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Dish drops AMC (+WeTV, IFC & Sundance)


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#1621 OFFLINE   strikes2k

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:56 AM

At this point AMC has no incentive to be loyal and not push people to providers who are subscribing to AMC programming. Even companies that are at the negotiating table have pushed customers to leave to get their side more money. Why should a company no longer negotiating even care? These disputes are proving that content providers really don't care about their audience as they feel that they can muscle them to go to other providers that do carry them.


No one is asking AMC to be "loyal". But being purposely disloyal is not good business. There are going to be a small percentage of DISH customers who are bothered enough to leave DISH. If those were the ones AMC was really going after they could have just allowed DISH to offer AMC a la carte. They might even have made more money off those people compared to them leaving DISH for another provider since those customers are clearly willing to pay a premium for the channel. However, what AMC wants is ALL of DISH's customers paying a fee for AMC. That's why they want to be included in a package. So, they're really only hurting themself by actively encouraging people to leave DISH.

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#1622 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:48 PM

No one is asking AMC to be "loyal". But being purposely disloyal is not good business. There are going to be a small percentage of DISH customers who are bothered enough to leave DISH. If those were the ones AMC was really going after they could have just allowed DISH to offer AMC a la carte. They might even have made more money off those people compared to them leaving DISH for another provider since those customers are clearly willing to pay a premium for the channel. However, what AMC wants is ALL of DISH's customers paying a fee for AMC. That's why they want to be included in a package. So, they're really only hurting themself by actively encouraging people to leave DISH.


Exactly! Nail on head.

Nobody owes anybody anything... but smart business means don't burn your bridges. AMC is trying to burn the bridge and ensure they never get carried on Dish again. That makes no sense. As time goes on, there is less and less need for Dish to worry about AMC.

The more AMC pushes people to another provider, the more they are cutting their nose to spite their face... because there will only be a small amount of churn related to AMC from Dish... and once that is done (probably already is), Dish has no motivation to negotiate with AMC because all the customers who would be pestering Dish to demand it will have gone elsewhere.

IF you're AMC, you should be trying to negotiate with Dish in private and not be so public... and certainly not try and push Dish customers elsewhere to try and get Dish to the table. Dish already proved they aren't playing that game.

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#1623 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 01:28 PM

to try and get Dish to the table. Dish already proved they aren't playing that game.


Dish ain't comin' to the table.

AMC would have to go hat-in-hand and basically plead with Dish offering rates below what they were previously getting.
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#1624 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 01:29 PM

IF you're AMC, you should be trying to negotiate with Dish in private and not be so public... and certainly not try and push Dish customers elsewhere to try and get Dish to the table. Dish already proved they aren't playing that game.


While I disagree with you when you talk about AMC being the only one taking shots, I do agree with you here. If I was running AMC my comments would be more related to negotiations; e.g. "we are trying to find a resolution" or "we would love to remain on Dish but we cannot get them to even enter negotiations with us" etc.

Again, I believe this one is different from other showdowns of this type: I believe the two billionaire owners have made this one personal.

#1625 OFFLINE   maartena

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 01:36 PM

Dish ain't comin' to the table.

AMC would have to go hat-in-hand and basically plead with Dish offering rates below what they were previously getting.


I believe this to be true.

I have a feeling that AMC has made ONE offer to AMC, which basically was: We will continue coverage of your networks at the current price, take it or leave it.

I don't believe any other negotiation ever took place. And if AMC wants to be back on Dish now.... they are probably going to have to approach Dish with a much lower number.

That said, the relationship between AMC and Dish has been sour. Although the there is no direct relationship to the Voom case, I do believe that if you don't have a good relationship with another company for 1 reason, other deals are certainly going to be affected.
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#1626 OFFLINE   maartena

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:55 AM

http://adage.com/art...tm_medium=email

"Dish Chairman Says Subscribers Don't Like AMC Shows That Much, Anyway"

Dish continues to attack AMC Networks in the media..... I don't think AMC is coming back any time soon.
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#1627 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:07 PM

He also made this statement which might make some Dish subs upset:

"But Dish customers aren't thinking about zombies stunts in New York City, Mr. Ergen said during the call. "They live in farms and ranches," he said. "They have no clue about zombies and New York."


Maybe that's why Dish doesn't carry the NYC RSN channels ;)

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#1628 OFFLINE   DoyleS

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

Dish has made their position pretty clear. They do not want Sundance, IFC and WE. They only want AMC. AMC is not Viacom negotiating with 17 channels and having a lot more than one of them that is popular. I don't watch the Viacom channels but I can easily see how a family with Children would want those channels. Hell on Wheels starts in 2 days and I would love to watch it but my DVR is full with shows recorded and not watched during the Olympics and unlike olympics, I don't really have to worry about Spoilers with HoW. Who knows, I may be happy waiting to watch it next year on DVD.
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#1629 OFFLINE   DoyleS

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:24 PM

The News Story that just won't go away. Here is another one on AMC's expected revenue drop. The article states that HDNET movies is part of AMCs programming. I did not realize that if in fact it is true.
http://in.reuters.co...tm_medium=email
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#1630 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:51 PM

http://adage.com/art...tm_medium=email

"Dish Chairman Says Subscribers Don't Like AMC Shows That Much, Anyway"

Dish continues to attack AMC Networks in the media..... I don't think AMC is coming back any time soon.


Two things wrong with that statement:

1. Ergen made those statements on an Investor conference call... not to the media directly. That someone wrote a media article about an earnings call is not the same as Ergen or Dish going to the media to bash AMC.

2. Nothing I read there was an attack on AMC at all. Very clearly, to me, Ergen reiterated Dish's consistent stance that he believes Dish customers that watch AMC is a small number, and that while AMC does have some heralded programming AMC doesn't want to just negotiate for AMC without forced carriage of the other channels that even AMC acknowledges aren't as in demand. That's not an attack, it's just stating facts as Ergen knows them.

The News Story that just won't go away. Here is another one on AMC's expected revenue drop. The article states that HDNET movies is part of AMCs programming. I did not realize that if in fact it is true.
http://in.reuters.co...tm_medium=email


HDNet movies is not part of AMC... I don't think Style is either, but I could be wrong about that. Whomever wrote that article didn't do their fact checking.

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#1631 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:00 PM

I went looking into that and it doesn't even look like HDNet Movies exists any more, having been morphed into AXS.

While the domain name and graphics still use it, the About Me page text doesn't:

http://www.hdnetmovi...t-hdnet-movies/
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#1632 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:19 PM

Two things wrong with that statement:

1. Ergen made those statements on an Investor conference call... not to the media directly. That someone wrote a media article about an earnings call is not the same as Ergen or Dish going to the media to bash AMC.

2. Nothing I read there was an attack on AMC at all. Very clearly, to me, Ergen reiterated Dish's consistent stance that he believes Dish customers that watch AMC is a small number, and that while AMC does have some heralded programming AMC doesn't want to just negotiate for AMC without forced carriage of the other channels that even AMC acknowledges aren't as in demand. That's not an attack, it's just stating facts as Ergen knows them.

HDNet movies is not part of AMC... I don't think Style is either, but I could be wrong about that. Whomever wrote that article didn't do their fact checking.


Maybe they meant that hdnet movies has the rights to air many movies that amc also has the rights to air? Very incorrectly worded if that's what they meant, but could that be the point?

#1633 OFFLINE   dakeeney

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:22 PM

I still believe there will be a carriage agreement by the end of Sept. at the latest.

#1634 OFFLINE   RVRambler

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:19 PM

You mean you 'hope' there will be a carriage agreement.

I 'believe' when I 'see' it when it comes to Charlie vs another Billionaire Pi$$ing contest !! Charlie is used to getting his way, the ultra rich are many times that way, 'yes your highness, whatever you want your highness', blah, blah, blah.

We all 'hope' but no $$ on that one!
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#1635 OFFLINE   DoyleS

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:21 PM

I'd like to think that is right but only time will tell. Meanwhile the thread goes on.
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#1636 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:26 PM

I went looking into that and it doesn't even look like HDNet Movies exists any more, having been morphed into AXS.

While the domain name and graphics still use it, the About Me page text doesn't:

http://www.hdnetmovi...t-hdnet-movies/


There is a glitch in that Web site...

HDNet Movies very much exists.

HDNet became AXS TV...

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#1637 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:27 PM

Maybe they meant that hdnet movies has the rights to air many movies that amc also has the rights to air? Very incorrectly worded if that's what they meant, but could that be the point?


That's about the only stretch of logic that might make sense... if the idea was meant to be that AMC airs similar movies to HDNet Movies... except of course HDNet Movies airs them uncensored and commercial free... so that's not a real comparison to me.

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#1638 OFFLINE   DoyleS

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:24 PM

Got home tonite and there was a card in the mail from Dish about Hell on Wheels which starts This Sunday. It said to call for special offers. I called and told them I have apple tv and he said to order HoW from iTunes and call Dish back and they would credit me for the amount I paid. Not bad I'm my opinion.
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#1639 OFFLINE   Inkosaurus

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:14 PM

You mean you 'hope' there will be a carriage agreement.

I 'believe' when I 'see' it when it comes to Charlie vs another Billionaire Pi$$ing contest !! Charlie is used to getting his way, the ultra rich are many times that way, 'yes your highness, whatever you want your highness', blah, blah, blah.

We all 'hope' but no $$ on that one!


I met ergen when he visited the call center I worked at. He was nothing like. He's more of a frugal old coot then anything else he still drives a real old banged up car lool.

#1640 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:29 PM

He also made this statement which might make some Dish subs upset:

Maybe that's why Dish doesn't carry the NYC RSN channels ;)


It only makes Dish customers upset because it is out of context... I've seen several news outlets quoting snippets from Charlie out of the conference call... but I finally found a transcript of the call which reads entirely different in context!

All quotes below are from Charlie in the conference call and sheds light on several things we have discussed in addition to clarifying the farmers vs zombies quote...

"So then you look at AMC and you look at the fact that -- the critically acclaimed series are critically acclaimed, and I don't want to take anything away from them. But our -- they're critically acclaimed, but they're not viewed as much by our particular audience as one might believe based on the critical acclaim that the channel gets. It's kind of like a movie gets critical acclaim and then does $12 million at the box office. I mean, that's great that it won Academy Awards, but only did $12 million."

"And then the third thing is, that when our customers can go to iTunes or get Mad Men the same time it's on, the economics is we could pay for every customer -- we could pay -- for every customer who would watch Mad Men, we could pay their entire iTunes bill and it would be cheaper than burdening our customers who don't watch those channels with that cost."

"Our customers -- just read the blogs. Go read -- our customers are not looking at zombies in New York City. They live in farms and ranches. They have no clue about zombies in New York City marching around saying where is my AMC? I mean, they're watching a Saturday night movie with their husband or their wife or their kids with no commercials, and they're ecstatic, and their price didn't go up."

"Well, there's a lot of -- there is a lot of disconnect between Nielsen and our customers. I can't speak to anybody else. But it's not a huge issue with most of our providers today, as long as they don't make us -- as long as we're not forced to carry channels we don't want to carry, right? So obviously, AMC discussion might have gone a different way if IFC, Sundance and WE weren't in the equation, right, because then you can talk about value of one particular thing versus the value of 4 channels."

Full article here.

In summation then...

1. Charlie wasn't insulting Dish customers... he was saying that he doubted most Dish customers knew about the zombie thing in NY promoting Walking Dead. I have to say, I like the Walking Dead and I didn't know about this zombie march until well after the fact myself!

2. Charlie says the AMC programming is good, but not getting the viewers that some other programming does... and value/price is tied as much to the eyeballs as it is the quality. This is not new, you see it all over movies/tv where quality programs don't make the money that inferior product does.

3. Charlie says the AMC negotiation would be completely different if he could take just AMC and not also be forced to take IFC, We, etc. that nobody was screaming for... We have speculated this, and here it is from the horse's mouth... AMC might still be on Dish IF Dish could negotiate for AMC independent of the other channels.

4. Charlie explains the rationale behind the offers to pay people's iTunes (and probably the Rokus as well) that it is actually cheaper to do that than pay what AMC wanted for all the channels, including ones nobody wants that badly.

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