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62 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:39 PM

Doesn't D11 also have Ka-hi tps? I will admit I have kept track.
As to the loss of the 1650-2150 range, it wouldn't change by peaking the 103 LNB, so that was pointless, and the dish alignment was what did it.

While I don't like picking on other members, this thread has shown the reason the last two installs I've seen out here had low numbers of the 99 & 103 setup screens and for both of them, peaking the Ka levels was needed, to regain about 10 points on the receivers.


IIRC the Ka LO in the LNB is 18.050 GHz, so Ka-lo downlink is 18.3 to 18.8 GHz, and Ka-hi is 19.5-20.2 GHz, but the main difference is the Ku being "only" in the 11-12 GHz range.


D11 is Ka-B-band 18.3-18.8ghz and after the LNB Ka-Lo 250-750mhz. The 103 is usually where everyone has problems passing IV because of the attenuation on longer cable runs, to many splitters, and if not peaked properly rain fade. As to the loss the dish alignment may have got him past the IV retest or it could have just slacked off on the rain??? no telling but if it was the dish alignment he didnt do it right the 1st time. Picking on someone?? lol This info comes from the people that run, design, control, whatever you want to call it at DTV so for one person to say they are all wrong is just silly to me. As for your 2 installs you saw with low signal that explains nothing there are alot of installers for DTv that as much as they are trained (although some are not) they still dont get it right it only explains they didnt do it right.

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#42 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:33 PM

D11 is Ka-B-band 18.3-18.8ghz and after the LNB Ka-Lo 250-750mhz. The 103 is usually where everyone has problems passing IV because of the attenuation on longer cable runs, to many splitters, and if not peaked properly rain fade. As to the loss the dish alignment may have got him past the IV retest or it could have just slacked off on the rain??? no telling but if it was the dish alignment he didnt do it right the 1st time. Picking on someone?? lol This info comes from the people that run, design, control, whatever you want to call it at DTV so for one person to say they are all wrong is just silly to me. As for your 2 installs you saw with low signal that explains nothing there are alot of installers for DTv that as much as they are trained (although some are not) they still dont get it right it only explains they didnt do it right.

This has obliviously become pointless.

"Splitters" are only used with a SWiM, so the receiver would need to be using one of the last two channels to be above 1600 MHz.

You do what you want, as it makes no difference to me.
Others that may read this may see what I'm sayings, as one or two have posted here.
A.K.A VOS

#43 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:22 AM

Here are some numbers off of dishpointer to the 99, 101, and 103, from both the west coast and east coast:

40.0º lat 123.8º long
99 az =144.6º = 0.2º error [relative to 101]
101 az= 146.8º 146.85º= 0.05º error [relative to the 99/103 center]
103 az= 149.1º = 0.3º error [relative to 101]

40.0º lat 74.15º long
99 az = 216.0º = 0.8º error [relative to 101]
101 az = 218.8º 218.2º= -0.6º error [relative to 99/103 center]
103 az = 220.4º = 0.4º error [relative to 101]

The west coast has a much smaller error than the east coast.

I needed to visualize this numbers so these are a bit more to scale and from the LNB view:

http://www.dbstalk.c...94&d=1334556755

Though the differences is only tenths of a degree, if you centered on 99 or 103, then the other Ka might be slightly detuned.

The east coast looks to be more detuned if centered on the 101.

http://www.dbstalk.c...95&d=1334556755

Where not centering on the 101, but instead balancing between 99 & 103, would look to improve the Ka levels.

http://www.dbstalk.c...96&d=1334556755

Attached Thumbnails

  • west Ka-Ku.png
  • East Ka-Ku.png
  • East- Ka-Ku.png

A.K.A VOS

#44 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:24 AM

Let me explain the 101 in the rain comment. If I dither by the book to the 101, I will pass IV so long as it's sunny or mildly raining. If it's raining, I can usually get an extra 0.5 or so on the SNR for the 103 by dithering to 103ca tx16.

PS: attached is the relevant training section I was referencing before.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  sat.bmp   905.77KB   23 downloads


#45 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:33 AM

Let me explain the 101 in the rain comment. If I dither by the book to the 101, I will pass IV so long as it's sunny or mildly raining. If it's raining, I can usually get an extra 0.5 or so on the SNR for the 103 by dithering to 103ca tx16.

PS: attached is the relevant training section I was referencing before.

Your picture is basically showing the same thing I've been trying to point out.
Not sure if it's your location that makes 103 the harder one, but out here on the west coast, 99 is the one I need to pay attention to, as it's the lowest, so I peak it and don't have a problem with 103. Been this way since D11 became active.

It would be a shame if a lot of the discussion came from someone that had a birdog meter that should read the Ka SATs, but doesn't due to simply not updating the SAT config file from Birdog for their meter to add 99 & 103.
A.K.A VOS

#46 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:32 AM

Birddog has nothing to do with this. I do have a birddog ultra which is the only one that reads 99 and 103 but I also have a sat buddy and an AIM meter. All of which I use the 101 to point the dish. Even Horizon the people that make the Birddog say to use 101 and dither because it provides the best overall signal.

DirecTv 99 & 103 Files
"Ka DTV 99 RF NL" (No Lock) and "Ka DTV 103 RF NL" (No Lock) files have been added to the Ultra download page. These files will not lock on 99/103 but will show RF strength.

NOTE - These files are for info puposes only and are NOT to be construed as a substitute for the required dithering of every Ka/Ku dish.


By the way who is VAN?

#47 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:01 PM

By the way who is VAN?


Thats why I keep coming back to this thread. I get to watch a video in the morning, nothing wrong with a little humor. VOS please explain.

Plus I'm curious about the OP's issue.
HR20-100, HR20-700, HR24-100, HR34-700/AM21

#48 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:20 PM

VOS please explain.

An installer told me Van is who is in and makes some of the training videos.
I've never met him, so can only go by what I was told, but some of the videos leave a lot to be desired. One was making a point out of checking the AC plug wiring and having the customer get it repaired while the tech was installing the dish. Like a customer would have someone "on call" that quickly, let alone if the ground was open, since the new receivers don't have a 3 prong plug, it wouldn't matter. :nono:

Then there are things like this where it was done by engineering like this:
http://www.dbstalk.c...29&d=1273790719

But then Denver issued this bulletin:
http://www.dbstalk.c...28&d=1273790719

Which merely wastes a BSF that wasn't needed in the first.

Edited by veryoldschool, 16 April 2012 - 12:27 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#49 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:06 PM

I have an HR20-100 I've tried it both ways maybe sometimes engineers make mistakes.


Most flat panels have a three prong plug. From what I've read there is a floating chassis ground that can have 40 to 75 volts AC present for noise reduction. Connecting a properly grounded IRD gives the TV a path to ground if one isn't present. We are supposed to test for this voltage and anything over 85 volts AC would halt the install.

An installer told me

LMAO! You of all people...I was expecting an anecdote. :lol:
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#50 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:26 PM

I have an HR20-100 I've tried it both ways maybe sometimes engineers make mistakes.


Most flat panels have a three prong plug. From what I've read there is a floating chassis ground that can have 40 to 75 volts AC present for noise reduction. Connecting a properly grounded IRD gives the TV a path to ground if one isn't present. We are supposed to test for this voltage and anything over 85 volts AC would halt the install.

An installer told me

LMAO! You of all people...I was expecting an anecdote. :lol:

Maybe I should have said a "respected forum member" is was an installer told me.
Checking voltages makes perfect sense, but the video was using the Home Depot three LED tester, which doesn't.
Grounding the coax is the ground for the receivers without a 3-prong plug.

While engineers do make mistakes, in the case above, there is no electrical difference, so should you know what the difference is, "I'm all ears".

Not everything out of Denver is stupid, but "there was this one", where the tech had a DECA "reduced networking" error. He did everything he could and passed it up the line for help.
This was the rare time, where the coax from the dish to the splitter was the wrong length and there was a phase problem with the DECA signal coming back to the 8-way splitter.
Instead of cutting a few inches off the coax, which changes the phase, "Denver" had the tech add a 2-way splitter in front of the 8-way and move the PI to it. What this did was increase the signal loss to the receiver(s) but changed the line length too. The change in line length fixed the problem, but the same thing would have been done without any more loss, by shortening the coax from the dish, by only a few inches.

I guess I should also add that a BSF on the 8-way's input would also have resolved the problem, but the tech wasn't "allowed to" use one. :nono:

Edited by veryoldschool, 16 April 2012 - 01:56 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#51 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:33 PM

Some times you sound so grumpy when you post, I reckon I'll just wait for the OP's resolution.
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#52 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:06 PM

Some times you sound so grumpy when you post.

I may either sound that way or be that way at times.
I read something that doesn't have any merit, explain why, wait to get a response that might have merit, and so I might gain knowledge, but instead there's nothing.
The dithering of the Ka did trigger me to look at it closer, and there are some variations that might have merit, but they're so small that they may not make any difference, "and along the way" I found a variation of half a degree of error that would support not just using 101, in some locations.

I asked about the HR20-100, because it's another one that still makes no sense. This doesn't mean I know everything, so if anyone offers an answer that can make sense, I'll learn something.
A.K.A VOS

#53 OFFLINE   netraa

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:40 PM

I may either sound that way or be that way at times.
I read something that doesn't have any merit, explain why, wait to get a response that might have merit, and so I might gain knowledge, but instead there's nothing.
The dithering of the Ka did trigger me to look at it closer, and there are some variations that might have merit, but they're so small that they may not make any difference, "and along the way" I found a variation of half a degree of error that would support not just using 101, in some locations.

I asked about the HR20-100, because it's another one that still makes no sense. This doesn't mean I know everything, so if anyone offers an answer that can make sense, I'll learn something.



From what i gather, a lot of this is *D corporate making 'blanket' decisions along the lines of....

Devise a method that we will make 'the' method that even the greenest, most basically equipped tech can get the job done the closest to right that can be done.

are there 'better' ways of doing things with more advanced tools, of course. They issue techs a simple cable toner, but one with the 8 different caps and the readout on the body does the same job, just faster, more accurately and easier.

they also have to take into account that not every tech out there has an aim meter and can even read the KA birds.

The real problem becomes when someone takes the most basic, low level method that is 'the approved' way to do something, and makes it 'the only way' to do something and completely ignores better, faster, and more accurate ways of getting the exact same end result.

it's what happens when someone is process driven, not results driven.

#54 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:46 PM

I sure do learn a lot when VOS is around. I'm still trying to figure DirecTV's point of view v. VOS's on this subject. Am I right that in VOS's third drawing he split the difference between the ka sats, and did not just center on one? Let's say that one sat had to be chosen for dithering nationwide and that it had to be done using the current dithering process without splitting the difference. Overall, which one would win out?

#55 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:30 PM

From what i gather, a lot of this is *D corporate making 'blanket' decisions along the lines of....

Devise a method that we will make 'the' method that even the greenest, most basically equipped tech can get the job done the closest to right that can be done.

are there 'better' ways of doing things with more advanced tools, of course. They issue techs a simple cable toner, but one with the 8 different caps and the readout on the body does the same job, just faster, more accurately and easier.

they also have to take into account that not every tech out there has an aim meter and can even read the KA birds.

The real problem becomes when someone takes the most basic, low level method that is 'the approved' way to do something, and makes it 'the only way' to do something and completely ignores better, faster, and more accurate ways of getting the exact same end result.

it's what happens when someone is process driven, not results driven.

You have a very good "take" in this.
Being old school [DUH :lol:] "why" you do something was as important as to how you do something. DirecTV fails to ever offer why.
A.K.A VOS

#56 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:39 PM

I sure do learn a lot when VOS is around. I'm still trying to figure DirecTV's point of view v. VOS's on this subject. Am I right that in VOS's third drawing he split the difference between the ka sats, and did not just center on one? Let's say that one sat had to be chosen for dithering nationwide and that it had to be done using the current dithering process without splitting the difference. Overall, which one would win out?

If you're on the west coast, it really doesn't matter, as the az shows they're so close that centering on 101 works. Now I do have problems with 99 that makes me work with it for improvement, which "might be" due to it being the farthest away, so power levels and aiming could be why.

Now from what I saw for the east coast location, centering off 101, is half a degree "farther off" center for both KA SATs, which I [poorly] tried to show.
Since 103 would be the farthest SAT, "maybe" dithering off of it will do what 99 does for me out here.
For someone on the east coast, I would look at the 99 levels before dithering the 103 and then after. If they don't change to any degree [like what I see out here], "then" dithering 103 would be better than dithering 101.
If the 99 do drop after dithering the 103, "then" you'd need to find the "sweet spot" between 103 & 99, which would end up with 101 off by half a degree, but it doesn't care with its beam width.

since all of this depends on your location, as we're dealing with three dimensional geometry, I looked at:

40.0º lat, 101.0º long

101 az [duh] is 180.0º
99 az is 177.2º, which is 0.8º off center from the 2º spacing of the 101.
103 az is 182.8º, which is also 0.8º off center from the 2º spacing of the 101.

Centering on 101 would have both 99 & 103 slightly farther away [equally] from the center of the LNB.

Edited by veryoldschool, 16 April 2012 - 06:16 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#57 OFFLINE   ds2992

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:07 PM

Ive had 2 bad hr24 new out of box. neither would read a signal. they were bad so i replaced them.

#58 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:13 AM

I'm sorry to keep bringing this up, but I like to fully understand things and not just take things at face value. It's been eating at me why DirecTV would take a stance on something that is so gray. Normally they would just be silent on a subject. Most of the false things a technician thinks come from rumors or assumptions and not from actual training documents. I've been looking at dishpointer to understand VOS's numbers.

My method was this:
  • Get the true azimuth values from dishpointer for 99.2, 100.8, and 102.8. I used 100.8 because the AIM uses transponders 1 or 25, and the Birdog 3 or 25 for peaking the ODU. The transponder map states these are on D8, which dishpointer puts at 100.8. If a tech dithers the ODU to the 101, it will be centered on 100.8.
  • Find how much further the 99.2 azimuth value is from 100.8 than the expected 1.6(100.8-99.2)
  • Find how much further the 102.8 is from 100.8 than the expected 2.0(102.8-100.8)

Some of my findings are (All errors are away from 100.8):
Lat 40.0, Long -123.8
99.2   AZ 144.6 ERROR 0.4
100.8  AZ 146.6
102.8  AZ 149.1 ERROR 0.5 
================================================
Lat 40.0, Long -74.15
99.2 AZ 216.0 ERROR 0.4
100.8 AZ 218.0
102.8 AZ 220.4 ERROR 0.4
================================================
Lat 40.0, Long -93.0
99.2   AZ 189.6 ERROR 0.9
100.8  AZ 192.1
102.8  AZ 195.0 ERROR 0.9
================================================
Lat 43.0, Long -103.0
99.2  AZ 174.5 ERROR 0.7
100.8 AZ 176.8
102.8 AZ 179.7 ERROR 0.9
================================================
Lat 39.0, Long -106.0
99.2 AZ 169.3 ERROR 0.9
100.8 AZ 171.8
102.8 AZ 174.9 ERROR 1.1
================================================
ZIP 55005
99.2 AZ 188.4 ERROR 0.6
100.8 AZ 190.6
102.8 AZ 193.3 ERROR 0.7
================================================

I also noticed that the errors changed +/- 0.1 address to address within a zipcode(rounding errors?).

Is my method correct? If it is, how is dithering the 101 not providing the best peak? I couldn't find any locations that had more than a 0.2 difference between the errors, and going to a different location down the street would normally remove the difference.

#59 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:58 AM

I'm sorry to keep bringing this up, but I like to fully understand things and not just take things at face value. It's been eating at me why DirecTV would take a stance on something that is so gray. Normally they would just be silent on a subject. Most of the false things a technician thinks come from rumors or assumptions and not from actual training documents. I've been looking at dishpointer to understand VOS's numbers.

My method was this:

  • Get the true azimuth values from dishpointer for 99.2, 100.8, and 102.8. I used 100.8 because the AIM uses transponders 1 or 25, and the Birdog 3 or 25 for peaking the ODU. The transponder map states these are on D8, which dishpointer puts at 100.8. If a tech dithers the ODU to the 101, it will be centered on 100.8.
  • Find how much further the 99.2 azimuth value is from 100.8 than the expected 1.6(100.8-99.2)
  • Find how much further the 102.8 is from 100.8 than the expected 2.0(102.8-100.8)

Some of my findings are (All errors are away from 100.8):
Lat 40.0, Long -123.8
99.2   AZ 144.6 ERROR 0.4
100.8  AZ 146.6
102.8  AZ 149.1 ERROR 0.5 
================================================
Lat 40.0, Long -74.15
99.2 AZ 216.0 ERROR 0.4
100.8 AZ 218.0
102.8 AZ 220.4 ERROR 0.4
================================================
Lat 40.0, Long -93.0
99.2   AZ 189.6 ERROR 0.9
100.8  AZ 192.1
102.8  AZ 195.0 ERROR 0.9
================================================
Lat 43.0, Long -103.0
99.2  AZ 174.5 ERROR 0.7
100.8 AZ 176.8
102.8 AZ 179.7 ERROR 0.9
================================================
Lat 39.0, Long -106.0
99.2 AZ 169.3 ERROR 0.9
100.8 AZ 171.8
102.8 AZ 174.9 ERROR 1.1
================================================
ZIP 55005
99.2 AZ 188.4 ERROR 0.6
100.8 AZ 190.6
102.8 AZ 193.3 ERROR 0.7
================================================
I also noticed that the errors changed +/- 0.1 address to address within a zipcode(rounding errors?).

Is my method correct? If it is, how is dithering the 101 not providing the best peak? I couldn't find any locations that had more than a 0.2 difference between the errors, and going to a different location down the street would normally remove the difference.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.
The errors here are so small as to be irrelevant "IMO".
The dish & LNB is designed to work all across the country, so it has tolerances that are greater than these minor errors.
My experience with many dishes, LNBs, and two locations, has been I need to fine tune [dither] the 99 because its levels are the lowest. Doing this doesn't lower my 101 & 103 levels.
This may be because 99 is the farthest away from me.
If I were on the east coast, it might be 103 instead.
If I was in the middle of the country, neither might be the problem.

Dish alignment is to maximize the levels on all the SATs, and 99 & 103 need to be measured as they're the ones that will be the first to suffer rainfade.
I bias my alignment for the weakest SAT to get the best levels, so all the levels are as high as they can be.
Not measuring the Ka SATs doesn't let you know that you've optimized all of them.
A.K.A VOS

#60 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:46 AM

Dithering to the 101 centers the 101, and the 99 & 103 are off center of the beam by about the same amount.
Dithering to a Ka sat centers one and moves the other Ka sat slightly more off center.
Dithering to a Ka sat may be beneficial to locations where one beam is stronger than the other.

Is that correct?




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