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62 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:39 PM

I'm sorry, who's Van?

The gray haired guy in the videos.

Edited by veryoldschool, 15 April 2012 - 04:45 PM.

A.K.A VOS

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#27 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:34 PM

The gray haired guy in the videos:
[ATTACH]28882[/ATTACH]


Sorry for my slow-wittiness if its a well known nick-name or some other. But how does "Ray Edwards" whom that is, translate into "Van?" :sure:

#28 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:11 PM

Being that the 101 focal point is the center of the reflector and the way the reflector is designed the proper way to align the kaku is dither on the 101. Focusing on the 99 or 103 will not center you on the other. If it was the other way around I am sure the people that desing the satellite dishes and such would let every one know since it would be in the interest of dtv to do so.

Attached Files



#29 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:14 PM

While these aren't to scale, they should show why using Ka [blue] is better than Ku [yellow]

[ATTACH]28879[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]28880[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]28881[/ATTACH]


This diagram would indicate the KA band is the center of the ODU focal point when it is the other way around.

#30 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:42 PM

This diagram would indicate the KA band is the center of the ODU focal point when it is the other way around.

"The point" was when the Ka SATs are peaked, even if the Ku was slightly off, its beam being wider, would still be much closer to center, and with less rainfade would be the optimal alignment.
A.K.A VOS

#31 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:48 PM

Yeah but you cant center in on both the 99 and 103 but if you center in on the 101 the reflector will do what is was designed to do and grab the other 2 sats with a peak alignment on all 3.

#32 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:59 PM

Yeah but you cant center in on both the 99 and 103 but if you center in on the 101 the reflector will do what is was designed to do and grab the other 2 sats with a peak alignment on all 3.

Actually you can, just like you could with the old Phase III.
These dish reflectors aren't round, and have been design with a focal "point" to in fact not be a "point", but and area for the LNBs to be centered in.
A.K.A VOS

#33 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:09 PM

The old phase 3 was centered on the 110 and the reflector was desinged to pick the other 2 the same as the kaku. I mean how can you say that the people that design these dishes based on the fleet of satellites they are going to be picking up are wrong by taining their techs on the proper way to acheive a peak on "their" satellites. You are entitled to your own opinion and I respect your knowledge based upon your post here but I have to disagree with you here and im sure many others would also. DirecTV provides their techs meters that read 99 and 103 and specifically tell them not to use them to dither the dish because it will never center all the satellites properly.

#34 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:17 PM

The old phase 3 was centered on the 110 and the reflector was desinged to pick the other 2 the same as the kaku. I mean how can you say that the people that design these dishes based on the fleet of satellites they are going to be picking up are wrong by taining their techs on the proper way to acheive a peak on "their" satellites. You are entitled to your own opinion and I respect your knowledge based upon your post here but I have to disagree with you here and im sure many others would also. DirecTV provides their techs meters that read 99 and 103 and specifically tell them not to use them to dither the dish because it will never center all the satellites properly.

I guess I was just taught better.

Now if you want to put some numbers to this:

Use a meter to measure all three SATs, with them centered on 101.
If the mast is very well plumbed, and the skew is set right, you should only need to change the AZ between SATs to find their peaks.
How many turns of the adjuster and how much did the dBµV change?


Would you like to explain this post?

If it's raining out, dithering to the 103 gives me a better shot at passing IV than dithering to the 101.


A.K.A VOS

#35 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

Would you like to explain this post?


Well 103 satellite uses 1650-2150mhz the highest of any satellite so sure it has more attenuation and the IV retest is somewhat of a joke he could have just kept hitting retest and it would have passed without going out in the rain most of the time also if he was able to get it higher by pointing right at the 103 then he didnt do it right the 1st time around.

#36 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:00 PM

Here are some numbers off of dishpointer to the 99, 101, and 103, from both the west coast and east coast:

40.0º lat 123.8º long
99 az =144.6º = 0.2º error [relative to 101]
101 az= 146.8º 146.85º= 0.05º error [relative to the 99/103 center]
103 az= 149.1º = 0.3º error [relative to 101]

40.0º lat 74.15º long
99 az = 216.0º = 0.8º error [relative to 101]
101 az = 218.8º 218.2º= -0.6º error [relative to 99/103 center]
103 az = 220.4º = 0.4º error [relative to 101]

The west coast has a much smaller error than the east coast.
A.K.A VOS

#37 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

Well 103 satellite uses 1650-2150mhz the highest of any satellite so sure it has more attenuation and the IV retest is somewhat of a joke he could have just kept hitting retest and it would have passed without going out in the rain most of the time also if he was able to get it higher by pointing right at the 103 then he didnt do it right the 1st time around.

So does 99, but the real loss is in the Ka 19+ GHz range.
A.K.A VOS

#38 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:31 PM

Which is what the 103 satellite uses 19.7-20.2ghz while the 99 uses 18.3-18.8ghz

#39 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

Well 103 satellite uses 1650-2150mhz the highest of any satellite so sure it has more attenuation ...


So does 99, but the real loss is in the Ka 19+ GHz range.


I assume he's referring only to CONUS beam transponders, of which there are none at 99W Ka-hi Band, which is what's used by the meters for dish alignment.

#40 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:06 PM

I assume he's referring only to CONUS beam transponders, of which there are none at 99W Ka-hi Band, which is what's used by the meters for dish alignment.

Doesn't D11 also have Ka-hi tps? I will admit I have kept track.
As to the loss of the 1650-2150 range, it wouldn't change by peaking the 103 LNB, so that was pointless, and the dish alignment was what did it.

While I don't like picking on other members, this thread has shown the reason the last two installs I've seen out here had low numbers of the 99 & 103 setup screens and for both of them, peaking the Ka levels was needed, to regain about 10 points on the receivers.


IIRC the Ka LO in the LNB is 18.050 GHz, so Ka-lo downlink is 18.3 to 18.8 GHz, and Ka-hi is 19.5-20.2 GHz, but the main difference is the Ku being "only" in the 11-12 GHz range.

Edited by veryoldschool, 15 April 2012 - 09:19 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#41 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:39 PM

Doesn't D11 also have Ka-hi tps? I will admit I have kept track.
As to the loss of the 1650-2150 range, it wouldn't change by peaking the 103 LNB, so that was pointless, and the dish alignment was what did it.

While I don't like picking on other members, this thread has shown the reason the last two installs I've seen out here had low numbers of the 99 & 103 setup screens and for both of them, peaking the Ka levels was needed, to regain about 10 points on the receivers.


IIRC the Ka LO in the LNB is 18.050 GHz, so Ka-lo downlink is 18.3 to 18.8 GHz, and Ka-hi is 19.5-20.2 GHz, but the main difference is the Ku being "only" in the 11-12 GHz range.


D11 is Ka-B-band 18.3-18.8ghz and after the LNB Ka-Lo 250-750mhz. The 103 is usually where everyone has problems passing IV because of the attenuation on longer cable runs, to many splitters, and if not peaked properly rain fade. As to the loss the dish alignment may have got him past the IV retest or it could have just slacked off on the rain??? no telling but if it was the dish alignment he didnt do it right the 1st time. Picking on someone?? lol This info comes from the people that run, design, control, whatever you want to call it at DTV so for one person to say they are all wrong is just silly to me. As for your 2 installs you saw with low signal that explains nothing there are alot of installers for DTv that as much as they are trained (although some are not) they still dont get it right it only explains they didnt do it right.

#42 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:33 PM

D11 is Ka-B-band 18.3-18.8ghz and after the LNB Ka-Lo 250-750mhz. The 103 is usually where everyone has problems passing IV because of the attenuation on longer cable runs, to many splitters, and if not peaked properly rain fade. As to the loss the dish alignment may have got him past the IV retest or it could have just slacked off on the rain??? no telling but if it was the dish alignment he didnt do it right the 1st time. Picking on someone?? lol This info comes from the people that run, design, control, whatever you want to call it at DTV so for one person to say they are all wrong is just silly to me. As for your 2 installs you saw with low signal that explains nothing there are alot of installers for DTv that as much as they are trained (although some are not) they still dont get it right it only explains they didnt do it right.

This has obliviously become pointless.

"Splitters" are only used with a SWiM, so the receiver would need to be using one of the last two channels to be above 1600 MHz.

You do what you want, as it makes no difference to me.
Others that may read this may see what I'm sayings, as one or two have posted here.
A.K.A VOS

#43 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:22 AM

Here are some numbers off of dishpointer to the 99, 101, and 103, from both the west coast and east coast:

40.0º lat 123.8º long
99 az =144.6º = 0.2º error [relative to 101]
101 az= 146.8º 146.85º= 0.05º error [relative to the 99/103 center]
103 az= 149.1º = 0.3º error [relative to 101]

40.0º lat 74.15º long
99 az = 216.0º = 0.8º error [relative to 101]
101 az = 218.8º 218.2º= -0.6º error [relative to 99/103 center]
103 az = 220.4º = 0.4º error [relative to 101]

The west coast has a much smaller error than the east coast.

I needed to visualize this numbers so these are a bit more to scale and from the LNB view:

http://www.dbstalk.c...94&d=1334556755

Though the differences is only tenths of a degree, if you centered on 99 or 103, then the other Ka might be slightly detuned.

The east coast looks to be more detuned if centered on the 101.

http://www.dbstalk.c...95&d=1334556755

Where not centering on the 101, but instead balancing between 99 & 103, would look to improve the Ka levels.

http://www.dbstalk.c...96&d=1334556755

Attached Thumbnails

  • west Ka-Ku.png
  • East Ka-Ku.png
  • East- Ka-Ku.png

A.K.A VOS

#44 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:24 AM

Let me explain the 101 in the rain comment. If I dither by the book to the 101, I will pass IV so long as it's sunny or mildly raining. If it's raining, I can usually get an extra 0.5 or so on the SNR for the 103 by dithering to 103ca tx16.

PS: attached is the relevant training section I was referencing before.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  sat.bmp   905.77KB   29 downloads


#45 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:33 AM

Let me explain the 101 in the rain comment. If I dither by the book to the 101, I will pass IV so long as it's sunny or mildly raining. If it's raining, I can usually get an extra 0.5 or so on the SNR for the 103 by dithering to 103ca tx16.

PS: attached is the relevant training section I was referencing before.

Your picture is basically showing the same thing I've been trying to point out.
Not sure if it's your location that makes 103 the harder one, but out here on the west coast, 99 is the one I need to pay attention to, as it's the lowest, so I peak it and don't have a problem with 103. Been this way since D11 became active.

It would be a shame if a lot of the discussion came from someone that had a birdog meter that should read the Ka SATs, but doesn't due to simply not updating the SAT config file from Birdog for their meter to add 99 & 103.
A.K.A VOS

#46 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:32 AM

Birddog has nothing to do with this. I do have a birddog ultra which is the only one that reads 99 and 103 but I also have a sat buddy and an AIM meter. All of which I use the 101 to point the dish. Even Horizon the people that make the Birddog say to use 101 and dither because it provides the best overall signal.

DirecTv 99 & 103 Files
"Ka DTV 99 RF NL" (No Lock) and "Ka DTV 103 RF NL" (No Lock) files have been added to the Ultra download page. These files will not lock on 99/103 but will show RF strength.

NOTE - These files are for info puposes only and are NOT to be construed as a substitute for the required dithering of every Ka/Ku dish.


By the way who is VAN?

#47 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:01 PM

By the way who is VAN?


Thats why I keep coming back to this thread. I get to watch a video in the morning, nothing wrong with a little humor. VOS please explain.

Plus I'm curious about the OP's issue.
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#48 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:20 PM

VOS please explain.

An installer told me Van is who is in and makes some of the training videos.
I've never met him, so can only go by what I was told, but some of the videos leave a lot to be desired. One was making a point out of checking the AC plug wiring and having the customer get it repaired while the tech was installing the dish. Like a customer would have someone "on call" that quickly, let alone if the ground was open, since the new receivers don't have a 3 prong plug, it wouldn't matter. :nono:

Then there are things like this where it was done by engineering like this:
http://www.dbstalk.c...29&d=1273790719

But then Denver issued this bulletin:
http://www.dbstalk.c...28&d=1273790719

Which merely wastes a BSF that wasn't needed in the first.

Edited by veryoldschool, 16 April 2012 - 12:27 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#49 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:06 PM

I have an HR20-100 I've tried it both ways maybe sometimes engineers make mistakes.


Most flat panels have a three prong plug. From what I've read there is a floating chassis ground that can have 40 to 75 volts AC present for noise reduction. Connecting a properly grounded IRD gives the TV a path to ground if one isn't present. We are supposed to test for this voltage and anything over 85 volts AC would halt the install.

An installer told me

LMAO! You of all people...I was expecting an anecdote. :lol:
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#50 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:26 PM

I have an HR20-100 I've tried it both ways maybe sometimes engineers make mistakes.


Most flat panels have a three prong plug. From what I've read there is a floating chassis ground that can have 40 to 75 volts AC present for noise reduction. Connecting a properly grounded IRD gives the TV a path to ground if one isn't present. We are supposed to test for this voltage and anything over 85 volts AC would halt the install.

An installer told me

LMAO! You of all people...I was expecting an anecdote. :lol:

Maybe I should have said a "respected forum member" is was an installer told me.
Checking voltages makes perfect sense, but the video was using the Home Depot three LED tester, which doesn't.
Grounding the coax is the ground for the receivers without a 3-prong plug.

While engineers do make mistakes, in the case above, there is no electrical difference, so should you know what the difference is, "I'm all ears".

Not everything out of Denver is stupid, but "there was this one", where the tech had a DECA "reduced networking" error. He did everything he could and passed it up the line for help.
This was the rare time, where the coax from the dish to the splitter was the wrong length and there was a phase problem with the DECA signal coming back to the 8-way splitter.
Instead of cutting a few inches off the coax, which changes the phase, "Denver" had the tech add a 2-way splitter in front of the 8-way and move the PI to it. What this did was increase the signal loss to the receiver(s) but changed the line length too. The change in line length fixed the problem, but the same thing would have been done without any more loss, by shortening the coax from the dish, by only a few inches.

I guess I should also add that a BSF on the 8-way's input would also have resolved the problem, but the tech wasn't "allowed to" use one. :nono:

Edited by veryoldschool, 16 April 2012 - 01:56 PM.

A.K.A VOS




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