Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

Quick help needed! Power Center died


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   1953

1953

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 616 posts
Joined: Feb 07, 2006

Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:11 AM

Well here I am, a new owner of a Panamax M4300-PM. Honestly, I cannot begin to join in your technical discussions due to my lack of knowledge so I'll speak from a plain Joe's point of view

All I can say is that during the years we used a Monster HT3600 MKII this device protected our AV equipment during many, many voltage spikes, surges, lighting strike and power outages. With the HT3600's demise I researched the devices on the market along with opinions from three forums. After feeling my head was about to explode I came to the conclusion that about 50% of those who offered advice preferred not to use power centers. Many surprised me by supporting UPS's with the minority liking power centers.

I was ready to go the high quality surge surpressor route until my wife reminded me how well the power center performed and (now don't throw rocks at me) to some degree improved both the audio and video. There is no way I can support my position other than tell you visitors to our home were and still are astounded by the our systems performance.

The new Panamax M4300-PM is installed, coax, telephone line included. I was surprised by the strict warranty conditions but that will be presented in a new thread. Please accept my sincere appreciation for your help.

Louis

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#22 OFFLINE   satcrazy

satcrazy

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 715 posts
  • LocationGreat lakes, NW Pa.
Joined: Mar 15, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:26 PM

Anybody have any advise about APC H15? [ good or bad]


Amazon.com APC H15BLK AV 1.5kVA H Type Power Conditioner Electronics

#23 OFFLINE   Davenlr

Davenlr

    Geek til I die

  • Registered
  • 9,089 posts
Joined: Sep 16, 2006

Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:32 PM

Personally, if I was going to spend that kind of money, I would get an APC with a battery backup, so you dont lose your recording programs during brief power outages, but that is just me.

I have been running a 1500VA APC UPS on my home entertainment center for several years. Runs for 15 minutes during a power outage, more than enough time to go out and fire up the generator if it doesnt come back on pretty quick.

Tivo Premier XL4, Tivo Premier, Tivo HD whole home on Xfinity HD, DirecTv Whole Home with 39" high gain KaKu dish, Roku3,SageTv 8 TB Win8 Server -> DVDO Edge-> Denon AVR, Klipsch KB15's/Panasonic 55ST60 plasma"


#24 OFFLINE   satcrazy

satcrazy

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 715 posts
  • LocationGreat lakes, NW Pa.
Joined: Mar 15, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:00 PM

Well here I am, a new owner of a Panamax M4300-PM. Honestly, I cannot begin to join in your technical discussions due to my lack of knowledge so I'll speak from a plain Joe's point of view

All I can say is that during the years we used a Monster HT3600 MKII this device protected our AV equipment during many, many voltage spikes, surges, lighting strike and power outages. With the HT3600's demise I researched the devices on the market along with opinions from three forums. After feeling my head was about to explode I came to the conclusion that about 50% of those who offered advice preferred not to use power centers. Many surprised me by supporting UPS's with the minority liking power centers.

I was ready to go the high quality surge surpressor route until my wife reminded me how well the power center performed and (now don't throw rocks at me) to some degree improved both the audio and video. There is no way I can support my position other than tell you visitors to our home were and still are astounded by the our systems performance.

The new Panamax M4300-PM is installed, coax, telephone line included. I was surprised by the strict warranty conditions but that will be presented in a new thread. Please accept my sincere appreciation for your help.

Louis



Hi louis,

After reading amazon reviews, One poster stated there were no "always on" outlets, like his previous panamax had.
So, my question is two fold, what would I do about my sat reciever which needs to be on for second tv viewing/ and /or daily guide updates?

Does the 4300 have sequential power up and power down ability? Meaning if you shut off one component do all the rest follow?

Does the Panamax turn off your components if the voltage stays too low [ brownouts]

#25 OFFLINE   satcrazy

satcrazy

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 715 posts
  • LocationGreat lakes, NW Pa.
Joined: Mar 15, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:13 PM

Personally, if I was going to spend that kind of money, I would get an APC with a battery backup, so you dont lose your recording programs during brief power outages, but that is just me.

I have been running a 1500VA APC UPS on my home entertainment center for several years. Runs for 15 minutes during a power outage, more than enough time to go out and fire up the generator if it doesnt come back on pretty quick.


Well. I don't have a DVR, so I would only need that for a computer I guess, although J Williams recommended a UPS for brownouts, I'm not sure why unless he also thought I had a DVR.

I'm mostly concerned about fluctuations, and low power/ then surge when the power co. here is playing with their grid. Like I mentioned in another post, I was leaning towards a tripplite, but it never cuts the supply of electricity to your stuff if the power goes too low and hangs there. I would think that would be the first thing it should do.

#26 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

SayWhat?

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,524 posts
Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:15 PM

See your other thread.
Help stamp out Twits and Twitterers!

HD, SchmacHD!! Just be glad you've got a picture at all.

#27 OFFLINE   John Williams

John Williams

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 106 posts
Joined: Oct 05, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:39 PM

After reading amazon reviews, One poster stated there were no "always on" outlets, like his previous panamax had.
So, my question is two fold, what would I do about my sat reciever which needs to be on for second tv viewing/ and /or daily guide updates?

Does the 4300 have sequential power up and power down ability? Meaning if you shut off one component do all the rest follow?

Does the Panamax turn off your components if the voltage stays too low [ brownouts]


Well if you don't ever switch the unit off, then all the outlets are always-on. The master power switch on the front turns the unit on/off, there are no 12v triggers etc... on that unit. There is also no sequential outlets on the unit.
A couple of notes: The only reason you would need sequential outlets, would be if: 1) You were running a separate preamp/ audio amp. Even then, most modern quality amps have their own start up delay built in. So again, not needed. 2) You have several large loads that demand a lot of start up power when first applied (usually large motor loads, high current amps, etc...). Again, if you don't have this, then there's no need.

In comparison to the APC 15 unit you were looking at. It also has no 12v triggers, etc... to turn it on/off either. The on/off has to be done by the front switch as well. The only time I could think you would use that, is if you have a lot of transformers (wall warts) plugged in. This would stop the vampire drain. Otherwise not much need to cut power to everything (unless you are a serious power control advocate). Then depending on the amount of equipment, you might save 10-50 watts killing power to everything vs. equipment just off and in standby.

The Panamax has protection for coax, telephone, and LAN. But you can add those things onto the APC with external modules (just like the gentleman did with the Panamax).

Feature wise they are similar (both have over & under voltage protection).

I wouldn't want to say one was better than the other without actually having both to take apart and study the circuits involved. Specs mean very little in this market.

#28 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

SayWhat?

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,524 posts
Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Posted 18 March 2012 - 04:47 PM

Well. I don't have a DVR, so I would only need that for a computer I guess, although J Williams recommended a UPS for brownouts, I'm not sure why unless he also thought I had a DVR.


A DVR doesn't have anything to do with needing a UPS or not.
Help stamp out Twits and Twitterers!

HD, SchmacHD!! Just be glad you've got a picture at all.

#29 OFFLINE   satcrazy

satcrazy

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 715 posts
  • LocationGreat lakes, NW Pa.
Joined: Mar 15, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:00 PM

A DVR doesn't have anything to do with needing a UPS or not.


What would be gained with A/V equipment then, having a ups? If there is something funky going on with the power, I don't need to watch tv that bad. I figure ups is for saving stuff, like recordings or computer data before it shuts down.

What do you mean?

#30 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

SayWhat?

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,524 posts
Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:17 PM

A momentary outage that suddenly restores can be devastating to any electronics. They like to be turned off completely, then turned back on after a short waiting period.

A UPS either makes those momentary glitches invisible to the devices or ensures that you have time to turn the devices off and let them fully shut down before turning them back on.
Help stamp out Twits and Twitterers!

HD, SchmacHD!! Just be glad you've got a picture at all.

#31 OFFLINE   1953

1953

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 616 posts
Joined: Feb 07, 2006

Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:45 PM

Hi louis,

After reading amazon reviews, One poster stated there were no "always on" outlets, like his previous panamax had.
So, my question is two fold, what would I do about my sat reciever which needs to be on for second tv viewing/ and /or daily guide updates?

Does the 4300 have sequential power up and power down ability? Meaning if you shut off one component do all the rest follow?

Does the Panamax turn off your components if the voltage stays too low [ brownouts]


Here is a link to the 4300's manual- http://www.panamax.c...18B_m4300pm.pdf

I suggest you call Panamax to ensure the 4300 will meet your specific needs. It works perfectly with my DTV HR24 HDDVR, AM21N and all of my other AV gear.

Panamax is to Furman as Ford is to Lincoln. Furman is far to costly for my needs.

Edited by 1953, 18 March 2012 - 06:05 PM.


#32 OFFLINE   John Williams

John Williams

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 106 posts
Joined: Oct 05, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:53 PM

A momentary outage that suddenly restores can be devastating to any electronics. They like to be turned off completely, then turned back on after a short waiting period.

A UPS either makes those momentary glitches invisible to the devices or ensures that you have time to turn the devices off and let them fully shut down before turning them back on.


Well I'll slightly disagree with you here - someone's got to disagree somewhere :P
Electronic equipment generally isn't bothered by power being lost to it for a split second. Even if it is interuppted again when it's booting back up, usually isn't a deal killer. It is generally just annoying to the user.
I recommended a UPS to him because of his description of power at his location. It sounds like brownouts are a daily occurance for him. In such a case, a UPS would save your sanity from your equipment rebooting all the time while trying to use it.
Sometimes when an electronic device gets cycled this way, it might lock up on you. It just means you have to pull power again to reset it and it will boot right back up. If you have electronics that lockup 'every time' there is a power glitch, or is damaged by a split second power loss - I recommend you get better electronics :lol:

See other post for reasons to have a UPS on certain kinds of devices, irrelevant of power conditions.

#33 OFFLINE   satcrazy

satcrazy

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 715 posts
  • LocationGreat lakes, NW Pa.
Joined: Mar 15, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:09 PM

Thanks for dealing with the dual posts, I just wasn't getting the answers I needed.

No, I don't realy deal with brownouts everyday, but it seems like whenever a storm sweeps through, I am at the alter of "cross your fingers" or on my knees pulling the surge suppressor plugs for the AV center and the computer [ not a cheap one] [ this plug is buried] from the wall outlets, because they are 25$ surge strips, and I'm paranoid. Problem is, these storms can pop up while I'm sleeping or away from the house.

Do line conditioners [ voltage regulators] realy "clean" the power so there is better performance, or is that just hype? I saw "sine" mentioned more than once, does that go hand in hand with "clean power"? I know, this is a crash course, but the more I glean, the better the informed choice, I think. Who buys the first thing they see? [ Well, I made that mistake as a kid, but not now, unless it's under a hundred,LOL]

I guess calling them [ the companies] with questions is ok, but even though the guy from tripplite was very pleasant, I would have been screaming if after setting up the tripplite product I found out it "hums" -that's a dealbraker, as I don't listen to the tv with the volume cranked [ well, most of the time] That's why I prefer casting a wider net, and I'm gratefull for everyone who replys, and a special thanks to John for his detailed explanation

#34 OFFLINE   1953

1953

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 616 posts
Joined: Feb 07, 2006

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:38 PM

Thanks for dealing with the dual posts, I just wasn't getting the answers I needed.

No, I don't realy deal with brownouts everyday, but it seems like whenever a storm sweeps through, I am at the alter of "cross your fingers" or on my knees pulling the surge suppressor plugs for the AV center and the computer [ not a cheap one] [ this plug is buried] from the wall outlets, because they are 25$ surge strips, and I'm paranoid. Problem is, these storms can pop up while I'm sleeping or away from the house.

Do line conditioners [ voltage regulators] realy "clean" the power so there is better performance, or is that just hype? I saw "sine" mentioned more than once, does that go hand in hand with "clean power"? I know, this is a crash course, but the more I glean, the better the informed choice, I think. Who buys the first thing they see? [ Well, I made that mistake as a kid, but not now, unless it's under a hundred,LOL]

I guess calling them [ the companies] with questions is ok, but even though the guy from tripplite was very pleasant, I would have been screaming if after setting up the tripplite product I found out it "hums" -that's a dealbraker, as I don't listen to the tv with the volume cranked [ well, most of the time] That's why I prefer casting a wider net, and I'm gratefull for everyone who replys, and a special thanks to John for his detailed explanation


Man am I confused! All of my statements, regardless of thread, pertained only to AV. :confused:

#35 OFFLINE   satcrazy

satcrazy

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 715 posts
  • LocationGreat lakes, NW Pa.
Joined: Mar 15, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:59 PM

1953

Audio/ video.

Yes, that is the main idea here. I don't understand why you are confused.

Your input also helped!

After looking at the panamax manual, The first page indicates it has the disconnect/protect feature. If the APC does not have this I will be looking real hard at this model. You did say there was some tight restrictions on the warranty. I know it has to be bought from an authorized dealer, but any other red flag?

You also indicate it had none of the problems that the Tripplite had, like audible "hum" and clicking. [ a dealbraker for me]. So that also helped

Edited by satcrazy, 18 March 2012 - 09:16 PM.


#36 OFFLINE   1953

1953

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 616 posts
Joined: Feb 07, 2006

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:26 PM

1953

Audio/ video.

Yes, that is the main idea here. I don't understand why you are confused.

Your input also helped!

After looking at the panamax manual, The first page indicates it has the disconnect/protect feature. If the APC does not have this I will be looking real hard at this model. You did say there was some tight restrictions on the warranty. I know it has to be bought from an authorized dealer, but any other red flag?

You also indicate it had none of the problems that the Tripplite had, like audible "hum" and clicking. [ a dealbraker for me]. So that also helped


Sorry friend. Hard night.

#37 OFFLINE   satcrazy

satcrazy

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 715 posts
  • LocationGreat lakes, NW Pa.
Joined: Mar 15, 2011

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:37 PM

No problem.

#38 OFFLINE   John Williams

John Williams

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 106 posts
Joined: Oct 05, 2011

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:55 PM

Now you are getting me confused on which products you are trying to compare. Let me see if I can run thru some of this briefly again, in different terms.

1) When hum was being discussed, we were talking about voltage regulators (a separate circiut from surge protectors and UPS) - the example you linked to was a Tripplite unit. Although cheap UPS can have hum to them as well - but that's for a different reason and not generally audible from a distance. I don't know if that particular Tripplite unit has audible hum or not, I have never used it. It is a very rare thing you see voltage regulators being used in residential installs. The customer would have to have some REALLY crappy power problems and even then I think a call to the power utility company would be more in order, as there is probably something wrong at the pole.
Again - Voltage regulators are generally only used in special cases. Where there is a real power problem.

2) 'That' Panamax does not have voltage regulation, nor does the APC, nor do most surge protectors. Most of the time, it simply isn't needed in the design. You want good power to pass thru and if the power isn't good, you want the protector to stop it. Simple.

3) 'Protect or Disconnect' is a feature Panamax calls its under & over voltage protection. The APC unit does the exact same thing, as do many quality protectors. I have actually mentioned this 3 times now :lol:

4) Sine wave. The A/C power that comes from your wall is in the form of a Sine Wave: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave
If you have ever bought a power inverter for your auto
http://en.wikipedia....ter_(electrical)
you will notice a warning that comes with it. The output from these things are almost square waved and WILL cause damage to A/C motors, sensitive electronic equipment, etc...
A typical UPS (battery backup) for the home is a modified sine wave. It's better than the output from a cheap auto inverter (almost square) but still not the same as a sine wave. Some equipment doesn't like being ran from this "dirty" power and might lockup. Also, audible noise might be picked up thru audio compnents, lines or hum in video, etc... None of that really matters as the whole point of battery backup is to have power during an outage to safely shut everything down (or for your DVR to keep recording its show).
Pure Sine wave UPS deliver the same quality sine wave as the utility company does. This prevents any noise problems when running on battery and/or lockups of sensitive electronic equipment (rare in A/V).

5) Clean power. Now you are getting into snake oil.
Generally the power coming from your wall is clean enough to not worry about. If there is enough noise coming in on the A/C power to cause audible noise in your audio system or picture problems in your video system; then I suggest you search down the problem with the power more so than buying a device that is advertising to "clean" up your power.
Note: Most system noise or interference is almost always related to a ground loop problem.

#39 OFFLINE   satcrazy

satcrazy

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 715 posts
  • LocationGreat lakes, NW Pa.
Joined: Mar 15, 2011

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:55 PM

The tripplite LC1800 is advertised on tripplite's site as a "automatic voltage regulator", so I thought that's what it does. If it "trims" higher input, and boosts lower input, isn't that a regulator? I guess I misunderstood. When I was reading the reviews for this, more than a few people complained about "hum" and clicking noise. This unit was recommended by a tripplite CSR, after I told him what I was looking for.

The panamax and APC I was looking at also advertises the same function as the LC1800, no compaints about hum or clicking though. Again, I must have misunderstood the function of adjusting the incomming power up or down as "regulating".

Thanks for#4 and 5
Got it.

One other question, how important is it to run a sat or cable coax through one of these "protectors" if [ in my case, Sat] the installer already grounded the incomming cable at a switch box [ in the basement] ?

#40 OFFLINE   John Williams

John Williams

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 106 posts
Joined: Oct 05, 2011

Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:56 AM

The tripplite LC1800 is advertised on tripplite's site as a "automatic voltage regulator", so I thought that's what it does. If it "trims" higher input, and boosts lower input, isn't that a regulator? I guess I misunderstood. When I was reading the reviews for this, more than a few people complained about "hum" and clicking noise. This unit was recommended by a tripplite CSR, after I told him what I was looking for.

The panamax and APC I was looking at also advertises the same function as the LC1800, no compaints about hum or clicking though. Again, I must have misunderstood the function of adjusting the incomming power up or down as "regulating".

One other question, how important is it to run a sat or cable coax through one of these "protectors" if [ in my case, Sat] the installer already grounded the incomming cable at a switch box [ in the basement] ?


That's one thing I hate about typing. What sounds good in my head and what I think is clear on what I'm typing, may not be for someone else reading.

Yes, yes. The Tripplite LC1800 'is' a voltage regulator and not much else. As such, everything that has been discussed about 'voltage regulators' stand true for this product. Which is it can have clicking and hum noise from the autoformer inside (I'm never tested that unit so I don't know how loud it would be). And that such devices are rarely used in residential settings because they are only used for certain types of power problems - specifically when you have voltages that swing around a lot and can be extreme.

No, No. The Panamx 4300 and APC 15 do 'not' have voltage regulators in them, nor does any literature imply this. I do understand that it can get confusing reading some of these marketing materials. But those units do not 'adjust' the voltage coming out of them in anyway. That would require a large heavy autoformer or a battery/inverter assisted system.


Have you ever seen what happens to a cable that's struck by lighting? If it's a good strike, it can vaporize the metal inside. Leaving slag and a burning jacket. If your wiring isn't grounded (to divert the critical voltage to ground), then that could happen in your walls (bye bye house). NEC requires everything coming into the home to be grounded, this is for saftey reasons. So you don't get shocked and so if you take a lighting strike, your house doesn't burn to the ground.
If you do not have surge protection on your coax or data lines: the rather large surge that WILL still be on the line after the ground point, is more than enough to knock out your equipment. Without the NEC ground point outside, you could see you equipment explode and burn on the inside.

As far as grounding the satellite coax coming in. CATV, telephone, A/C power are the most likely ways a strike can come into your home. A satellite dish would have to take a strike or near strike to come into the home (much less likely, unless it's on a pole out in the yard or at the highest point on the roof). But if it does happen and you're not protected.... And god help you if that happens and you're not even grounded.




spam firewall