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Dish drops AMC (+WeTV, IFC & Sundance)


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#226 ONLINE   Paul Secic

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

Agreed ... AMC wants 10-14 million DISH customers to pay 40/80 cents per household - whether or not they actually watch AMC. On the low end they walk away with $4 million per month, $48 million a year. Make the channels a la carte and they would have to sell a lot of subscriptions at a higher price just to break even.

Channels know they are better off in packages sold to people who don't want them as well as the people who will make a lot of noise if the channel wasn't there. Very few channels have decided to allow a la carte sales. Most of them are not very popular or are very expensive a la carte.


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#227 ONLINE   Paul Secic

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:47 AM

In a way, I hope AMC does get dropped and takes a major financial hit. Then in a few months, they'll come crawling back, willing to accept pennies.


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#228 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 02:21 PM

There are different levels of bundling that I think are confusing people.

Dish, for example, couldn't legally require you to sign up for their satellite-internet connection in order to get Dish TV. Similarly, AT&T can't require you to get their phone or TV service to get their internet.

These companies can provide you with bundled discounts, but by law they have to allow you to buy their individual offerings separately... otherwise Dish would be unfairly preventing you from getting AT&T internet services and AT&T would be unfairly preventing you from getting Dish satellite.

HOWEVER...

Once you sign up for Dish satellite TV... Dish doesn't have to sell you channels a la carte or any particular kind of package. Dish can structure their satellite TV service any way they want.

Similarly, Disney can choose to sell Dish each ABC, ESPN, and Disney channel separately OR bundle them into groups that require Dish to take all or none of them.

Some folks, I think, are confusing the illegal bundling issues with legally protected bundling.

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#229 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 02:28 PM

I think it's more that folks have been saying "bundling" when they should have been saying "tying". At least I was.
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#230 OFFLINE   Gloria_Chavez

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 03:34 PM

Similarly, Disney can choose to sell Dish each ABC, ESPN, and Disney channel separately OR bundle them into groups that require Dish to take all or none of them.


AMC, at 75 cents a sub, provides much more value-added than ESPN at 5 dollars.

Now, if Dish tells ESPN, we'll give you 2 dollars a sub, take it or leave it, and Disney pulls all programming, so what.

ABC: get it free on Hulu or OTA antenna.

Disney: so much substitute programming available.

I don't blame AMC for asking for 75 cents a sub. Everything is priced off ESPN, and if ESPN is worth 5+ dollars a month, AMC is certainly worth at least 75 cents.
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#231 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 03:53 PM

AMC, at 75 cents a sub, provides much more value-added than ESPN at 5 dollars.


Depends. Id pay $10 a month for the ESPN suite before Id pay a dime for AMC, since I never watch AMC. ESPN is on my tv every day.

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#232 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 04:24 PM

AMC, at 75 cents a sub, provides much more value-added than ESPN at 5 dollars.

Now, if Dish tells ESPN, we'll give you 2 dollars a sub, take it or leave it, and Disney pulls all programming, so what.


Split ESPN from ABC/Disney, pay ESPN $4, Disney $1 and AMC $1, but make ESPN optional and I'd be happy.
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#233 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:19 PM

I get the feeling nobody read my earlier post extrapolating from the current cost of AMC vs their actual number of viewers.

It's worth reminding again that based on the numbers posted earlier in this thread, less than 10% of the people paying for AMC watched their highest rated episode ever.... and the number of regular viewers from night to night falls well below even that the rest of the week, month, and year.

If every single channel in the packages got the 50 cent increase AMC appears to be looking for, we would almost all have to drop pay TV tomorrow because we couldn't afford it.

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#234 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:21 PM

AMC, at 75 cents a sub, provides much more value-added than ESPN at 5 dollars.


Not for me they don't... not by far.

Also... once again we have a different quote for the cost of ESPN.

Between this and the other thread, I have now seen $5, $6, $10, and $12 thrown around as the cost of ESPN. Does anybody actually have any real data?

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#235 OFFLINE   sregener

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:05 PM

AMC, at 75 cents a sub, provides much more value-added than ESPN at 5 dollars.


AMC runs how many hours a year of original (not previously shown anywhere) content? Yes, ESPN does rerun SportsCenter and a few other things, but 90% of the time, the programming is original. How much does it cost ESPN to cover a sporting event? Toss out fees to leagues. The transportation and setup of equipment, the need for many cameras and camera operators, the production truck, the backhaul. Play-by-play, color, on-field reporter. And they don't cover an event a few times a year - they're doing multiple events every day.

You may personally not like ESPN and their programming, but the reality is they are producing much more content, at a much higher cost, by far more than 10-1 compared to AMC. It is ESPN that is the bargain.

#236 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:14 PM

AMC runs how many hours a year of original (not previously shown anywhere) content? Yes, ESPN does rerun SportsCenter and a few other things, but 90% of the time, the programming is original. How much does it cost ESPN to cover a sporting event? Toss out fees to leagues. The transportation and setup of equipment, the need for many cameras and camera operators, the production truck, the backhaul. Play-by-play, color, on-field reporter. And they don't cover an event a few times a year - they're doing multiple events every day.

You may personally not like ESPN and their programming, but the reality is they are producing much more content, at a much higher cost, by far more than 10-1 compared to AMC. It is ESPN that is the bargain.


I read profit margins are a lot smaller for sports channels because of what you describe.
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#237 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:30 PM

I read profit margins are a lot smaller for sports channels because of what you describe.


Makes sense, and thanks for the take on that, both of you.

As a very current point of reference, ESPN is, bless their souls!, airing all 8 NCAA D1 lacrosse games this weekend, and may be producing them as well, though I don't know a good source to check as to who's doing the field work. All in HD, and all pretty well done, in 8 locations. Plus the odd softball or college baseball game, poker games (is card playing really a sport??) The they are airing a Rangers BB game, which is probably produced by others, though, again, dunno. And Sports Center, oft repeated, but not cheap to do.
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#238 OFFLINE   domingos35

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 08:15 PM

i think dish should reconsider this move .
theres going to be a lot of pissed customers and its going to make future customers rethink dish as an option
bad move dish

#239 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

i think dish should reconsider this move .
theres going to be a lot of pissed customers and its going to make future customers rethink dish as an option
bad move dish


DISH has already determined that if it's removed it's an acceptable loss of customers compared to cost of programming. If they didn't think it was they would have just made an agreement.

#240 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 10:20 PM

I don't blame AMC for asking for 75 cents a sub. Everything is priced off ESPN, and if ESPN is worth 5+ dollars a month, AMC is certainly worth at least 75 cents.

Ok, following that logic ESPN isn't worth $5 per month ... the several channels of ESPN are probably worth $5 per month (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNews, ESPN Classic, ESPN U and the alt ESPN channels for regional blackouts). Based on the bulk account pricing $5 covers all the ESPN channels.

If AMC wants 75c for AMC, WE, IFC and Fuse (and perhaps other channels) it might be a deal. But 75c for just AMC? No thank you.

So if you're willing to pay 75c for just AMC does that mean every higher rated network would get more than 75c? AMC is NOT the top rated network on cable. They didn't end up in the top 15 in prime time last year. It seems that giving AMC their "75c" would just lead to the lesser paid more popular channels demanding more ... and our bills would continue to go up.

AMC needs to stay at the 40c or less level.

#241 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:24 PM

Ok, following that logic ESPN isn't worth $5 per month ... the several channels of ESPN are probably worth $5 per month (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNews, ESPN Classic, ESPN U and the alt ESPN channels for regional blackouts). Based on the bulk account pricing $5 covers all the ESPN channels.

If AMC wants 75c for AMC, WE, IFC and Fuse (and perhaps other channels) it might be a deal. But 75c for just AMC? No thank you.

So if you're willing to pay 75c for just AMC does that mean every higher rated network would get more than 75c? AMC is NOT the top rated network on cable. They didn't end up in the top 15 in prime time last year. It seems that giving AMC their "75c" would just lead to the lesser paid more popular channels demanding more ... and our bills would continue to go up.

AMC needs to stay at the 40c or less level.

I have no idea what any of these channels are worth to viewers because we don't get a chance to buy them individually or even by ownership group.

But we do have some information from the 2009 chart and from the 2012 top 20 list which shows the following:

Posted Image


I guess I think that in a retransmission agreement for the next five years if I were AMC I'd simply have my fee set at whatever the provider is paying for ESPN2. Seems fair to me. Posted Image

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#242 OFFLINE   tampa8

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:46 AM

Lol, yep.

#243 OFFLINE   StringFellow

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:26 AM

I have no idea what any of these channels are worth to viewers because we don't get a chance to buy them individually or even by ownership group.

But we do have some information from the 2009 chart and from the 2012 top 20 list which shows the following:

Posted Image


I guess I think that in a retransmission agreement for the next five years if I were AMC I'd simply have my fee set at whatever the provider is paying for ESPN2. Seems fair to me. Posted Image


ESPN 3D $2.71??? WTF? :mad: They are arguing over subscriber fees for AMC yet they are willing to pay $2.71 for ESPN 3D?? And the 3D market isn't mainstream yet either!!

I think Dish needs to get their priorities straight!

#244 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:50 AM

ESPN 3D $2.71??? WTF? :mad: They are arguing over subscriber fees for AMC yet they are willing to pay $2.71 for ESPN 3D?? And the 3D market isn't mainstream yet either!!

I think Dish needs to get their priorities straight!


Dish doesn't have ESPN 3D.

See post My Setup for configuration info.


#245 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:41 AM

I have no idea what any of these channels are worth to viewers because we don't get a chance to buy them individually or even by ownership group.

Cost and value are not equivalent to the customer. Even with a la carte the customer is not paying the exact cost of the channel ... they are usually paying the cost plus a mark up (DISH is not a not for profit company). In some cases the charged price may not cover the actual cost of provision (such as locals) but the additional cost can be covered in the regular package prices or other required base package.

#246 ONLINE   Paul Secic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:56 AM

Good shows end ... even "the best shows" end. And it seems that the end is nearer for shows these days than it was for the best shows of the past.

Signing a long term contract with AMC for the apparently good shows they have today commits DISH to a price regardless of what AMC does in the future. Is AMC committed to continuing at least the same quality of programming as they have now? Of replacing shows as they end with shows equally or more popular?

That is where Rainbow failed with Voom. DISH paid big bucks with written assurances that Rainbow would spend a certain amount of money maintaining and improving their programming. The channels turned into video loops with little new programming. One can read the complaints about the repetitiveness of Voom. DISH heard those complaints from their customers and didn't see the return on the investment they made to keep Voom alive nor Rainbow keeping their promise to spend on program development.

So now AMC has a few good programs - and they want to leverage them to raise their rates. Can AMC promise that they will always have the same level (or better) of good programs? And what about WE and IFC? Anything special there or is AMC pulling the old "if you want our good channel you must take our other channels too" trick? Will AMC try to piggyback Fuse and other network properties?


Are AMC IFC AMC in AT 200?

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#247 OFFLINE   thomasjk

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:21 AM

Are AMC IFC AMC in AT 200?

Yes.

#248 OFFLINE   tampa8

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:41 PM

ESPN 3D $2.71??? WTF? :mad: They are arguing over subscriber fees for AMC yet they are willing to pay $2.71 for ESPN 3D?? And the 3D market isn't mainstream yet either!!

I think Dish needs to get their priorities straight!


More like getting the information correct I think. Dish does not think it is worth it, and does not carry it. So do you agree Dish does have their priorities straight? :D

#249 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:45 PM

ESPN 3D $2.71??? WTF? :mad: They are arguing over subscriber fees for AMC yet they are willing to pay $2.71 for ESPN 3D?? And the 3D market isn't mainstream yet either!!

I think Dish needs to get their priorities straight!


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#250 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:15 PM

True, MadMen and Hell On Wheels (along with Justified on FX and OnceUpon a Time and Lost Girl on SYFY) are our few "Never miss" shows.

For this reason alone I just pulled up short of pulling the trigger on DiSH (we have DTV, NO CONTRACT) - somrthing we had been planning for years.

And yes, wih Deadwood gone, Hell On Wheels IS *that* important. Mad Men just cinches it. With my fascination for politics (and I would SUE to break my contract if they pulled either msnbc, LINK, or Current;) those AMC shows and the others mentioned are the only things we can watch together.

So by allowing this cancellation of AMC, and the new nonconsentual DTV contracts hitting on the 15th, either DISH is suicidally inept or they're fools who have been one-upped by a conspiracy (IMO illegal "competition," BTW) between DTV and AMC. And that makes them fair game by others in the future, hardly arguing for dumping DTV for a 2 year contract with them.

That said, I still have questions about the rental prices of various receivers and services (like DVR) and most importantlly about the exact date of "automatic billing," and the REAL total of the first payment they demand for installation (and then, of course, when the next bill is due/charged.)



what is meant by the "new nonconsentual DTV contracts"?




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