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62 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:07 PM

VOS is right. That is why they use lasers on levels and not flashlights.

Tivo Premier XL4, Tivo Premier, Tivo HD whole home on Xfinity HD, DirecTv Whole Home with 39" high gain KaKu dish, Roku3,SageTv 8 TB Win8 Server -> DVDO Edge-> Denon AVR, Klipsch KB15's/Panasonic 55ST60 plasma"


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#22 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:29 PM

The information I'm looking at is designed specifically for the AIM and is dated April 2, 2012. Anecdotally, I agree with you. If it's raining out, dithering to the 103 gives me a better shot at passing IV than dithering to the 101.

#23 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:30 PM

While these aren't to scale, they should show why using Ka [blue] is better than Ku [yellow]

Ka-Ku1.png

Ka-Ku2.png

Ka-Ku.png
A.K.A VOS

#24 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

The information I'm looking at is designed specifically for the AIM and is dated April 2, 2012. Anecdotally, I agree with you. If it's raining out, dithering to the 103 gives me a better shot at passing IV than dithering to the 101.

I've had a long standing problem with Van.
A.K.A VOS

#25 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:36 PM

I'm sorry, who's Van?

#26 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:39 PM

I'm sorry, who's Van?

The gray haired guy in the videos.

Edited by veryoldschool, 15 April 2012 - 04:45 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#27 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:34 PM

The gray haired guy in the videos:
[ATTACH]28882[/ATTACH]


Sorry for my slow-wittiness if its a well known nick-name or some other. But how does "Ray Edwards" whom that is, translate into "Van?" :sure:

#28 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:11 PM

Being that the 101 focal point is the center of the reflector and the way the reflector is designed the proper way to align the kaku is dither on the 101. Focusing on the 99 or 103 will not center you on the other. If it was the other way around I am sure the people that desing the satellite dishes and such would let every one know since it would be in the interest of dtv to do so.

Attached Files



#29 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:14 PM

While these aren't to scale, they should show why using Ka [blue] is better than Ku [yellow]

[ATTACH]28879[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]28880[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]28881[/ATTACH]


This diagram would indicate the KA band is the center of the ODU focal point when it is the other way around.

#30 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:42 PM

This diagram would indicate the KA band is the center of the ODU focal point when it is the other way around.

"The point" was when the Ka SATs are peaked, even if the Ku was slightly off, its beam being wider, would still be much closer to center, and with less rainfade would be the optimal alignment.
A.K.A VOS

#31 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:48 PM

Yeah but you cant center in on both the 99 and 103 but if you center in on the 101 the reflector will do what is was designed to do and grab the other 2 sats with a peak alignment on all 3.

#32 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:59 PM

Yeah but you cant center in on both the 99 and 103 but if you center in on the 101 the reflector will do what is was designed to do and grab the other 2 sats with a peak alignment on all 3.

Actually you can, just like you could with the old Phase III.
These dish reflectors aren't round, and have been design with a focal "point" to in fact not be a "point", but and area for the LNBs to be centered in.
A.K.A VOS

#33 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:09 PM

The old phase 3 was centered on the 110 and the reflector was desinged to pick the other 2 the same as the kaku. I mean how can you say that the people that design these dishes based on the fleet of satellites they are going to be picking up are wrong by taining their techs on the proper way to acheive a peak on "their" satellites. You are entitled to your own opinion and I respect your knowledge based upon your post here but I have to disagree with you here and im sure many others would also. DirecTV provides their techs meters that read 99 and 103 and specifically tell them not to use them to dither the dish because it will never center all the satellites properly.

#34 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:17 PM

The old phase 3 was centered on the 110 and the reflector was desinged to pick the other 2 the same as the kaku. I mean how can you say that the people that design these dishes based on the fleet of satellites they are going to be picking up are wrong by taining their techs on the proper way to acheive a peak on "their" satellites. You are entitled to your own opinion and I respect your knowledge based upon your post here but I have to disagree with you here and im sure many others would also. DirecTV provides their techs meters that read 99 and 103 and specifically tell them not to use them to dither the dish because it will never center all the satellites properly.

I guess I was just taught better.

Now if you want to put some numbers to this:

Use a meter to measure all three SATs, with them centered on 101.
If the mast is very well plumbed, and the skew is set right, you should only need to change the AZ between SATs to find their peaks.
How many turns of the adjuster and how much did the dBµV change?


Would you like to explain this post?

If it's raining out, dithering to the 103 gives me a better shot at passing IV than dithering to the 101.


A.K.A VOS

#35 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

Would you like to explain this post?


Well 103 satellite uses 1650-2150mhz the highest of any satellite so sure it has more attenuation and the IV retest is somewhat of a joke he could have just kept hitting retest and it would have passed without going out in the rain most of the time also if he was able to get it higher by pointing right at the 103 then he didnt do it right the 1st time around.

#36 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:00 PM

Here are some numbers off of dishpointer to the 99, 101, and 103, from both the west coast and east coast:

40.0º lat 123.8º long
99 az =144.6º = 0.2º error [relative to 101]
101 az= 146.8º 146.85º= 0.05º error [relative to the 99/103 center]
103 az= 149.1º = 0.3º error [relative to 101]

40.0º lat 74.15º long
99 az = 216.0º = 0.8º error [relative to 101]
101 az = 218.8º 218.2º= -0.6º error [relative to 99/103 center]
103 az = 220.4º = 0.4º error [relative to 101]

The west coast has a much smaller error than the east coast.
A.K.A VOS

#37 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

Well 103 satellite uses 1650-2150mhz the highest of any satellite so sure it has more attenuation and the IV retest is somewhat of a joke he could have just kept hitting retest and it would have passed without going out in the rain most of the time also if he was able to get it higher by pointing right at the 103 then he didnt do it right the 1st time around.

So does 99, but the real loss is in the Ka 19+ GHz range.
A.K.A VOS

#38 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:31 PM

Which is what the 103 satellite uses 19.7-20.2ghz while the 99 uses 18.3-18.8ghz

#39 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

Well 103 satellite uses 1650-2150mhz the highest of any satellite so sure it has more attenuation ...


So does 99, but the real loss is in the Ka 19+ GHz range.


I assume he's referring only to CONUS beam transponders, of which there are none at 99W Ka-hi Band, which is what's used by the meters for dish alignment.

#40 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:06 PM

I assume he's referring only to CONUS beam transponders, of which there are none at 99W Ka-hi Band, which is what's used by the meters for dish alignment.

Doesn't D11 also have Ka-hi tps? I will admit I have kept track.
As to the loss of the 1650-2150 range, it wouldn't change by peaking the 103 LNB, so that was pointless, and the dish alignment was what did it.

While I don't like picking on other members, this thread has shown the reason the last two installs I've seen out here had low numbers of the 99 & 103 setup screens and for both of them, peaking the Ka levels was needed, to regain about 10 points on the receivers.


IIRC the Ka LO in the LNB is 18.050 GHz, so Ka-lo downlink is 18.3 to 18.8 GHz, and Ka-hi is 19.5-20.2 GHz, but the main difference is the Ku being "only" in the 11-12 GHz range.

Edited by veryoldschool, 15 April 2012 - 09:19 PM.

A.K.A VOS




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