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BUG REPORT: Frozen white pixel block in DVI-Out transmission (PLEASE READ)


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27 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   RobbW

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 10:25 PM

Hi all -

I just received my 921 today and hooked it up through my DVI cable to my Samsung DLP (50" - HLN507W) DVI input. Everything seems to be fine, albeit one irritating exception:

In the far upper left corner of the broadcast, there is a 2x2 pixel-length white square that remains with any broadcast or channel, HD or SD. For reference, it has the same "look" as a Plasma TV with burnt/frozen pixels. The "white box" is ALMOST 3x3 but in all fairness, the bordering pixels are only half-filled with white giving it a slightly smaller appearance than a true 3x3 box.

Interestingly, the white artifact only appears in the actual program you are watching, not in the DISH guides, or menus. Also, if I'm watching SD programming through "normal" mode and the program is windowboxed, the white box will appear in the empty black space on the upper top left of my screen, but far away from the actual broadcast.

By the way, let's eliminate the obvious...(heh) the problem is not in the cable as I swapped cables with my DVI-equipped DVD player and the problem followed the 921, not the cable.

The problem is also not present via S-Video, only via DVI.

I haven't tried hooking up the component outs yet to see what that will do...I will attempt to test that over the weekend and will edit this post with the results. However, for those of you that know the sublime bliss :) that is the difference between 720p hi-def being sent straight through DVI to a digital DVI equipped tv vs. connecting component out to component in will know that even if component doesn't show the artifact, that is hardly a workable compromise.

After speaking with a Dish high-lvl tech, this has been reported in by a few others to date. It will most certainly be reported in by more once there is a larger population of 921 owners that are sending DVI out to a DVI equipped TV. Right now, I understand I'm in the minority.

I would open it up to the gallery to ask if this problem would carry any potential danger/exposure of burn-in to other fixed pixel technologies (i.e. Plasma, LCD)? DLP's aren't candidates for burn-in so it's not a personal worry.

In closing, I'm in love with what the 921 seems capable of, but this flaw seems a lot to have to swallow. I'm hopeful DISH won't see this display artifact as acceptable. I would never accept a TV that came with such a large frozen number of pixels in one quadrant, and after spending $1k on technology that is supposed to show the capabilities and promise of hi-def, I would think it would be horrifying for DISH to allow DVI, it's premier connectivity option, to have a gaping hole in the quality that we are all spending so much money to attempt to achieve.

Time will tell...

Best,

RobbW

Boot version: 120B
Flash: F051
SW Version: L142HECD-N

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#2 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 10:44 PM

Good report, RobbW and please update when you get your component results. Also, is the problem present only in 720p mode, or do you see it as well with the 921 set to 1080i and 480p? (I know that's not the ideal setting for your tv - just trying to nail it down to one display mode or all of them.)
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#3 OFFLINE   RobbW

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:32 PM

Good report, RobbW and please update when you get your component results. Also, is the problem present only in 720p mode, or do you see it as well with the 921 set to 1080i and 480p? (I know that's not the ideal setting for your tv - just trying to nail it down to one display mode or all of them.)


Thanks Mark...

I hope it can be fixed.

It also happens in 1080i and 480p.

RobbW

#4 OFFLINE   John Corn

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:44 PM

Robb, I didn't have that problem on mine using the DVI cable. That would bug the hell out of me if that was in the corner of my screen. I hope it doesn't show up on my next one.
Have a Great Day! :) :flag:

#5 OFFLINE   RobbW

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:58 PM

Okee dokee - I hooked up the component cables to give it a try. I think you'll all be interested to hear the results. :)

At first, upon turning on the set, (and staying in my 720P mode which is native to my Sammy DLP TV) I almost didn't see the white pixel box anymore. However, upon close examination, I was able to locate it. It was still in the top left corner, but now, it was a bit more left and much higher than it was before. I almost didn't see it because it was now located at the extreme top edge of my screen. In Component, it is now a 3x2 box where only 2 horizontal pixels are extremely white, and the outlying pixels were a fading half-white, so it certainly had the overall visual appearance of a smaller box.

If my screen had been 2 pixel lengths shorter vertically, it would have been sent into the "overscan cornfield" where all bad, bad pixels should go. ;)

Depending on the make of TV, I could easily see where you may have this artifact via component and never notice it because of the varying levels of overscan amongst different television models. In fact, when I tried my tests outside of my native resolutions in 1080i and 480p, I was unable to see it anymore at all. (Although, I know it's still out there, just above my sight line - lurking, waiting...)

Which brings me to the interesting part. I'm hardly a video whiz kid, but I'm going to add my conjecture anyway that DVI-DVI connections are sending direct pixel by pixel information to my screen, thus showing me full broadcast information, dot for dot, including stuff normally reserved for the "overscan zone". The DVI signal is 720P but my screen size is 768 so I see every dot. If I don't go to "wide" mode on my Sammy TV, I see a tiny black border around the 720P stream, confirming that I'm not missing a single dot. Even wide-mode on my Sammy is smart enough to know that it is only expanding to 768 which is still showing the whole picture but using my entire screen space, thus I see the artifact either way.

Component is sending an analog signal, albeit a high-def, progressive one, but the signal sent, includes overscan information (?), and the "bonus" information that we don't really know we're missing is where the white box takes up it's residence. However, in 720p, it's peeking it's head down from the top of my screen and I can see it.

I may be a bit off there technically, but the bottom line of this is that the white box is there in either mode, but those of you with a DVI connection will be getting a bit more picture information displayed, including the artifact unfortunately. Those with a component connection may or may not see it based on your TV, but clearly, you have a tiny bit of cropping going on in Component mode they may actually be helpful for this particular problem.

From what John said earlier, it appears that this is not a problem with all receivers...however, from my conversation with DISH, they had identified this in a few thus far, so it may be hit or miss but I'm hoping, that if the problem is not prevalent within the whole 921 population, that someone from DISH will see this message and allow me to trade to one that does not have this problem.

In any event, I certainly hope this info helps someone...

Cheers,

RobbW

Boot version: 120B
Flash: F051
SW Version: L142HECD-N[/QUOTE]

#6 OFFLINE   Jerry G

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 04:48 PM

Just set up my 921 today. I also see the white pixels in the upper left corner on one set, but not on another set which has enough overscan to hide it. Until this is fixed, for those that see it on their set, use the picture adjust menu to bring the picture slightly up to hide those pixels.

Boot: 120B
Flash F051
SW L142

#7 OFFLINE   RobbW

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 08:36 PM

Just set up my 921 today. I also see the white pixels in the upper left corner on one set, but not on another set which has enough overscan to hide it. Until this is fixed, for those that see it on their set, use the picture adjust menu to bring the picture slightly up to hide those pixels.

Boot: 120B
Flash F051
SW L142


Hi Jerry - thank you for validating the presence of the artifact on your 921. :)

Certainly, your suggestion is an open option to people based on the amount of visual information they are willing to sacrifice. Using component inputs with my Sammy, I would have done just that as the artifact showed at the very top of my screen.

Unfortunately, in DVI, I would have to crop my picture ~20-25 vertical pixel lengths to achieve the same result or what measures out to be cropping a full vertical inch on my 50" widescreen (which is only about 24" vertical to begin with).

For me, with DLP having no ancillary burn-in issues, I would rather deal with the artifact than lose all of that.

And FWIW, other than this one problem, the 921 rocks!!

Best,

RobbW

#8 OFFLINE   Kagato

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:12 PM

It should be noted that the 721 has a very similar issue. At the bottom of the screen a small black box, bottom two pixels, taking up about 80% of the screen width. You wouldn't notice it on most Televisions with overscan, but as I have an HD LCD projector I see it, even with S-Video. Although it should be noted that each television maker impliments their analog video scaler differently. If the scaler is set up to slightly overscan analog inputs you wouldn't see the pixels.

I suspect it's actually an X Window application box that's set to minimized and not an artifact.

#9 OFFLINE   peterd

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 02:12 AM

I'll weigh in here now that I've had a chance to check this in multiple scenarios. I see the same white spot in the upper left corner. 16x9 display, RGB or component (don't have a DVI capable monitor) at 1080i, 720p or 480p. (Haven't tried 480i/SD.)
Peter
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#10 OFFLINE   928gt

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 08:09 AM

Had a 45 minute chat with a pretty sharp advanced tech last night documenting all the quirks of my 921 and talking about the 921 in general.

Part of the conversation was concerning the white pixel issue of which they are very aware, I was told this will be fixed on release L1.44.

Dave

#11 OFFLINE   ibglowin

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 10:11 AM

Good report, RobbW and please update when you get your component results. Also, is the problem present only in 720p mode, or do you see it as well with the 921 set to 1080i and 480p? (I know that's not the ideal setting for your tv - just trying to nail it down to one display mode or all of them.)


Mark,

Were out of town this weekend but I noticed the exact same thing on my 921. Same place as everyone elses. I am using component cable and set to 1080i. Its out of the picture on 4:3 content but if you stretch the picture over the area it does not disapear.

Don't have my 921 info handy at the moment.

#12 OFFLINE   rudolpht

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 10:48 AM

Just set up my 921 today. I also see the white pixels in the upper left corner on one set, but not on another set which has enough overscan to hide it. Until this is fixed, for those that see it on their set, use the picture adjust menu to bring the picture slightly up to hide those pixels.

Boot: 120B
Flash F051
SW L142


Jerry,

Assume you see it on the 503CMX, which is where I do.

Tim

#13 OFFLINE   Jerry G

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 11:16 AM

Jerry,

Assume you see it on the 503CMX, which is where I do.

Tim


I have the Pioneer Pro 1000 (same as 503). I don't see it on the Pioneer because when I first set it up, I moved the picture up just a bit to see a touch more of the bottom, and that has effectively hidden the white pixels on the plasma. Although the Pioneer plasma has a relatively small amount of overscan, it's a bit too much. At some point, I'll get the Aurora card which will allow control over the overscan.

I see the pixels on my 22" widescreen Mitsubishi LCD set which has less overscan than the Pioneer plasma.

#14 OFFLINE   MM-etech

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 12:31 PM

Hi all -

I just received my 921 today and hooked it up through my DVI cable to my Samsung DLP (50" - HLN507W) DVI input. Everything seems to be fine, albeit one irritating exception:

In the far upper left corner of the broadcast, there is a 2x2 pixel-length white square that remains with any broadcast or channel, HD or SD. For reference, it has the same "look" as a Plasma TV with burnt/frozen pixels. The "white box" is ALMOST 3x3 but in all fairness, the bordering pixels are only half-filled with white giving it a slightly smaller appearance than a true 3x3 box.

Interestingly, the white artifact only appears in the actual program you are watching, not in the DISH guides, or menus. Also, if I'm watching SD programming through "normal" mode and the program is windowboxed, the white box will appear in the empty black space on the upper top left of my screen, but far away from the actual broadcast.

By the way, let's eliminate the obvious...(heh) the problem is not in the cable as I swapped cables with my DVI-equipped DVD player and the problem followed the 921, not the cable.

The problem is also not present via S-Video, only via DVI.

I haven't tried hooking up the component outs yet to see what that will do...I will attempt to test that over the weekend and will edit this post with the results. However, for those of you that know the sublime bliss :) that is the difference between 720p hi-def being sent straight through DVI to a digital DVI equipped tv vs. connecting component out to component in will know that even if component doesn't show the artifact, that is hardly a workable compromise.

After speaking with a Dish high-lvl tech, this has been reported in by a few others to date. It will most certainly be reported in by more once there is a larger population of 921 owners that are sending DVI out to a DVI equipped TV. Right now, I understand I'm in the minority.

I would open it up to the gallery to ask if this problem would carry any potential danger/exposure of burn-in to other fixed pixel technologies (i.e. Plasma, LCD)? DLP's aren't candidates for burn-in so it's not a personal worry.

In closing, I'm in love with what the 921 seems capable of, but this flaw seems a lot to have to swallow. I'm hopeful DISH won't see this display artifact as acceptable. I would never accept a TV that came with such a large frozen number of pixels in one quadrant, and after spending $1k on technology that is supposed to show the capabilities and promise of hi-def, I would think it would be horrifying for DISH to allow DVI, it's premier connectivity option, to have a gaping hole in the quality that we are all spending so much money to attempt to achieve.

Time will tell...

Best,

RobbW

Boot version: 120B
Flash: F051
SW Version: L142HECD-N



I have the same problem with my JVC PVR-921. I've got mine on 12/30/03. Initilally it was fine until 2 days ago where the white pixel started to show on top left. I am using component video to connect to a Panasonic Plasma. I am really concern since it will eventually create a burn in on the my plasma.

#15 OFFLINE   Jerry G

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 12:49 PM

I have the same problem with my JVC PVR-921. I've got mine on 12/30/03. Initilally it was fine until 2 days ago where the white pixel started to show on top left. I am using component video to connect to a Panasonic Plasma. I am really concern since it will eventually create a burn in on the my plasma.


Until the white pixel problem is fixed, go into the 921's HDTV menu and use the adjust feature to move the picture slightly up until the white pixels disappear. When the bug is fixed, you can restore the centering of the picture on the 921.

#16 OFFLINE   anderdea

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 09:23 AM

I have a JVC G-11 D-ILA projector with a native resolution of 1365 X 1024 and see the same white pixels in the same location and previously mentioned. This is using the component inputs as the G-11 is a 3 year old projector and doesn't have a DVI input. I checked a test program using my Home Theater PC (HTPC) and verified that it is only there when view video using the 921. I also notified advanced tech support of of the issue.

#17 OFFLINE   MM-etech

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 09:54 AM

Until the white pixel problem is fixed, go into the 921's HDTV menu and use the adjust feature to move the picture slightly up until the white pixels disappear. When the bug is fixed, you can restore the centering of the picture on the 921.


Moved it up using Plasma's feature, also called Dishnetwork and CST told me it will be fixed on next release of SW which should be out around two weeks.

#18 OFFLINE   anderdea

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 12:29 PM

Until the white pixel problem is fixed, go into the 921's HDTV menu and use the adjust feature to move the picture slightly up until the white pixels disappear. When the bug is fixed, you can restore the centering of the picture on the 921.


Where is the HDTV menu that allows you to move the image up. I am not in front of the 921 at present but have the manual available and haven't been able to find the adjust picture feature. Also I don't recall seeing it in the menu while I was setting up the 921.

#19 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 12:32 PM

It's in Preferences - View Preferences (menu option 4).
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#20 OFFLINE   928gt

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 01:46 PM

Actually it is a little "hidden" if you don't pay really close attention and/or are used to the 6000/811 HDTV Menu.

Try "4" (Preferences), then "2" (View Preferences), THEN "More" (Top of Right side buttons) and you will see it.

Dave




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