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Guest Message by DevFuse

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DirecTV planning for Ultra-HD


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140 replies to this topic

#126 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:56 PM

It will be interesting to see where the world is at in 6 to 7 years with 4k....

I would not be surprised if we don;t have hard drives that are 30 TB at about the same prices we have today for a 3tb drive... I think that is something that has to happen before anything else.

I expect movie theaters to jump all over this tech much faster than consumers.


The 4K movie theater I frequent when in Chicago is amazing.......

http://www.rosemont.com/muvico.php

https://www.muvico.com/Default.asp?

#127 OFFLINE   mreposter

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:42 AM

I have 2 bad drives this week. One did the click of death (click click click click click).


Doncha just hate the click of death? :mad:
..........
.......... There are none so blind as those who can not see it in HD.
.......... Directv customer since January 2000.
..........

#128 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:19 AM

I would assume he means that as with other flash memory devices (cards, USB memory keys, etc.) SSD storage cells are only good for a certain "very limited" (compared to HDDs) number of read/write cycles before failure which makes them unsuitable for DVRs.


Thanx, so much for waiting for SSDs for my DVRs.

Rich

#129 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:20 AM

It's not that hard. :)

If you'll look inside of SSD, you will find a couple (or more chips), one is a controller (who is responsible for wearing) and [NAND] memory chips.

Now, lets try [far] analogy: if you need bend a wire (copper or aluminum) to 90 degree and back. How many time you would able to do that at one particular spot? not to many, right ?
Then try bend once in one place, return it in straight position, shift your fingers to 1" and bend there. Do that N-2 times, then shift to next new position.
So total number of bends would be much bigger.

Back to SSD/NAND memory's cells - they have a limited number of changing status(1->0, 0->1). It's technological limit and companies working on extend it.
For now the limit could be reached pretty fast as file system (FAT, NTFS, EXTx, etc) using storage: changing static system meta data faster then new data creating/modifying.
If the SSD controller will blindly follow these commands, it will changes same calls with the high frequency and will 'wear' these cells.

To prevent it (increase life of a SSD, not a cells), the controller writing updated sector/cluster to relatively new positions. Dynamically spreading changes, avoid writing to same place often.


So, do you think we'll ever see SSDs that are DVR friendly?

Rich

#130 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:33 AM

Personally, I have only had one off brand hard drive failure since I first started using computers back in the days when you paid $1000 for a 100MB full height drive. I have almost always replaced the drives with larger/cheaper drives long before the drives ever wore out.


I don't remember exactly when I started using PCs, middle to late 80's? Anyhow, I've never had an HDD fail on a computer.

Rich

#131 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:37 AM

Rich in simple terms, SSD technology only has so many write cycles. They have a finite life, not like current spinning drive technology where a drive can last for years and years virtually independent of how many times a particular sector gets written to. Think of it similar to a re-writeable cd or dvd. Another loose analogy would be to a WORM drive(disk), (Write once read many), but in the case of SSD its write say 100,000 times(don't know the exact number). Does that make sense?


Yeah, kinda. I get the "so many cycles" part, but I had assumed the SSDs would work better than the present HDDs. Kinda disappointed. It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around these various technologies, not having a technological computer background. Still learning....:lol:

Rich

#132 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:39 AM

Keep in mind, if it is rated for 100,000 writes, that's not per drive. That's per cell.


Well, that sounds better. Now, how many cells are in these things?

Rich

#133 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:45 AM

I wasnt referring to DirecTv, they obviously give more bandwidth to each channel now than they even need to. I was referring to the source of the programming. Now if they went 4K, then that would mean DirecTv would have a better feed to give us, even on standard HD channels, so Id be happy just being able to watch a football game without every running play turn into a bunch of colored blocks. That would be an improvement for me, even watching a 4K broadcast on my standard TV.


You see that on your Aquos?

Rich

#134 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:55 AM

The 4K movie theater I frequent when in Chicago is amazing.......

http://www.rosemont.com/muvico.php

https://www.muvico.com/Default.asp?

Impressive! I have a similar one here nearby as well.

Just to be clear (pun intended)...having seen several 4K HDTVs at CES this year firsthand - yes - the image quality is stunning...even from only 6 feet away. An 1080p image in comparison (even with 1080p content feeding both sets) is noticeably below that of a 4K screen presentation. That should come as no surprise really.

But we won't be seeing 4K content delivered in any significant quality nor 4K HDTVs in the mainstream market for 1-2 years most likely. Form a content perspective, the leading first candidate would be the new 50GB technology Blu ray disks and new corresponding 4K players coming to the market some time within the next year or so.

It is refreshing, however, that DirecTV is at least thinking about 4K HDTV in their roadmap plans. The bandwidth required to deliver it will be staggering compared to a 1080p signal...but technology always advances....so something new could help bridge at least some of the bandwidth gap.
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#135 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:40 AM

So, do you think we'll ever see SSDs that are DVR friendly?

Rich


We should stop the off-topic track.

[OK, last answers - there are more other better technologies what will allow create better storage, R&D is working day and night to bring it to customer's level. I hope we will see these before end of our life ;).
Number of cells is practically same(with some reserve) as capacity of the SSD multiply by 10, say 250 GB equal to 2,500,000,000,000 cells]

Edited by P Smith, 17 March 2012 - 02:12 PM.


#136 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:10 PM

With a necessity for such dynamic distribution of data changes to preserve memory cell life, its good thing slow downs due to file fragmentation are not an issue with SSDs since like RAM its has a true random access capability.


I never meant to say it did, but was only claiming that a SSD is "like RAM" in that it shares the same capability of having a true random access capability.

Thus data access slow downs due to file fragmentation on a HDD are not applicable to SSDs.

Repeating that SSDs are random access doesn't change the fact that NAND memory, that makes up the lion's share of SSD devices, is NOT random access. SSDs are not like RAM in that they are not truly random access devices. That there is no head traveling and no sectors waiting to come around is a decided advantage to be certain but you can't just ask for a byte without getting an entire block.

The other downside that the SSD life expectancy proponents don't seem to realize is that a single byte change in a NAND block requires the entire block to be rewritten and that counts against the ultimate lifetime of the entire block, not just the byte or the bit.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#137 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:29 PM

Repeating that SSDs are random access doesn't change the fact that NAND memory, that makes up the lion's share of SSD devices, is NOT random access. SSDs are not like RAM in that they are not truly random access devices. That there is no head traveling and no sectors waiting to come around is a decided advantage to be certain but you can't just ask for a byte without getting an entire block.

The other downside that the SSD life expectancy proponents don't seem to realize is that a single byte change in a NAND block requires the entire block to be rewritten and that counts against the ultimate lifetime of the entire block, not just the byte or the bit.


That's very important point !

Adding to that - the sector [block] size is 2048 bytes.

#138 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:46 PM

Ok, lets get back to topic. If you want to discuss SSDs, start a new thread in the tech forum.

:backtotop

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Since it costs 1.66¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 3.32¢ worth.  That 3.32¢ is my own and not the 3.32¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.


#139 OFFLINE   cjaredscott

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:09 AM

This would be cool! :)

#140 OFFLINE   cjaredscott

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:10 AM

I found another article -- Click Here!

#141 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

I found another article -- Click Here!


That's followup, nothing new, quoting the same pitch :down: with same "8000-line" fake up.




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