB lower. But if I backfed signal into that thru/output port, to send it upstream, while both devices would similarly pass it though to their input port, the tap port labeled -7dB on the backmatched coupler would still bleed off a flat, -7dB signal, whereas the tap port labeled -7dB on the directional coupler would be down 20 or more dB and non-flat, similar to the frequency response of a misconnected hybrid splitter.

I used to carry backmatched taps with me when upgrading wiring in old buildings where sometimes, when I was upgrading a wallplate, both wires were dead and unlabeled, so if I installed a directional coupler at that moment, there would be a 50-50 chance I'd be called back to swap the wires on it. The technical disadvantage of using the backmatched tap is that it slightly increased the intensity of any interference that a connection near the end of the line inadvertently injected into it.

But anyway, there are off-the shelf, 2-port directional couplers that are used to conveniently support 2 output residential wallplates, so I am wondering if it is similarly possible to develop 2 or more port backmatched taps, and if it is, then an 8-port backmatched tap that is designed to have -11 or -12 dB ports, with a terminating resistor on its anemic, thru port, should have about the same value "port-to-port" isolation as its tap value.

So what I'm wondering is, are these green labeled splitters really just back matched taps?

Edited by AntAltMike, 24 May 2012 - 08:40 AM.


#14 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:13 AM

I noticed the other day that he didn't replace the old Zinwell four-way splitter at the SWM-8 with a green label splitter. Guess I shouldn't worry about that since it's working?

If the loss isn't too great, then the DECA will work. If you have either H/HR24s or H25, or even a HR34, you can measure the DECA loss between receivers.
A.K.A VOS

#15 OFFLINE   randyk47

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:22 AM

If the loss isn't too great, then the DECA will work. If you have either H/HR24s or H25, or even a HR34, you can measure the DECA loss between receivers.


I don't have any of those models so no way to measure. It's not that a green label splitter is all that expensive and certainly not hard to install so I guess I should just swap it out myself. I'm kind of a "if it ain't broken don't fix it" guy so I guess I can just ignore it. Since I'm not noticing any issues I assume the loss isn't great or significant enough to bother with.
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MRV
Attic Mounted HD OTA
U-verse Internet/Phone

#16 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:28 AM

My first search foray for a multi-port backmatched tap led me to this clunker, the Blonder Tongue V-2WS 2 port, backmatched terminating walltap. This device probably went out of production thirty years ago.

http://www.multicomi...atap_series.pdf

It is front illustration #4, rear illustration I, and spec-ed in the far right column.

Its existence tends to validate my speculation that multiport, backmatched taps are a proven circuit design. I have to go to work now, but will try to investigate back-matched-tap circuit design when I get home tonight.

NSC Distributing claims to have the Blonder Tongue V-2WS for $8.24, but a hobbyest probably couldn't meet their minimum order value.

Update: I just took another peek at the linked Multicom page of discontinued walltaps and see that there was also a product numbered V-2G-B (front illus #4, rear, "A") that was a backmatched multiport tap that was not line terminating, that permitted selection of port values of -12, -17 and -23 dB, and it was unshelded, making it convenient to analyze, and of course, since this was made before SMT, you can visually identify the component values. Each port would have two parallel resistors going to it, and if you left them both in circuit, the value was -12 dB, if you cut one it became -17 or if you cut the other, it became -23.

Edited by AntAltMike, 24 May 2012 - 11:56 AM.


#17 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:28 AM

So what I'm wondering is, are these green labeled splitters really just back matched taps?

I've seen the insides of both the non green & the green splitters and they're both based on a Wilkinson divider.
What I didn't get to see is the backside of the board of the green one.
"I suspect" there is a cap & coil to filter the DECA to a resistor circuit between outputs.
A.K.A VOS

#18 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:31 AM

I don't have any of those models so no way to measure. It's not that a green label splitter is all that expensive and certainly not hard to install so I guess I should just swap it out myself. I'm kind of a "if it ain't broken don't fix it" guy so I guess I can just ignore it. Since I'm not noticing any issues I assume the loss isn't great or significant enough to bother with.

So you have the DECA adapters on your receivers and the cLink will show a green status. Should one be yellow/orange, then you have reduced performance and need to change the splitter(s).
A.K.A VOS

#19 OFFLINE   randyk47

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:08 AM

So you have the DECA adapters on your receivers and the cLink will show a green status. Should one be yellow/orange, then you have reduced performance and need to change the splitter(s).


Great! I knew you'd know. :) I'll give them a check. Thanks. I'm guessing the SWM-8 itself isn't an issue or could it be?
Elite 70" HD LED/HR44/AM21/Denon AVR/Harmony 900
Samsung 52" HD LCD/HR21/Yamaha HTR/Harmony One
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Samsung 32" HD LCD/OTA
Slimline Dish
SWM16
MRV
Attic Mounted HD OTA
U-verse Internet/Phone

#20 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:30 AM

The training seminar said that there was supposed to be no more than 45 dB loss at 600 MHz from any one receiver's satellite RF port to any others.

This is the limit of the Phy level loss.
Above this the Phy mesh rates start dropping.
A.K.A VOS




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