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62 replies to this topic

#51 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:33 PM

Some times you sound so grumpy when you post, I reckon I'll just wait for the OP's resolution.
HR20-100, HR20-700, HR24-100, HR34-700/AM21

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#52 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:06 PM

Some times you sound so grumpy when you post.

I may either sound that way or be that way at times.
I read something that doesn't have any merit, explain why, wait to get a response that might have merit, and so I might gain knowledge, but instead there's nothing.
The dithering of the Ka did trigger me to look at it closer, and there are some variations that might have merit, but they're so small that they may not make any difference, "and along the way" I found a variation of half a degree of error that would support not just using 101, in some locations.

I asked about the HR20-100, because it's another one that still makes no sense. This doesn't mean I know everything, so if anyone offers an answer that can make sense, I'll learn something.
A.K.A VOS

#53 OFFLINE   netraa

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:40 PM

I may either sound that way or be that way at times.
I read something that doesn't have any merit, explain why, wait to get a response that might have merit, and so I might gain knowledge, but instead there's nothing.
The dithering of the Ka did trigger me to look at it closer, and there are some variations that might have merit, but they're so small that they may not make any difference, "and along the way" I found a variation of half a degree of error that would support not just using 101, in some locations.

I asked about the HR20-100, because it's another one that still makes no sense. This doesn't mean I know everything, so if anyone offers an answer that can make sense, I'll learn something.



From what i gather, a lot of this is *D corporate making 'blanket' decisions along the lines of....

Devise a method that we will make 'the' method that even the greenest, most basically equipped tech can get the job done the closest to right that can be done.

are there 'better' ways of doing things with more advanced tools, of course. They issue techs a simple cable toner, but one with the 8 different caps and the readout on the body does the same job, just faster, more accurately and easier.

they also have to take into account that not every tech out there has an aim meter and can even read the KA birds.

The real problem becomes when someone takes the most basic, low level method that is 'the approved' way to do something, and makes it 'the only way' to do something and completely ignores better, faster, and more accurate ways of getting the exact same end result.

it's what happens when someone is process driven, not results driven.

#54 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:46 PM

I sure do learn a lot when VOS is around. I'm still trying to figure DirecTV's point of view v. VOS's on this subject. Am I right that in VOS's third drawing he split the difference between the ka sats, and did not just center on one? Let's say that one sat had to be chosen for dithering nationwide and that it had to be done using the current dithering process without splitting the difference. Overall, which one would win out?

#55 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:30 PM

From what i gather, a lot of this is *D corporate making 'blanket' decisions along the lines of....

Devise a method that we will make 'the' method that even the greenest, most basically equipped tech can get the job done the closest to right that can be done.

are there 'better' ways of doing things with more advanced tools, of course. They issue techs a simple cable toner, but one with the 8 different caps and the readout on the body does the same job, just faster, more accurately and easier.

they also have to take into account that not every tech out there has an aim meter and can even read the KA birds.

The real problem becomes when someone takes the most basic, low level method that is 'the approved' way to do something, and makes it 'the only way' to do something and completely ignores better, faster, and more accurate ways of getting the exact same end result.

it's what happens when someone is process driven, not results driven.

You have a very good "take" in this.
Being old school [DUH :lol:] "why" you do something was as important as to how you do something. DirecTV fails to ever offer why.
A.K.A VOS

#56 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:39 PM

I sure do learn a lot when VOS is around. I'm still trying to figure DirecTV's point of view v. VOS's on this subject. Am I right that in VOS's third drawing he split the difference between the ka sats, and did not just center on one? Let's say that one sat had to be chosen for dithering nationwide and that it had to be done using the current dithering process without splitting the difference. Overall, which one would win out?

If you're on the west coast, it really doesn't matter, as the az shows they're so close that centering on 101 works. Now I do have problems with 99 that makes me work with it for improvement, which "might be" due to it being the farthest away, so power levels and aiming could be why.

Now from what I saw for the east coast location, centering off 101, is half a degree "farther off" center for both KA SATs, which I [poorly] tried to show.
Since 103 would be the farthest SAT, "maybe" dithering off of it will do what 99 does for me out here.
For someone on the east coast, I would look at the 99 levels before dithering the 103 and then after. If they don't change to any degree [like what I see out here], "then" dithering 103 would be better than dithering 101.
If the 99 do drop after dithering the 103, "then" you'd need to find the "sweet spot" between 103 & 99, which would end up with 101 off by half a degree, but it doesn't care with its beam width.

since all of this depends on your location, as we're dealing with three dimensional geometry, I looked at:

40.0º lat, 101.0º long

101 az [duh] is 180.0º
99 az is 177.2º, which is 0.8º off center from the 2º spacing of the 101.
103 az is 182.8º, which is also 0.8º off center from the 2º spacing of the 101.

Centering on 101 would have both 99 & 103 slightly farther away [equally] from the center of the LNB.

Edited by veryoldschool, 16 April 2012 - 06:16 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#57 OFFLINE   ds2992

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:07 PM

Ive had 2 bad hr24 new out of box. neither would read a signal. they were bad so i replaced them.

#58 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:13 AM

I'm sorry to keep bringing this up, but I like to fully understand things and not just take things at face value. It's been eating at me why DirecTV would take a stance on something that is so gray. Normally they would just be silent on a subject. Most of the false things a technician thinks come from rumors or assumptions and not from actual training documents. I've been looking at dishpointer to understand VOS's numbers.

My method was this:
  • Get the true azimuth values from dishpointer for 99.2, 100.8, and 102.8. I used 100.8 because the AIM uses transponders 1 or 25, and the Birdog 3 or 25 for peaking the ODU. The transponder map states these are on D8, which dishpointer puts at 100.8. If a tech dithers the ODU to the 101, it will be centered on 100.8.
  • Find how much further the 99.2 azimuth value is from 100.8 than the expected 1.6(100.8-99.2)
  • Find how much further the 102.8 is from 100.8 than the expected 2.0(102.8-100.8)

Some of my findings are (All errors are away from 100.8):
Lat 40.0, Long -123.8
99.2   AZ 144.6 ERROR 0.4
100.8  AZ 146.6
102.8  AZ 149.1 ERROR 0.5 
================================================
Lat 40.0, Long -74.15
99.2 AZ 216.0 ERROR 0.4
100.8 AZ 218.0
102.8 AZ 220.4 ERROR 0.4
================================================
Lat 40.0, Long -93.0
99.2   AZ 189.6 ERROR 0.9
100.8  AZ 192.1
102.8  AZ 195.0 ERROR 0.9
================================================
Lat 43.0, Long -103.0
99.2  AZ 174.5 ERROR 0.7
100.8 AZ 176.8
102.8 AZ 179.7 ERROR 0.9
================================================
Lat 39.0, Long -106.0
99.2 AZ 169.3 ERROR 0.9
100.8 AZ 171.8
102.8 AZ 174.9 ERROR 1.1
================================================
ZIP 55005
99.2 AZ 188.4 ERROR 0.6
100.8 AZ 190.6
102.8 AZ 193.3 ERROR 0.7
================================================

I also noticed that the errors changed +/- 0.1 address to address within a zipcode(rounding errors?).

Is my method correct? If it is, how is dithering the 101 not providing the best peak? I couldn't find any locations that had more than a 0.2 difference between the errors, and going to a different location down the street would normally remove the difference.

#59 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:58 AM

I'm sorry to keep bringing this up, but I like to fully understand things and not just take things at face value. It's been eating at me why DirecTV would take a stance on something that is so gray. Normally they would just be silent on a subject. Most of the false things a technician thinks come from rumors or assumptions and not from actual training documents. I've been looking at dishpointer to understand VOS's numbers.

My method was this:

  • Get the true azimuth values from dishpointer for 99.2, 100.8, and 102.8. I used 100.8 because the AIM uses transponders 1 or 25, and the Birdog 3 or 25 for peaking the ODU. The transponder map states these are on D8, which dishpointer puts at 100.8. If a tech dithers the ODU to the 101, it will be centered on 100.8.
  • Find how much further the 99.2 azimuth value is from 100.8 than the expected 1.6(100.8-99.2)
  • Find how much further the 102.8 is from 100.8 than the expected 2.0(102.8-100.8)

Some of my findings are (All errors are away from 100.8):
Lat 40.0, Long -123.8
99.2   AZ 144.6 ERROR 0.4
100.8  AZ 146.6
102.8  AZ 149.1 ERROR 0.5 
================================================
Lat 40.0, Long -74.15
99.2 AZ 216.0 ERROR 0.4
100.8 AZ 218.0
102.8 AZ 220.4 ERROR 0.4
================================================
Lat 40.0, Long -93.0
99.2   AZ 189.6 ERROR 0.9
100.8  AZ 192.1
102.8  AZ 195.0 ERROR 0.9
================================================
Lat 43.0, Long -103.0
99.2  AZ 174.5 ERROR 0.7
100.8 AZ 176.8
102.8 AZ 179.7 ERROR 0.9
================================================
Lat 39.0, Long -106.0
99.2 AZ 169.3 ERROR 0.9
100.8 AZ 171.8
102.8 AZ 174.9 ERROR 1.1
================================================
ZIP 55005
99.2 AZ 188.4 ERROR 0.6
100.8 AZ 190.6
102.8 AZ 193.3 ERROR 0.7
================================================
I also noticed that the errors changed +/- 0.1 address to address within a zipcode(rounding errors?).

Is my method correct? If it is, how is dithering the 101 not providing the best peak? I couldn't find any locations that had more than a 0.2 difference between the errors, and going to a different location down the street would normally remove the difference.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.
The errors here are so small as to be irrelevant "IMO".
The dish & LNB is designed to work all across the country, so it has tolerances that are greater than these minor errors.
My experience with many dishes, LNBs, and two locations, has been I need to fine tune [dither] the 99 because its levels are the lowest. Doing this doesn't lower my 101 & 103 levels.
This may be because 99 is the farthest away from me.
If I were on the east coast, it might be 103 instead.
If I was in the middle of the country, neither might be the problem.

Dish alignment is to maximize the levels on all the SATs, and 99 & 103 need to be measured as they're the ones that will be the first to suffer rainfade.
I bias my alignment for the weakest SAT to get the best levels, so all the levels are as high as they can be.
Not measuring the Ka SATs doesn't let you know that you've optimized all of them.
A.K.A VOS

#60 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:46 AM

Dithering to the 101 centers the 101, and the 99 & 103 are off center of the beam by about the same amount.
Dithering to a Ka sat centers one and moves the other Ka sat slightly more off center.
Dithering to a Ka sat may be beneficial to locations where one beam is stronger than the other.

Is that correct?

#61 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:53 AM

Dithering to the 101 centers the 101, and the 99 & 103 are off center of the beam by about the same amount.
Dithering to a Ka sat centers one and moves the other Ka sat slightly more off center.
Dithering to a Ka sat may be beneficial to locations where one beam is stronger than the other.

Is that correct?

Other than changing stronger to weaker, that is exactly what I'm saying and have learned through this discussion.

To use some random numbers:
Say one of the Ka is 3 dB lower than the other, if you can tweak it for the 3 dB and not detune the other, you've optimized the alignment.

Edited by veryoldschool, 17 April 2012 - 11:03 AM.

A.K.A VOS

#62 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:57 PM

Hello all. I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest, as I just moved my dish and put it on a previous Primestar mast buried in cement. I purchased a bird alignment tool off of Amazon, which it pretty nice and only $25. Gives analog readout along with audio tone. I was able to use it to align easily, but in reading about dithering to a specific bird, I wasn't sure how I would know which bird I was actually aligning it to. I know I can bring up signals on my receiver, but it's too far away from my dish. I am still experiencing rainfade, when it shouldn't be, IMO. Before I moved the dish, it could be very cloudy and I would get drop off.

I have heard using the 99, the 101 and the 103. I am in the midwest, so should I aim for the 101?

Any help appreciated. Thanks!

Mike

#63 OFFLINE   dielray

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:33 PM

Hello all. I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest, as I just moved my dish and put it on a previous Primestar mast buried in cement. I purchased a bird alignment tool off of Amazon, which it pretty nice and only $25. Gives analog readout along with audio tone. I was able to use it to align easily, but in reading about dithering to a specific bird, I wasn't sure how I would know which bird I was actually aligning it to. I know I can bring up signals on my receiver, but it's too far away from my dish. I am still experiencing rainfade, when it shouldn't be, IMO. Before I moved the dish, it could be very cloudy and I would get drop off.

I have heard using the 99, the 101 and the 103. I am in the midwest, so should I aim for the 101?

Any help appreciated. Thanks!

Mike


I would think the 101 would be best to dither with in the midwest, and is likely the only one you can dither with the meter you bought. It might be worth going over the dithering steps.

1) Plumb the mast(or at least get your pipe adapter as plumb as possible). Dithering becomes less effective as the mast becomes less plumb.

2) Rough peak azimuth (left and right) and elevation (up and down).

3) Set dithering knobs to 0. Make sure the two side bolts and the two under bolts are loose.

4) Turn the elevation dithering bolt 2 whole turns counter-clockwise(you will end at 0 again). Read the value.

5) Turn the elevation dithering bolt clockwise until you reach the same number, counting the number of turns.

6) Divide the number of turns by 2, set the knob to 0, and turn the dithering bolt counter clockwise by that many turns.

7) Repeat steps 3 to 6 for azimuth.

8) Tighten the side and under bolts.

After that you should have good signal on all satellites.
DirecTV Technician
My thoughts and opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of DirecTV, my HSP, or anyone else.




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