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The official "ask veryoldschool" thread


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#751 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 12:09 PM

are those numbers on reference to swm loss or DECA loss?

Phy levels mean DECA

 

The last testing showed -10/11 dB difference between a barrel and both a 2-way & 8-way as configured this way:

 

image001.jpg

 


A.K.A VOS

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#752 OFFLINE   jagrim

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:39 PM

These numbers look a lot like what I've seen, where a 2-way has 7 dB, a 4-way 10 dB, and an 8-way 13 dB.

 

A couple of months ago, these were tested at two locations by various methods, because a supplier was stating they all had 10 dB.

There apparently has been a change to the splitters as a "good half a dozen tests" between 2-ways and 8-ways showed no difference in loss.

 

I'm thinking that when I move the SWM16 back to the attic that the leg 2 receivers will drop to the mid 20's.  That is assuming about 5dB loss per 50' foot.  Is that a good estimate?



#753 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 02:28 PM

I'm thinking that when I move the SWM16 back to the attic that the leg 2 receivers will drop to the mid 20's.  That is assuming about 5dB loss per 50' foot.  Is that a good estimate?

It's a safe estimate, but maybe twice what the DECA loss should be for RG6.


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#754 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:10 PM

It's a safe estimate, but maybe twice what the DECA loss should be for RG6.

Right I was thinking about 2.5      

 

VOS, I was doing a SC today with the main "complain" being poor MRV playback.  upon checking things out, I found a SWM16 by the dish with about 60 ft cable run from dish to splitters (both sides).  there was an 8 way SWM splitter feeding a 3 way cable splitter ( :bang ) and a four way.  after balancing everything out, I wound up with an 8 way feeding a 2 way SWM splitter (intend of the 3 way cable splitter) and the four way.  with this set up it brought the system to "orange DECA status" from being well outdid before.  but I was still a bit too high on that 2 way from 8 way.  when changing the 2 way to come off the four way I was immediately rewarded with "green DECA status"  but the HR34 was still barking at the DECA levels.  ~48 give or take.  When I brought the SWM16 next to the splitters, reducing the 120 foot run (60 each way) I was finally able to quite down the Genie with the worse signal being ~36

 

The point I am trying to make (or one of the points,) it seems that splitters do indeed have variable loss depending on splitter size. and second, is never a good idea to have the SWM16 to far apart from the splitters.


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#755 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:17 PM

Right I was thinking about 2.5      

 

VOS, I was doing a SC today with the main "complain" being poor MRV playback.  upon checking things out, I found a SWM16 by the dish with about 60 ft cable run from dish to splitters (both sides).  there was an 8 way SWM splitter feeding a 3 way cable splitter ( :bang ) and a four way.  after balancing everything out, I wound up with an 8 way feeding a 2 way SWM splitter (intend of the 3 way cable splitter) and the four way.  with this set up it brought the system to "orange DECA status" from being well outdid before.  but I was still a bit too high on that 2 way from 8 way.  when changing the 2 way to come off the four way I was immediately rewarded with "green DECA status"  but the HR34 was still barking at the DECA levels.  ~48 give or take.  When I brought the SWM16 next to the splitters, reducing the 120 foot run (60 each way) I was finally able to quite down the Genie with the worse signal being ~36

 

The point I am trying to make (or one of the points,) it seems that splitters do indeed have variable loss depending on splitter size. and second, is never a good idea to have the SWM16 to far apart from the splitters.

I'm hoping to find some sort of rev number change for which splitters are the same and which [earlier] aren't.

"Orange DECA status" isn't alway a loss issue. It comes from a lack of SNR, which can be due to too much loss, but it can also be due to the same DECA signal traveling through two different paths and combining in a degraded signal.

I had this in the early testing of DECA. My Phy levels were good but my mesh wasn't.

To test this theory of multiple DECA paths combining, I changed the line length of one of the coax by a couple of inches and "phased" the two signals such that the mesh went up and the orange LEDs turned green.

 

As for the splitter distance from the SWiM-16, it shouldn't have much [or any] affect, "other than" reducing the total run from the splitter to receiver.

You're basically just dealing with loss, and it doesn't matter if it's before or after the splitter.

When you start dealing with vary long runs with amps and diplexers, you may need to locate the splitter farther from the SWiM to keep the phy levels within range for the receivers off the splitter, by reducing the loss on the splitter to receiver runs.


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#756 OFFLINE   jagrim

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 11:43 AM

VOS & Peds48

Changed out the 8 way splitter's for 4 way splitters today and numbers have reduced. No network errors either.


PHY PHY PHY
Receiver: (2) 8- way (1) 8-way & 1-4 way (leg 2) (2) 4-ways
CCK (98)(leg 2) -51 -46 -43
Study (58)(leg 2) -51 n/a (?) -44
Han (b6)(leg 1) -23 -23 -21
C41 (3c)(leg 1) -27 -27 -22
(29:3c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -39
(2c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -40
(77)(leg 2) -44 -41 -37

All readings taken from the HR34 on leg 1


Well, I moved the SWM16 from outside by the dish to it's original position in the attic. All the signals on leg 2 came down about 8 dB. Unfortunately, I broke one of the 4-ways so I had to use an 8-way on leg 1. I'll get another one from SS and replace it next weekend. With the exception of the line that contains the 2-way for the CCK, all the readings are now below 35.
BTW, I don't no how installers can work in that type of heat. I must just be getting old.


SWM16 outside SWM 16 attic
PHY PHY PHY
Receiver:[/ (2) 8- way (1) 8-way & 1-4 way (leg 2) (2) 4-ways [u](8way & 4way (leg 2)
CCK (98)(leg 2) -51 -46 -43 -39
Study (58)(leg 2) -51 n/a (?) -44 -40
Han (b6)(leg 1) -23 -23 -21 -26
C41 (3c)(leg 1) -27 -27 -22 -27
(29:3c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -39 -35
(2c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -40 -35
(77)(leg 2) -44 -41 -37 -32

#757 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 03:03 PM

These numbers look a lot like what I've seen, where a 2-way has 7 dB, a 4-way 10 dB, and an 8-way 13 dB.

 

A couple of months ago, these were tested at two locations by various methods, because a supplier was stating they all had 10 dB.

There apparently has been a change to the splitters as a "good half a dozen tests" between 2-ways and 8-ways showed no difference in loss.

This was interesting to me so today I hooked my meter up to a dish (swm5) with about 50 foot of SC RG6 tested the db with no splitter I then connected a 4 way splitter and lost 6 db I then connected an 8 way splitter and lost 2 more db's so a total of 8 db's. I did not try a 2 way. These were both brand new splitters and newer inventory as well.



#758 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 03:14 PM

This was interesting to me so today I hooked my meter up to a dish (swm5) with about 50 foot of SC RG6 tested the db with no splitter I then connected a 4 way splitter and lost 6 db I then connected an 8 way splitter and lost 2 more db's so a total of 8 db's. I did not try a 2 way. These were both brand new splitters and newer inventory as well.

These are SWiM readings, right?

What meter?

"Repeatability" looks to be ±2 dB


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#759 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 08:55 PM

Yes it is from SWM5 LNB with 50 ft of cable read it from Birddog Ultra and AIM both gave same reading. I am going to try it again with 2 way and a couple of other splitters. I haven't done this in some time and last time I did the 8 ways were dropping 11-13 db, 4 ways were between 7-9, and 2 ways would drop 4-6. so they have improved apparently.



#760 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 09:02 PM

Yes it is from SWM5 LNB with 50 ft of cable read it from Birddog Ultra and AIM both gave same reading. I am going to try it again with 2 way and a couple of other splitters. I haven't done this in some time and last time I did the 8 ways were dropping 11-13 db, 4 ways were between 7-9, and 2 ways would drop 4-6. so they have improved apparently.

But we are not "talking" about RF SWM loss.  this is about DECA loss which is not possible to measure with AIM


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#761 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 03:50 AM

Yes it is from SWM5 LNB with 50 ft of cable read it from Birddog Ultra and AIM both gave same reading. I am going to try it again with 2 way and a couple of other splitters. I haven't done this in some time and last time I did the 8 ways were dropping 11-13 db, 4 ways were between 7-9, and 2 ways would drop 4-6. so they have improved apparently.

As peds48 points out, we were posting about DECA losses, but for SWiM losses, your numbers are expected.

Splitter loss is the sum of dividing power and the circuit loss, which varies by frequency.

A 2-way starts with -3 dB from dividing and -1.4 to -1.8 dB circuit loss for an insertion loss of 4.4 to 4.8 dB.    


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#762 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 04:10 AM

Hey Vos, isn't it said you are not supposed to ever terminate the ird port of a swim PI?



#763 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 04:42 AM

Hey Vos, isn't it said you are not supposed to ever terminate the ird port of a swim PI?

"Not supposed to ever" is false, or you couldn't connect a receiver to the IRD port.

A receiver is a load, which is another name for a terminator.

When a PI is connected to a pwr port with no RF, a termination isn't needed, but can still be used.

When a PI is connected to an RF port, it should/must be terminated to keep the RF from "bouncing" off the open port and degrading the signals.


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#764 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 06:31 AM

"Not supposed to ever" is false, or you couldn't connect a receiver to the IRD port.

A receiver is a load, which is another name for a terminator.

When a PI is connected to a pwr port with no RF, a termination isn't needed, but can't still be used.

When a PI is connected to an RF port, it should/must be terminated to keep the RF from "bouncing" off the open port and degrading the signals.

fixed it for ya!


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#765 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 06:32 AM

Hey Vos, isn't it said you are not supposed to ever terminate the ird port of a swim PI?

did not believe me? 

 

a PI RF port is no different than a splitter port as as such it must be terminated.  (when connected to an RF port_)


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
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The round pegs in the square holes.

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They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


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#766 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 08:01 AM

fixed it for ya!

Didn't really need "fixing" as a termination will have "zero effect".


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#767 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 08:30 AM

Didn't really need "fixing" as a termination will have "zero effect".

My interpretation was that it can't be used for video.  upon re-reading I then realize it was referring to termination.  my apologies.  

 

How in my mind I thought that you could make mistakes.... silly me.... :rotfl:


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Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#768 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 06:55 PM

I see, I jumped in on post and didn't see mention of DECA signals.



#769 OFFLINE   itzme

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:30 AM

hi VOS! I am getting ready to renovate my living room, where my HR 44 lives connected to Swm and a CCK. I'm going to need to move my whole rack out of the room. During that time I want to be able to watch TV upstairs, where I have a C41 client on Swm. I'm going to try to leave the HR 44 all plugged in and try to place it on my mantel in the living room, but if I can't, can I replace the Bedroom C41 with the HR44? I won't need internet features for the few days this will all take. Any advice? Thanks!

#770 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:58 AM

hi VOS! I am getting ready to renovate my living room, where my HR 44 lives connected to Swm and a CCK. I'm going to need to move my whole rack out of the room. During that time I want to be able to watch TV upstairs, where I have a C41 client on Swm. I'm going to try to leave the HR 44 all plugged in and try to place it on my mantel in the living room, but if I can't, can I replace the Bedroom C41 with the HR44? I won't need internet features for the few days this will all take. Any advice? Thanks!

You can swap the 44 where the 41 is.

Make sure the SWiM PI stays connected and if you have an open coax, that it's terminated.


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#771 OFFLINE   itzme

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 12:57 PM

Since I don't think I have anything to terminate a coax, it sounds like I should find a way to leave it AC-plugged in and coax-connected, in the living room. Thanks, VOS.

#772 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 03:03 PM

Since I don't think I have anything to terminate a coax, it sounds like I should find a way to leave it AC-plugged in and coax-connected, in the living room. Thanks, VOS.

 

You can get a 10 pack of terminators on ebay for $3.85 with free shipping.


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#773 ONLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 03:26 PM

Or stop a D truck.


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#774 ONLINE   texasbrit

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 03:51 PM

Here's a question:

Went over to a friend's house last week, he has an HR44, a C41  and an HR24 running whole home through coax. His sister living in another building also has DirecTV, her own account and two HR24s running whole home through coax. Separate dishes. But they do share wireless internet. So how can they prevent whole home from one system seeing whole home in the other system - they have separate coax networks, but share a router and that "bridges" the two networks.



#775 ONLINE   damondlt

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 03:56 PM

Here's a question:
Went over to a friend's house last week, he has an HR44, a C41 and an HR24 running whole home through coax. His sister living in another building also has DirecTV, her own account and two HR24s running whole home through coax. Separate dishes. But they do share wireless internet. So how can they prevent whole home from one system seeing whole home in the other system - they have separate coax networks, but share a router and that "bridges" the two networks.

I'm almost positive your whole home doesn't require Internet to function. It uses the Swm technology.
The connection to the internet, I'm fairly sure it is for on demand youtube and Pandora only.

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