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Dish drops AMC (+WeTV, IFC & Sundance)


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#1801 OFFLINE   georule

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:12 PM

That. Doesn't really work out... If they saw that as being a competitive advantage when they had the channel, then they would now see not having it as a competitive disadvantage, and they sure don't seem to right now, so I don't think that was at all behind any of that process.


The marketing dept doesn't advertise your own competitive disadvantages. Never seen a DISH or Comcast ad "STILL WITHOUT SUNDAY TICKET!!"

Competitive advantages are actually more valuable and useable on the good side than competitive disadvantages are on the downside. And often competitive disadvantages you can spin as value/frugal cost advantage even further limiting the damage.

Of course, we'll never know for sure, and it is possible the bad blood had just gotten too bad over Voom. . . but I have a feeling that if DirecTV still didn't have AMC in HD, the odds a new DISH/AMC deal would have gotten done would have improved.
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#1802 OFFLINE   joyandjerry

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:14 PM

Computers are cheap. In the $300 range for some model on sale. I've seen them for less if you want to go refurbed. I don't think there are too many households with satellite TV that don't have at least one PC.

For that matter, DVD players are under $100.


I do realize that. We have a great Panny Blu-Ray that was very reasonable. To clarify, we just don't feel the need to purchase another computer and pay for an internet connection (for our home), as we are paying for this at work. (We're self-employed.) I'm sure that I spend more than enough time on it here! :lol:
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#1803 OFFLINE   tampa8

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:15 PM

but I have a feeling that if DirecTV still didn't have AMC in HD, the odds a new DISH/AMC deal would have gotten done would have improved.



I think it's a good point, though I would not say it would play much of a part. Dish was very mad at the Voom lawsuit, I'm not sure unless AMC allowed no carriage of WE and IFC would Dish have negotiated harder.

#1804 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:41 PM

Is this the thread to report the Voom trial updates? If so, the latest says that "New York Supreme Court Judge Richard Lowe III was visibly angry with Dish Network (Thursday), thumping his desk as he accused the company of disrespecting the court, according to an account of the VOOM case proceedings from Andrew Harms of advisory firm Washington Analysis." Read the whole summary from Deadline.com here: http://www.deadline....sh-network-amc/


Wow. From the linked article:

New York Supreme Court Judge Richard Lowe III was visibly angry with Dish Network today, thumping his desk as he accused the company of disrespecting the court, according to an account of the VOOM case proceedings from Andrew Harms of advisory firm Washington Analysis. “I don’t care how much money you got,” Lowe’s quoted as saying to Dish lawyers after the company failed to comply with his order to turn over documents that he said were not privileged. If Dish doesn’t give him electronic copies of the material, he said, then he might rule in favor of AMC Networks in its $2.5B breach of contract suit before Dish even presents its case — leaving it to the jury to just decide on the size of the damages.

Lowe also told Dish’s lawyers that he might initiate an investigation to see which of them failed to follow his directions, according to Harms. ”I do not believe that he does not know” Lowe said, referring to one of the lawyers sitting in front. This is just the latest instance when Lowe has butted heads with Dish. Earlier he found that the company inappropriately destroyed emails that might have helped AMC, and charged that Dish had engaged in “blatant misconduct and attempts to delay” the trial.


It really looks like Dish has been legally mis-behaving in this thing, and such moves make their chances of winning this thing look slim.

#1805 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:51 PM

It isn't like the courts don't get stuff wrong... I'm not defending Dish here exactly... but just because a judge rules something, doesn't make it factual... it just makes it legally enforceable. It wouldn't be the first time IF you find out after all this shakes out that the Judge had an axe to grind and was biased.

I'm not saying this is the case... I'm just saying, it could be... and we wouldn't find out until much later.

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#1806 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:35 PM

It isn't like the courts don't get stuff wrong... I'm not defending Dish here exactly... but just because a judge rules something, doesn't make it factual... it just makes it legally enforceable. It wouldn't be the first time IF you find out after all this shakes out that the Judge had an axe to grind and was biased.

I'm not saying this is the case... I'm just saying, it could be... and we wouldn't find out until much later.


Yeah, it could be that the Judge had a Dish installer drop a dish on his mother's kittens. But more likely it is what it seems.

#1807 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:10 PM

Yeah, it could be that the Judge had a Dish installer drop a dish on his mother's kittens. But more likely it is what it seems.


Probably so... but it was worth the reminder that our court system is all too often like our sports competitions.

The best team doesn't always win... sometimes a less talented team wins. Nobody even has to cheat, but when a 2-14 team beats a 15-1 team nobody would argue the 2-14 team was overall the better team....

Similarly... people are convicted of things they actually didn't do AND let go for things they actually did... so it doesn't necessarily follow that because a judge "rules" something in the Dish vs Voom case that it makes it fact... it just makes it a judgment in court.

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#1808 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:21 AM

Probably so... but it was worth the reminder that our court system is all too often like our sports competitions.

The best team doesn't always win... sometimes a less talented team wins. Nobody even has to cheat, but when a 2-14 team beats a 15-1 team nobody would argue the 2-14 team was overall the better team....

Similarly... people are convicted of things they actually didn't do AND let go for things they actually did... so it doesn't necessarily follow that because a judge "rules" something in the Dish vs Voom case that it makes it fact... it just makes it a judgment in court.


Would you have posted the same thing if the rulings had gone against AMC and I had posted it doesn't look good for them? ;)

(Just poking at you, bias is cool on web forums, in fact it is expected and makes them more fun. :) )

#1809 OFFLINE   clotter

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:17 AM

I was really hoping this whole issue would be taken care of before the premier of the new season of The Walking Dead.

Like all things, I know others could care less about AMC shows, but several of their shows are favorites of my family and I. Already missed the final season of Breaking Bad, am missing Hell on Wheels, and beginning tomorrow will sorely be missing The Walking Dead. It's only my humble opinion, but I feel my Dish subscription has lost roughly 20% of it's value. :mad:

#1810 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:18 AM

AMC wanted to be paid as the channel with Breaking Bad, Mad Men and The Walking Dead.

Except Breaking Bad is done, Mad Men is ending (next year? I forget) and that leaves them with The Walking Dead.

It's not worth what they were asking.

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#1811 OFFLINE   clotter

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:32 AM

Yes, I understand all the angles, but it doesn't change my humble opinion. ;)

#1812 OFFLINE   mike1977

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 03:25 PM

Watching live stream at http://blogs.amctv.c...live-stream.php

Pause...play...pause, sound, still picture...

YEAH!...just going to wait and just buy season and download the episodes on Mondays instead of attempting tomorrow night and going bald pulling my hair out.

Grrrr... (at Dish)

#1813 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 05:57 PM

Would you have posted the same thing if the rulings had gone against AMC and I had posted it doesn't look good for them? ;)

(Just poking at you, bias is cool on web forums, in fact it is expected and makes them more fun. :) )


Actually... with regard to this particular point... yes, I would. A judgement is court is not necessarily a statement of fact, no matter which side it is for.

The courtroom ends up being a different kind of popularity contest sometimes... where you're either trying to please the judge or jury more than necessarily prove a point of law.

I'm sure there are judgements in this case that will go against Voom that are not necessarily truth either. It does cut both ways.

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#1814 OFFLINE   RVRambler

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:58 AM

But when Dish 'destroyed' evidence (allegedly) wanted by the court, how can you argue 'in favor' of that action (by anyone), no matter which side you are 'biased' toward.

I would find it unacceptable if Voom had destroyed evidence needed in court, and Dish was guilty of that 'allegedly', so sometimes ppl ARE guilty, but just hide behind the lawyers, hoping for .......

As noted by others, the court system is absolutely NOT about 'truth', it is ALL about who presents the 'best' argument to sway judge/jury toward their side of the argument, nothing less or more!

Academics 'usually' argue about the 'truth' of a thing, NOT lawyers!! Most politicians are lawyers, thus our 'irrational' US congress/senate!!

As for me, I will find a way to watch/not miss 'Breaking Bad' & 'Mad Men' if either show ever comes on again, AMC really plays games with their audiences, don't they?!
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#1815 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:34 AM

While certainly not on the same scale... we just had a convicted rapist set free because of new information that basically overturned the original verdict some 20+ years ago.

So... not in the same neighborhood at all as the Voom suit... but still proves my basic point that a court decision does not indicate absolute truth... it just indicates a verdict/judgment.

It is fair to say "the judge ruled that Dish destroyed documents"... it is not fair to say "Dish destroyed documents"... it might seem like semantics, but it really isn't.

Basically, you can lose in court but still be right... it just means your side was outdone by the other side... not necessarily that they are right and you are wrong.

Courts can be a funny thing.

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#1816 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:50 PM

Except. when you read reports of the trial, Dish had no real defense against the ruling that they destroyed key documents. And it isn't opinion, they did not turn over the documents he ordered them to turn over.

I get it if you have spent months making out AMC and their boss to be the bad guy, and defending Dish, but so far these haven't been controversial rulings. Yeah, you can say Jerry Sandusky has been accused and convicted of abusing a lot of young kids but, hey, that doesn't really mean anything since courts can be wrong, but sometimes you really have to be biased to ignore what's going on. Dish destroyed documents that were pertinent to the case, and said, oh, sorry. And they have refused to turn over documents the judge has repeatedly ordered them to turn over. It's not a matter of whether the glove fits.

#1817 OFFLINE   scottchez

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:28 PM

Neighbor just called about the missing Walking Dead that starts tonight on AMC.
He already got a FREE Roku from Dish, now he also got a free $35 credit to pay for the Amazon Subscription to the Walking Dead to watch on the internet. Wow. Dish must be in this legal thing for the long run. Could be several more years of no AMC as I am sure if dish looses they will appeal to a higher court.
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#1818 OFFLINE   ehilbert1

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

Except. when you read reports of the trial, Dish had no real defense against the ruling that they destroyed key documents. And it isn't opinion, they did not turn over the documents he ordered them to turn over.

I get it if you have spent months making out AMC and their boss to be the bad guy, and defending Dish, but so far these haven't been controversial rulings. Yeah, you can say Jerry Sandusky has been accused and convicted of abusing a lot of young kids but, hey, that doesn't really mean anything since courts can be wrong, but sometimes you really have to be biased to ignore what's going on. Dish destroyed documents that were pertinent to the case, and said, oh, sorry. And they have refused to turn over documents the judge has repeatedly ordered them to turn over. It's not a matter of whether the glove fits.


Exactly!!! Sometimes it seems like Dish will be defended no matter what. There could be a video tape of them destroying evidence that damns them and people will still defend them.
It's TV guys and not a sports team. I just don't get why their defended to the death. Ok bad analogy but you get it.

#1819 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:18 PM

Except. when you read reports of the trial, Dish had no real defense against the ruling that they destroyed key documents. And it isn't opinion, they did not turn over the documents he ordered them to turn over.

I get it if you have spent months making out AMC and their boss to be the bad guy, and defending Dish, but so far these haven't been controversial rulings. Yeah, you can say Jerry Sandusky has been accused and convicted of abusing a lot of young kids but, hey, that doesn't really mean anything since courts can be wrong, but sometimes you really have to be biased to ignore what's going on. Dish destroyed documents that were pertinent to the case, and said, oh, sorry. And they have refused to turn over documents the judge has repeatedly ordered them to turn over. It's not a matter of whether the glove fits.


*sigh*

You're clearly biased towards AMC... so you're taking things as fact that can't possibly be proven as fact.

As I understand things... Dish deleted some emails, Voom says those were important evidence that Dish destroyed... Dish says no, they are not, and that they were accidentally deleted by an automated process and they had no reason to save them.

The judge ruled that Dish "should have known" to save them, and as such is issuing instruction to the jury that Dish has been ruled to have destroyed evidence.

Those are the facts as I know them pertaining to the case.

HOWEVER... in terms of the real-world... since Dish destroyed the emails, and admits to doing so... and Voom apparently does not have copies of these emails... it is pure conjecture as to what they may or may not have contained relevant to the case! So... we don't know if Dish truly destroyed any evidence or not, there is no way to know this factually.

Hence... the judge made a ruling relevant to the court case... but it in no way means factually that Dish actually destroyed evidence.

That was the point I was making... just like why we say things like "allegedly" even if we feel confident that someone did something.

The ruling of a judge, jury, or court does not have to be a statement of fact. It is merely a decision of the judge, jury, and court... People win cases without evidence and lose cases with evidence all the time.

There is no bias here... You're seeing bias where there is none. In fact, that you are even bringing up the Voom lawsuit in this thread shows you are biased towards the AMC camp trying to convince everyone that the only reason Dish isn't carrying their channels is the unrelated lawsuit.

The lawsuit is the lawsuit... AMC carriage today (or lack thereof) is a horse of a different color.

Yes, one probably colors the conversation of the other... but don't forget... Dish carried AMC channels long after the Voom lawsuit... and Dish added AMC-HD during the Voom lawsuit as well. IF it was truly about the Voom lawsuit, we would have lost these channels years ago!

So... they surely play a part... but if AMC had made what Dish felt was a fair offer, we probably would still have the channels today.

Thus... the Voom lawsuit really has nothing to do with AMC at this point... and you show your bias by bringing it up.

All I was pointing out was that whether Dish did anything wrong or not related to that lawsuit, the judge's ruling doesn't say anything except he ruled that way. This would still be 100% my position if the same judge had instead ruled that Dish did not destroy documents relevant to the case. It would still be just a ruling, not a statement of fact, either way...

For that matter, Dish will likely have rulings go their way that do not necessarily reflect fact. That's the way our court system works, unfortunately.

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#1820 OFFLINE   Eksynyt

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:30 AM

When Dish loses this lawsuit and billions of dollars, the last straw will be them losing all of the ESPN channels when that contract is up.

Welcome to DirecTV, guys.




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