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Guest Message by DevFuse

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1080i shows recorded in 720p


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45 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

Wow! The link shows a rear projection set, though.

And thanks!

Large Direct view CRTs were reviewed as weighing as much as a Buick. :eek2:
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#27 OFFLINE   makaiguy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:33 PM

And yes DirecTV's SD does look pretty good on our old CRTs, much better than on newer fix pixeled displays.

I've never been all that displeased with SD on DirecTV, not as good as HD, of course, but quite watchable so I've never understood the vehemence of those denouncing DirecTV's SD. I figured it might be that my set just did a better job of upscaling than some others. It never occurred to me that it's being an older 1080i CRT might be the reason.

Large Direct view CRTs were reviewed as weighing as much as a Buick. :eek2:

Mine's only a 34" Toshiba (largest that would fit in the built-in TV niche over the fireplace) and if I remember right it's about 160 lbs. I can't imagine what a really big one would weigh.
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#28 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:49 PM

Mine's only a 34" Toshiba (largest that would fit in the built-in TV niche over the fireplace) and if I remember right it's about 160 lbs. I can't imagine what a really big one would weigh.

The Sony that had that review was close to 232 lbs.
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#29 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:24 AM

I was responding to Harsh's post that TVs weren't 1080i native, that is not true as you and I can both show.

Two reasons your wrong:

1. The aperture grill of colored pixels is typically not 1920x1080 in the viewable area (along with the arrangement of the pixels that may be striped or in staggered triangles).
2. The better color CRTs are typically rated at less than 1000 horizontal lines.

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#30 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:28 AM

Two reasons your wrong:

Maybe your post should haven't used "typically" twice, or is it your two reasons are only "typically" wrong, allowing for the two reasons to be correct in some cases.
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#31 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:16 PM

Wow! The link shows a rear projection set, though.

And thanks!


Yes, it is a rear projection CRT. It has 3 CRT tubes (red green and blue I believe) in it that bounce off a mirror inside and project the content on the screen. They can have convergence issues where the signals from the 3 CRTs don't line up properly so you see strange colored shadows around objects etc (kind of looks like watching an old anaglyph 3D movie without the glasses). However, if you get the convergence set up well they often have some of the best picture quality available. Convergence issues and size/weight are the main reasons they died off and were replaced by LCD and DLP rear projectors (and SXRD/LCOS from Sony and JVC). Price was also a big reason, the prices had come down so far that the manufacturers were barely making any profit on them. I bought that 65" TV for around $600 back in 2008 I think. I also bought a 57F59 around the same time for $650. The F59 was the last model HD-CRT Hitachi made, the F710 was the previous years model.

Now days all rear projectors are pretty much dead though, I think Mitsubishi is the only one still making rear projection TVs and I think I heard they are stopping soon.

My problem is now they both still work great so my wife won't let me spend money on a new 3D plasma :(

Two reasons your wrong:

1. The aperture grill of colored pixels is typically not 1920x1080 in the viewable area (along with the arrangement of the pixels that may be striped or in staggered triangles).
2. The better color CRTs are typically rated at less than 1000 horizontal lines.


Yes with overscan the CRTs didn't really show 1080 lines most of the time. However some owners shiffed up the CRT array and were able to reduce overscan significantly. It was more difficult to get proper convergence along the outer edges of the TV though (which is why the factory purposely had so much overscan).

The fact of the matter is though that the TVs are 1080i native and you were wrong.

Edited by Beerstalker, 28 March 2012 - 02:25 PM.

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#32 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 03:02 PM

RE: A new (3D) Plasma---- wouldn't your wife be impressed by gaining back several feet of room, plus an elegant black bezel that goes with any decor??

Best of luck!

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#33 OFFLINE   n3vino

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:55 PM

Beerstalker, I learned to do a few tweaks on my set. Convergence, red push, and a couple of other things. But overscan is something I didn't want to fool with. But I do agree with you that harsh is wrong. Our sets are rated at 1080 lines.

I'm in the same boat as you. I can't justify getting a plasma because my set is still working really good. But once it goes out, that's when I'll make the move. It's nine years old so we'll see how much longer before the converence IC's or the tubes go out.

#34 OFFLINE   Vin

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:32 AM

I'm in the same boat as you. I can't justify getting a plasma because my set is still working really good. But once it goes out, that's when I'll make the move.


Same here. Only after spending time watching the 52" Samsung LCD in my living room do I feel the need to upgrade the dinosaur in the man cave > http://reviews.cnet....7-31002968.html :)
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#35 OFFLINE   texasbrit

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

I have a Toshiba projection CRT TV, and I have learned how to set up just about everything through the service menu. It gives a great picture, particulalry in the two or three months after calibration, and on SD signals is better than just about any LCD you can find, because being analog it does not need to use a scaler.
But harsh is correct - although these TVs are specified as 1080i, and do accept a 1080i signal, the actual visible resolution is less than that, it depends on a whole load of issues including the spot size, and how well the CRT is focused. Most 1080i CRT projection TVs tested resolved less than 1000 lines, even the good ones. My guess is that most of these TVs that are still in use perform worse than that, unless the user spends a lot of time in calibration.

#36 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:00 PM

I have a Toshiba projection CRT TV, and I have learned how to set up just about everything through the service menu. It gives a great picture, particulalry in the two or three months after calibration, and on SD signals is better than just about any LCD you can find, because being analog it does not need to use a scaler.
But harsh is correct - although these TVs are specified as 1080i, and do accept a 1080i signal, the actual visible resolution is less than that, it depends on a whole load of issues including the spot size, and how well the CRT is focused. Most 1080i CRT projection TVs tested resolved less than 1000 lines, even the good ones. My guess is that most of these TVs that are still in use perform worse than that, unless the user spends a lot of time in calibration.

A few cents:
My first HDTV was a Sony HD ready RPTV with CRTs. Didn't display 720p, so it was SD or 1080i.
Overscan was huge, as they used it for the auto alignment function to use the detectors around the edges.
I think I did get the overscan down to a very small degree, which lost the auto alignment, but since I was doing this through the service menu, I was aligning it myself. [BTW stay out of service menus unless you've got lots of time, as it just isn't worth it IMO].
Since every display normally uses overscan, or you'll see the closed captioning data "noise", "Who cares" if instead of 1080 lines, you're getting 80 less?
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#37 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:58 AM

Yes, it is a rear projection CRT.

How many HD projection (either rear or front) CRTs do you suppose are still out there in the wild?

With convergence issues being very real and something that you cannot reasonably eliminate (based on shifts in the magnetic North Pole if nothing else), the idea that a three-gun unit could resolve to 1080 lines viewable is not bloody likely.

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#38 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:13 AM

How many HD projection (either rear or front) CRTs do you suppose are still out there in the wild?

More than I guess you might think.
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#39 OFFLINE   JeffBowser

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:34 AM

I still retain a 65" Mitsubishi RP in my game room. It is now a decade old. Being as it is easier to leave it in the game room than to remove doors to get it back outside, it will likely stay there until it dies totally, in which case I will simply dismantle it. It will be interesting to see how long it stays watchable.
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#40 OFFLINE   lesz

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:11 AM

I still retain a 65" Mitsubishi RP in my game room. It is now a decade old. Being as it is easier to leave it in the game room than to remove doors to get it back outside, it will likely stay there until it dies totally, in which case I will simply dismantle it. It will be interesting to see how long it stays watchable.


I've never had a CRT rear projection set, but my first HD TV was a 40 inch Sony XBR CRT. From the day that it was delivered and set up by the delivery guys until it left my house, it was never moved, and, when I finally did replace it with my first LCD in 2006, I was more than happy to give it away free to the first person who was willing to accept the responsibility/burden of getting it out of the house.

#41 OFFLINE   texasbrit

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:18 AM

We really have wandered off topic here, sorry....
I know quite a few people who still have these TVs, often in a game room. Setting convergence on one of these Tvs (like my Toshiba) is certainly a challenge - first, switch the TV on and leave for 30 minutes to warm up. Then go into the service menu through a "secret" button sequence, select the convergence grid, a multipoint convergence grid will appear (actually three grids, one for each color red/green/blue.) Put over the TV screen a preprinted sheet of plastic with the correct grid geometry. Use the remote to select just one color (usually green). Adjust EVERY convergence point so it is lined up with the grid. A major task, since adjusting one point moves the ones close to it. When the green is finished, adjust the red and then the blue.
Elapsed time - maybe three hours. There are separate adjustments for each input on the TV, by the way, so if you wanted to set them all it would take a weekend.
You might also have to adjust the mechanical focus of the three guns.

Plus if you want to set up everything, you have to use other service menu settings to correct for distortion, color intensity and so one.
My guess is that to completely calibrate one of these TVs would take around 20-30 hours......!!

#42 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

My guess is that to completely calibrate one of these TVs would take around 20-30 hours......!!

Add in my learning curve, and it was well over 40
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#43 OFFLINE   fleckrj

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:50 AM

Add in my learning curve, and it was well over 40


Which is why an ISF calibration cost almost as much as the TV, but the results were well worth it.

I replaced my 55" Toshiba rear projection CRT TV last year, and I just replaced my last direct view CRT (a Mitsubishi 27") last month. The SD programming from DirecTV looked much better on those sets than it does on any of my LCD or plasma TVs.

#44 OFFLINE   texasbrit

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:36 PM

Yes, SD on any CRT based system is typically much better than any flatscreen TV. Plasma is usually better than LCD, but some LCD TVs just have a terrible SD picture.

#45 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:55 PM

More than I guess you might think.

I can't imagine that there were that many HD CRT projection TVs to begin with.

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#46 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:07 PM

I can't imagine that there were that many HD CRT projection TVs to begin with.

back in '03 that was about all there was for a "reasonable" price.
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