Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

Dish drops AMC (+WeTV, IFC & Sundance)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1921 replies to this topic

#201 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 40,093 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 11 May 2012 - 03:38 AM

Good shows end ... even "the best shows" end. And it seems that the end is nearer for shows these days than it was for the best shows of the past.

Signing a long term contract with AMC for the apparently good shows they have today commits DISH to a price regardless of what AMC does in the future. Is AMC committed to continuing at least the same quality of programming as they have now? Of replacing shows as they end with shows equally or more popular?

That is where Rainbow failed with Voom. DISH paid big bucks with written assurances that Rainbow would spend a certain amount of money maintaining and improving their programming. The channels turned into video loops with little new programming. One can read the complaints about the repetitiveness of Voom. DISH heard those complaints from their customers and didn't see the return on the investment they made to keep Voom alive nor Rainbow keeping their promise to spend on program development.

So now AMC has a few good programs - and they want to leverage them to raise their rates. Can AMC promise that they will always have the same level (or better) of good programs? And what about WE and IFC? Anything special there or is AMC pulling the old "if you want our good channel you must take our other channels too" trick? Will AMC try to piggyback Fuse and other network properties?

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#202 OFFLINE   sregener

sregener

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 609 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2012

Posted 11 May 2012 - 04:33 AM

Again, highest rated show in cable history (one of the most awarded shows in cable history as well), you may not like it, but a lot of other people do.


3.5 million viewers watched the season 5 premiere of Mad Men. If you call ESPN's Monday Night Football a "show", it averaged over 13 million viewers over the entire 2011 season. Yet look at how many people are howling over having to pay for ESPN on another thread here.

Doing some back of the envelope math, about 600,000 Dish viewers watched that premiere. 2.2 million watched MNF over its entire season.

Sorry, not buying the "highest rated in cable history" argument.

#203 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

Stewart Vernon

    Excellent Adventurer

  • Moderators
  • 19,785 posts
  • LocationKittrell, NC
Joined: Jan 07, 2005

Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:34 AM

NBC is a good example too...

They were once the #1 network and had lots of the best shows on TV... random examples like the Cosby Show, Cheers, and Seinfeld are classic TV that garnered high ratings.

But now NBC is in the basement ratings-wise... Imagine how advertisers would feel if they were paying 1980s/1990s NBC ratings money to NBC today!

That's why these contracts are short and renewable... to keep the prisoner-of-the-moment stuff to a minimum.

And even if the court case leaks in (Dish is mad at Rainbow so wants to pay less for other channels, meanwhile Rainbow is mad at Dish and wants to stick it to them and charge more)... that's just how people, unfortunately, work on BOTH sides of the table.

Eventually this will all settle out. IF Dish loses the Rainbow channels, it will not result in a mass-exodus from Dish nor their ruination. Dish does have the upper hand here.

-- Respect the S.H.I.E.L.D.


#204 OFFLINE   sigma1914

sigma1914

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,082 posts
  • LocationAllen, TX
Joined: Sep 05, 2006

Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:40 AM

3.5 million viewers watched the season 5 premiere of Mad Men. If you call ESPN's Monday Night Football a "show", it averaged over 13 million viewers over the entire 2011 season. Yet look at how many people are howling over having to pay for ESPN on another thread here.

Doing some back of the envelope math, about 600,000 Dish viewers watched that premiere. 2.2 million watched MNF over its entire season.

Sorry, not buying the "highest rated in cable history" argument.


You're correct ... The Walking Dead season 2 premier was the highest rated drama on cable. http://www.hollywood...premiere-249340

The highest cable rating (I believe) was the Auburn vs Oregon BCS game on ESPN. http://www.awfulanno...-show-ever.html

...last night's Auburn win over Oregon was the highest rated show in cable TV history. The BCS title game was watched by just over 27.3 million viewers, which is about 5.5 million more viewers than the previous all-time cable high - a 2009 MNF game between Green Bay and Minnesota.


If you stop responding to them or put them on ignore, then eventually they'll go away.

#205 OFFLINE   Laxguy

Laxguy

    Fortuna! Fameux des Halles

  • Registered
  • 12,941 posts
  • LocationWinters, California
Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:04 AM

"That The Walking Dead is now the most-watched drama in the history of basic cable is staggering, just like our zombies," he added.
The series' Halloween night 2010 premiere drew 5.3 million viewers and a 2.7 rating in 18-49, the largest demo audience for any series premiere on cable last year.


From the link Sigma put in.
"Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.

#206 OFFLINE   Gloria_Chavez

Gloria_Chavez

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 442 posts
Joined: Aug 11, 2008

Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:47 PM

From adweek...

-------------------
http://www.adweek.co...drop-amc-140066

While DISH argues that AMC is overpriced—the carrier says AMC’s asking price for a new carriage deal is high “when compared to their low viewership”—the current rates are actually moderate. SNL Kagan estimates that AMC earns 26 cents per subscriber per month, for an annual haul of $298.6 million in fees. Cable’s average carriage fee is 25 cents.

If Josh Sapan has his way, AMC will triple its sub fee. in December, the president and CEO of AMC Networks told investors that “our rates on AMC are particularly out of whack,” adding that the channel is worth as much as 75 cents per subscriber per month. (He went on to add that the hypothetical fee “is not necessarily the rate we will be paid tomorrow.”)
-------------------

If ESPN is worth 5 +dollars, then AMC is certainly worth at least 75 cents.

And I'll say what I've said for over a year. The problem isn't WGN or AMC. The problem is ESPN and its enablers.

You want to rationalize carriage pricing? Then have the distributors stand up to ESPN.

When the ESPN contract is up for renewal, have them tell ESPN, we'll give you 2 dollars a sub, take it or leave it.
Since 1995 the average cable bill has increased 122%, while TV consumption per household just 13%.

http://www.multichan...1_Per_Month.php

http://blog.nielsen....-all-time-high/

#207 OFFLINE   sregener

sregener

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 609 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2012

Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:13 PM

When the ESPN contract is up for renewal, have them tell ESPN, we'll give you 2 dollars a sub, take it or leave it.


And Disney will say, goodbye, and you can't carry ABC either. Or the Disney channel. Or ABC Family. Or Lifetime.

No cable or satellite provider could afford the mass customer exodus the loss of all those channels would bring.

#208 OFFLINE   inazsully

inazsully

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 781 posts
Joined: Oct 03, 2006

Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:29 PM

And Disney will say, goodbye, and you can't carry ABC either. Or the Disney channel. Or ABC Family. Or Lifetime.

No cable or satellite provider could afford the mass customer exodus the loss of all those channels would bring.


So in other words we're being black mailed? Are we supposed to be OK with that just because we may like ESPN? Now we were OK when Dish stood up to Disney to champion our best interest. Now we're going to be OK if Dish stands up to AMC to champion our best interest. So, will Dish stand up to ESPN and champion our best interest? Not a chance. In reality the only best interest Dish is ever championing is their own pockets. Nothing wrong with that at all, just call a spade a spade.

#209 OFFLINE   Darcaine

Darcaine

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 103 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2009

Posted 11 May 2012 - 03:37 PM

3.5 million viewers watched the season 5 premiere of Mad Men. If you call ESPN's Monday Night Football a "show", it averaged over 13 million viewers over the entire 2011 season. Yet look at how many people are howling over having to pay for ESPN on another thread here.

Doing some back of the envelope math, about 600,000 Dish viewers watched that premiere. 2.2 million watched MNF over its entire season.

Sorry, not buying the "highest rated in cable history" argument.


Umm yeah, Monday Night football is a sports telecast, its not a scripted show, this seems rather obvious. That's apples to oranges.

The Walking Dead attracted more than 8 million viewers which is indeed the highest rated (scripted) show in cable history.

"New York, NY – February 13, 2012 – Last night, AMC’s mid-season premiere of “The Walking Dead” became the strongest telecast for any drama in basic cable history against key demos including 5.4 million adults 18-49 and 4.4 million adults 25-54. These results shatter the previous record, which was held by the series two premiere from October 16th with increases of +12% and +6% respectively. The show delivered 8.1 million viewers for its 9pm premiere and delivered 10.1 million viewers for the night (9pm premiere and 11pm and 12:30 am encores)."

http://tvpressfeed.c...illion-viewers/

If you wanna play the semantics game, then call it the "highest rated drama in cable history against key demographics (the ones advertisers care about) in cable history." Either way, my original point still stands.

Edited by Darcaine, 11 May 2012 - 03:56 PM.


#210 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

Stewart Vernon

    Excellent Adventurer

  • Moderators
  • 19,785 posts
  • LocationKittrell, NC
Joined: Jan 07, 2005

Posted 11 May 2012 - 04:25 PM

While DISH argues that AMC is overpriced—the carrier says AMC’s asking price for a new carriage deal is high “when compared to their low viewership”—the current rates are actually moderate. SNL Kagan estimates that AMC earns 26 cents per subscriber per month, for an annual haul of $298.6 million in fees. Cable’s average carriage fee is 25 cents.

If Josh Sapan has his way, AMC will triple its sub fee. in December, the president and CEO of AMC Networks told investors that “our rates on AMC are particularly out of whack,” adding that the channel is worth as much as 75 cents per subscriber per month. (He went on to add that the hypothetical fee “is not necessarily the rate we will be paid tomorrow.”)


So... they are looking to triple their fee? I was being conservative then in guessing they were looking to double it.

So... what happens when every channel in the package wants to triple their fee? OR what if they all just want 50 cents more per channel? How much would your bill go up if EVERY channel wanted just that "modest" increase?

If ESPN is worth 5 +dollars, then AMC is certainly worth at least 75 cents.


It is all about perspective. I watch ESPN way way more than AMC. As I've said before... I watched the Walking Dead, Talking Dead, and maybe one or two movies or mini-series over the many years I've had the channel.

Those shows were 6 and 13 episode seasons over the last two years... so I've paid for two years for that channel and only watched it in about 25 or less nights!

Counter that with ESPN... which I watch Monday-Friday for at least 1-2 hours every day... then the sports I watch + weekend sports... I watch way more ESPN.

I watch a bunch of stuff on USA too... also TNT... I don't know what those channels cost, but they are easily worth way more to me than AMC is.

And I'll say what I've said for over a year. The problem isn't WGN or AMC. The problem is ESPN and its enablers.

You want to rationalize carriage pricing? Then have the distributors stand up to ESPN.


You don't think Dish does? I'm sure Disney would love to get even more if they could... but Dish at least does push back some.

Also... why single out ESPN? Even if you think it is the most expensive non-premium channel... and even if it is the most expensive... what about all the other channels in those tiers that many of us don't watch? Why not gripe about the 10 channels at 50 cents each you don't watch as much as you gripe about the ESPN channels that cost as much?

When the ESPN contract is up for renewal, have them tell ESPN, we'll give you 2 dollars a sub, take it or leave it.


You're going the wrong way here.

Dish isn't asking AMC to take 12 cents instead of 25 cents... Dish is either asking to stay at 25 cents OR probably something slightly above that but nowhere near 75 cents.

I'm not aware of Dish going to any of these channel negotiations and saying "cut your price or we are gone"... even when Dish is being unreasonable, they at least haven't been trying to go backwards.

I would support Dish saying to Disney "no increase" next time the ESPN channels are up for negotiation... but going backwards? That makes no business sense for anybody.

The Walking Dead attracted more than 8 million viewers which is indeed the highest rated (scripted) show in cable history.


Ok... lets mash some numbers.

Gloria quoted "...estimates that AMC earns 26 cents per subscriber per month, for an annual haul of $298.6 million..."

That translates to roughly 95.7 million subscribers.

8 million viewers watched that Walking Dead episode that set the ratings record we have been throwing out there.

So... on their best night for one episode of one show... not even 10% (8.36% roughly) of the people who pay for AMC were watching it even for just that one hour. And all of those people didn't tune in the week after because the ratings didn't stay level.

Now... for AMC to make that same money for the year (and mind you the Walking Dead isn't on for even half the year) they would have to charge more than $3 per subscriber (roughly $3.12) per month.

IF they get to increase from 26 cents to 75 cents, they would be going to almost $1 billion dollars per year! All based upon one show, that most of their subscribers didn't watch... and it was their highest rated show ever.

So, ask me again how they deserve to triple their rates based on being "hot" right now?

-- Respect the S.H.I.E.L.D.


#211 OFFLINE   Laxguy

Laxguy

    Fortuna! Fameux des Halles

  • Registered
  • 12,941 posts
  • LocationWinters, California
Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Posted 11 May 2012 - 04:31 PM

And Disney will say, goodbye, and you can't carry ABC either. Or the Disney channel. Or ABC Family. Or Lifetime.

No cable or satellite provider could afford the mass customer exodus the loss of all those channels would bring.


There are laws against bundling, but not sure they've ever been enforced in this field, nor who would do the enforcing. Justice? FCC? Either?
"Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.

#212 OFFLINE   sregener

sregener

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 609 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2012

Posted 11 May 2012 - 05:26 PM

There are laws against bundling, but not sure they've ever been enforced in this field, nor who would do the enforcing. Justice? FCC? Either?


The laws on bundling do not apply because the products being bundled are of the same type. And the only monopoly Disney has is on copyright, which the government created and enforced. Regardless, case law is very murky on bundling.

#213 OFFLINE   Laxguy

Laxguy

    Fortuna! Fameux des Halles

  • Registered
  • 12,941 posts
  • LocationWinters, California
Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Posted 11 May 2012 - 06:32 PM

The laws on bundling do not apply because the products being bundled are of the same type.


What is the source or cite for this assertion, please?
"Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.

#214 OFFLINE   RHytonen

RHytonen

    New Member

  • Registered
  • 1 posts
Joined: May 11, 2012

Posted 11 May 2012 - 06:35 PM

The Walking Dead, The Killing, Mad Men, Hell on Wheels, Breaking Bad...some of the best tv on tv right now....


True, MadMen and Hell On Wheels (along with Justified on FX and OnceUpon a Time and Lost Girl on SYFY) are our few "Never miss" shows.

For this reason alone I just pulled up short of pulling the trigger on DiSH (we have DTV, NO CONTRACT) - somrthing we had been planning for years.

And yes, wih Deadwood gone, Hell On Wheels IS *that* important. Mad Men just cinches it. With my fascination for politics (and I would SUE to break my contract if they pulled either msnbc, LINK, or Current;) those AMC shows and the others mentioned are the only things we can watch together.

So by allowing this cancellation of AMC, and the new nonconsentual DTV contracts hitting on the 15th, either DISH is suicidally inept or they're fools who have been one-upped by a conspiracy (IMO illegal "competition," BTW) between DTV and AMC. And that makes them fair game by others in the future, hardly arguing for dumping DTV for a 2 year contract with them.

That said, I still have questions about the rental prices of various receivers and services (like DVR) and most importantlly about the exact date of "automatic billing," and the REAL total of the first payment they demand for installation (and then, of course, when the next bill is due/charged.)

#215 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

Stewart Vernon

    Excellent Adventurer

  • Moderators
  • 19,785 posts
  • LocationKittrell, NC
Joined: Jan 07, 2005

Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:45 PM

What is the source or cite for this assertion, please?


You weren't talking to me... but here's one:

http://www.deadline....rs-court-rules/

I recommend you read the comments as well... there is a very good comment from someone making an analogy with computers that I honestly never thought of.

The gist of the comparison is... What if I want to buy a computer to only do simple word processing? I don't need lots of RAM or hard drive space or even a fancy graphics card. But... Apple won't sell me such a barebones computer, they will only sell me a computer way more powerful than I need. Further, no computer manufacturer will sell me a model that meets my specific barebones needs... so, can I sue them and say they are unfairly bundling things in my purchase that I do not want? The answer is no.

-- Respect the S.H.I.E.L.D.


#216 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

jdskycaster

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 272 posts
Joined: Sep 01, 2008

Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:06 PM

^Not a good analogy at all. Like saying the maximum speed limit in my state is 65mph so why do I have to pay the automakers for cars and trucks that go over 100mph? They are charging me for HP that I do not need.

#217 OFFLINE   Rduce

Rduce

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 318 posts
Joined: May 15, 2008

Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:27 PM

Ok so it took them a few years to get their ducks in a row and be able to start producing original programming. My point was that they may have alienated a few viewers such as yourself, but they've made a whole lot of viewers happy, and have found new success that they never had before.

Them not being on the same level as HBO and Showtime is your opinion. Again, highest rated show in cable history (one of the most awarded shows in cable history as well), you may not like it, but a lot of other people do. Besides, I don't really see what that has to do with anything since they aren't a pay channel, they are on the same playing field as TBS, TNT, Syfy etc. Critically, and prestige wise, they have all those channels beat hands down.

At any rate, I would take 12 hours of TWD a year over a lifetime of commercial free catalog films, most of which are likely available in other places. Everything else AMC offers is gravy. I'm sure I'm not alone (infact I know I'm not).


Your argument is subjective to your personal taste and uses very inaccurate information.

First, the ratings are modest at best for Mad Men; generally, they are in the middle of the pack. In fact, last Sunday’s rating placed them well below many of those channels you indicated are nowhere near their level and essentially tied with Mythbusters on Discovery.

Secondly, while it is true that it is the first basic cable program to have won an Emmy award and is a hit with the critics it has never been the most watched cable program in history. It was once the highest rated show on AMC, but lost that title to The Walking Dead. American Pickers has a larger viewing audience by about 6 million viewers!

The reason is very simply in that AMC is not really in that many American homes. If you were to believe AMC’s claims to their advertisers, they reach 77 million American households. Then compare that to TNT's 100 million and you can see why and how it has been the #1 ranked cable channel for the past 3 years. The actual most ever-watched scripted cable program is in fact a TNT program from almost 2 years ago called Rizzoli and Isles with 8.4 million viewers. Therefore, as you can easily see Dish’s assertion is correct that not that many people watch this channel. Clearly, however, those that do are passionate about the programming offered.

Never allow your passion to weaken your contention; it only makes you look silly when you use incorrect information as a basis for your assertions.

#218 OFFLINE   Laxguy

Laxguy

    Fortuna! Fameux des Halles

  • Registered
  • 12,941 posts
  • LocationWinters, California
Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Posted 11 May 2012 - 11:18 PM

You weren't talking to me... but here's one:
I recommend you read the comments as well... there is a very good comment from someone making an analogy with computers that I honestly never thought of.<< Snipped bits out >>


Interesting. I was addressing only the unique content provider-> wholesaler (distributor), which has a different set of attributes from retail distribution or computer sales (which analogy I don't find fitting for either).
"Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.

#219 OFFLINE   mike1977

mike1977

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 211 posts
Joined: Aug 25, 2005

Posted 11 May 2012 - 11:32 PM

If they drop AMC, I guess I'm going to have to get my TWD fix by buying them from itunes.

#220 OFFLINE   sregener

sregener

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 609 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2012

Posted 12 May 2012 - 03:41 AM

What is the source or cite for this assertion, please?


http://www.pepperlaw...?ArticleKey=997




Protected By... spam firewall...And...