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Dish drops AMC (+WeTV, IFC & Sundance)


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#1821 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:44 AM

When Dish loses this lawsuit and billions of dollars, the last straw will be them losing all of the ESPN channels when that contract is up.

Welcome to DirecTV, guys.


Since DirecTV posted its first net subscriber loss in I think ever... maybe DirecTV is going down the drain too... and we can all go back to attending live local theater performances!

:D

But... we should stay on topic... and this isn't a lawsuit thread last I checked.

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#1822 OFFLINE   kick4fun

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:09 AM

Hey, I'm a new Dish customer within the last couple of weeks.. I switched because of the Pac12 and worried about missing AMC and the shows like Walking Dead and Madmen.. Just got off the phone and will be receiving a new ROKU and a $35 credit so I can stream from Amazon.com They also mentioned that this credit will continue to March for Madmen, should Dish not resolve the issue with AMC.. I know this has been posted before, but considering I am a BRAND NEW customer, this is very cool.

#1823 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:45 AM

*sigh*

You're clearly biased towards AMC... so you're taking things as fact that can't possibly be proven as fact.

As I understand things... Dish deleted some emails, Voom says those were important evidence that Dish destroyed... Dish says no, they are not, and that they were accidentally deleted by an automated process and they had no reason to save them.

The judge ruled that Dish "should have known" to save them, and as such is issuing instruction to the jury that Dish has been ruled to have destroyed evidence.

Those are the facts as I know them pertaining to the case.

HOWEVER... in terms of the real-world... since Dish destroyed the emails, and admits to doing so... and Voom apparently does not have copies of these emails... it is pure conjecture as to what they may or may not have contained relevant to the case! So... we don't know if Dish truly destroyed any evidence or not, there is no way to know this factually.

Hence... the judge made a ruling relevant to the court case... but it in no way means factually that Dish actually destroyed evidence.


I'll try to find the more detailed info links and post them (in an airport right now.)

If you've ever been involved in a big lawsuit between a couple of companies (I have, more than once) you will find that you get a notice from the lawyers to "freeze" and protect a range of files, emails, etc. when there is the potential of a lawsuit. All automatic deletions are turned off on those, and the backups that large companies keep are also then gathered. One reason that companies have Records Retention rules is to ensure files and records are kept for defined periods of time due to just such occurrences.

In this case, a range of specific emails that were supposed to have been kept and produced were deleted. They clearly should not have been deleted. The State Supreme Court judge has handled many of these types of cases, and has ruled in favor of Dish on a number of issues in this case.

The other part, that you did not address, is the recent refusal of the attorneys to turn over the documents the judge has ordered them to turn over. He has made the order more than once, and the attorneys have simply refused to turn them over. Some of them are subscriber numbers that are being challenged and core to the case.

I have no bias in this case, as I don't know facts beyond what is being disclosed in court. If the other side had been doing what Dish was doing, I would have posted that it looks bad for them and good for Dish. But when the judge gets angry at attorneys because they repeatedly refuse to turn over the evidence he has ordered them to turn over, and the response is "Oh, that doesn't mean anything, it could just be the judge doesn't like them" or similar, it sounds like denial. Especially from someone who has gone out of their way to nitpick every comment from the AMC CEO and post everything you could find to show how bad they are.

It is really simpler than you are trying to make it. Dish has twice been admonished by the judge for refusing to turn over evidence, in one case destroying it, in the other refusing repeatedly to turn it over. Unless you just refuse to believe Dish could be in the wrong, the simple analysis is that Dish is holding back evidence.

OJ could be innocent. Jerry Sandusky is still saying he never touched a kid. Hey, that's how our court system works, right? It's not perfect, obviously (I'm currently testifying as an expert in a case in which a homeowner is suing a company over a fire that he is blaming on a paint company, even though he did not follow the label instructions, stuffed oily rags in a hot enclosed corner of his garage, etc. and, while it is amazing to me that this even made it to court, it is pretty impressive how well the judge is handling some complex issues the attorneys are throwing at him.)

#1824 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

All I really said was... you can't say Dish destroyed evidence. Nobody knows this except Dish.

What you can say is that Dish deleted some emails that Voom says they should have kept AND Voom suspects them of destroying evidence... and so the judge ruled in favor of Voom.

That's it.

Dish may very well have destroyed evidence... but we'll never know for certain, because they deleted those emails.

It might seem like semantics, but it isn't... especially not in court.

So... then the more recent Voom asking for some documents, Dish saying they are private, the judge disagreeing and asking them to turn them over... then Voom says Dish didn't give them all... and Dish says yes they did... and the judge comes back with "you don't have any credibility here."

The problem with that, and where it shows judge bias to me... is that IF the judge is saying Dish has no credibility... what's the point of continuing the trial? I mean, that sure sounds like the judge had made up his mind and will be coloring the trial with his already bias that nothing Dish says is trustworthy... and the jury will get wind of that as well eventually.

That's what I mean about bias. The judge should be there to make rulings... allow or disallow things... and so forth. The judge in a jury trial should not be saying things like that while the trial is ongoing.

IF he doesn't trust Dish, based on past behavior... fine... Dish may have earned that... but the judge should be handling that better.

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#1825 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:08 PM

All I really said was... you can't say Dish destroyed evidence. Nobody knows this except Dish.

What you can say is that Dish deleted some emails that Voom says they should have kept AND Voom suspects them of destroying evidence... and so the judge ruled in favor of Voom.

That's it.

Dish may very well have destroyed evidence... but we'll never know for certain, because they deleted those emails.

It might seem like semantics, but it isn't... especially not in court.

So... then the more recent Voom asking for some documents, Dish saying they are private, the judge disagreeing and asking them to turn them over... then Voom says Dish didn't give them all... and Dish says yes they did... and the judge comes back with "you don't have any credibility here."

The problem with that, and where it shows judge bias to me... is that IF the judge is saying Dish has no credibility... what's the point of continuing the trial? I mean, that sure sounds like the judge had made up his mind and will be coloring the trial with his already bias that nothing Dish says is trustworthy... and the jury will get wind of that as well eventually.

That's what I mean about bias. The judge should be there to make rulings... allow or disallow things... and so forth. The judge in a jury trial should not be saying things like that while the trial is ongoing.

IF he doesn't trust Dish, based on past behavior... fine... Dish may have earned that... but the judge should be handling that better.


If the emails in question where sent back and forth between voom and dish, I'm with you 100%, you can't know one way or the other, and since voom obviously didn't keep a copy of them, that's their tuff luck IMHO. However, if voom has kept all their emails and dish got rid of theirs, I blame dish for stupidity, and wanting to make sure that there was no way anything that may have been said could in any way come back to bit them.

With that said, all this legal wrangling, and amc believe they are worth more than they see to be, I don't see amc back for a very long time.

It will be interesting to see the sub numbers from both sat companies for this quarter, and then again, especially after the first of the year. They will be very telling of how some of these channels that are missing will be affecting both companies.

#1826 OFFLINE   donm

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:16 PM

http://m.deadline.co...om-case-emails/


Newly Discovered Emails Boost AMC Networks Over Dish Network In VOOM Case


The emails were discovered over the weekend and disclosed in court today — and they’re “hurting [Dish Network] in a big way,” according to an account from George Reed-Dellinger of advisory firm Washington Analysis. Susquehanna Financial Group’s Thomas Claps, who’s also monitoring the case, calls it “the most damaging evidence to date” against Dish in AMC‘s $2.5B breach of contract suit involving the satellite company’s 2008 decision to drop the now-defunct VOOM HD channels. It’s so important that Claps says Dish “may re-think its strategy” to have Chairman Charlie Ergen testify — and might be more motivated to negotiate a settlement with AMC that would return its channels to the No. 2 satellite provider before the end of the month when the jury is expected to reach its verdict. Dish dropped AMC in June.

The emails that AMC’s team found on Dish’s hard drives seem to cast a new light on an issue that central to the trial: Did VOOM’s backers (Cablevision and AMC, which the cable company spun off last year) live up to a condition in their carriage contract that required them to invest at least $100M a year in the fledgling networks? Dish says they didn’t — giving it the right to drop the channels – because the $100M requirement applied just to domestic programming, not overhead or overseas expenses.

But a 2005 email exchange between Ergen and his chief negotiator with VOOM, Michael Schwimmer, includes an appendix to the agreement with permitted expenditures and “overhead expenses are specifically referenced,” Claps says. Another email exchange when the agreement was completed in 2007 shows the execs agreeing that VOOM backers had to spend $100M a year on the venture — not just programming. “Schwimmer’s own words on April 27, 2007 are now directly inconsistent with his testimony” that the agreement was just about programming, Reed-Dellinger says.

#1827 OFFLINE   Inkosaurus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

http://m.deadline.co...om-case-emails/


Newly Discovered Emails Boost AMC Networks Over Dish Network In VOOM Case


The emails were discovered over the weekend and disclosed in court today — and they’re “hurting [Dish Network] in a big way,” according to an account from George Reed-Dellinger of advisory firm Washington Analysis. Susquehanna Financial Group’s Thomas Claps, who’s also monitoring the case, calls it “the most damaging evidence to date” against Dish in AMC‘s $2.5B breach of contract suit involving the satellite company’s 2008 decision to drop the now-defunct VOOM HD channels. It’s so important that Claps says Dish “may re-think its strategy” to have Chairman Charlie Ergen testify — and might be more motivated to negotiate a settlement with AMC that would return its channels to the No. 2 satellite provider before the end of the month when the jury is expected to reach its verdict. Dish dropped AMC in June.

The emails that AMC’s team found on Dish’s hard drives seem to cast a new light on an issue that central to the trial: Did VOOM’s backers (Cablevision and AMC, which the cable company spun off last year) live up to a condition in their carriage contract that required them to invest at least $100M a year in the fledgling networks? Dish says they didn’t — giving it the right to drop the channels – because the $100M requirement applied just to domestic programming, not overhead or overseas expenses.

But a 2005 email exchange between Ergen and his chief negotiator with VOOM, Michael Schwimmer, includes an appendix to the agreement with permitted expenditures and “overhead expenses are specifically referenced,” Claps says. Another email exchange when the agreement was completed in 2007 shows the execs agreeing that VOOM backers had to spend $100M a year on the venture — not just programming. “Schwimmer’s own words on April 27, 2007 are now directly inconsistent with his testimony” that the agreement was just about programming, Reed-Dellinger says.


lol. Owned.

#1828 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:46 PM

I agree... that would change my position on the matter as well. I still think that Voom did itself no favors and did not spend its money wisely on new content... BUT, that would be irrelevant to the Dish agreement, IF it can now be proven that the agreement did not specify how the money was to be spent.

That would be a huge nail in the coffin on Dish's side... which I would think would lead towards ending this thing in a hurry. IF all that is true, there went Dish's legs to stand on in this case.

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#1829 OFFLINE   AMike

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:50 PM

Apparently AMC didn't miss the Dish audience:

http://tvbythenumber...viewers/153085/

Largest basic cable telecast ever.

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#1830 OFFLINE   cfunk

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:54 PM

What also amazing is I don't know one person who watched it.

#1831 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:02 PM

Apparently AMC didn't miss the Dish audience:

http://tvbythenumber...viewers/153085/

Largest basic cable telecast ever.


I read that too... what's interesting about that... is it may in a roundabout way prove Dish's point that they didn't think they had many customers who watch the Walking Dead or other AMC shows.

*I* would be watching it... but it isn't nearly important enough for me to go through the upheaval of a provider change over it. I can wait and buy the Blu-rays when they come out next year, which I would do anyway... and I've go a lot of other TV shows, movies, and Blu-rays to keep me busy between now and then.

So... AMC proved they have a good and popular show, but they also proved they didn't "need" Dish viewers to break their previous ratings record... so I don't know if that helps things.

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#1832 OFFLINE   inazsully

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:38 PM

I didn't watch it and I wouldn't change providers over it either. But that sure as hell doesn't mean I don't want to watch it. It would be woefully incorrect to assume that a substantial number of subs do not miss AMC just because we haven't jumped ship. It's just one channel but it's not insignificant, just not a game changer. I, as many others here, hold Dish 100% responsible for this fiasco.

#1833 OFFLINE   dunkonu23

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:41 AM

Well, you know one person now. I bought the episode from iTunes, downloaded it to my iPad and watched in my 70" TV. No Dish involved. This crap makes me sick. I don't give a rats ass over who is responsible, though I have to say the recent news makes it look like Dish is least mature of the spoiled children.

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Edited by dunkonu23, 16 October 2012 - 05:47 AM.

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#1834 OFFLINE   mikeinaustin

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:28 AM

more news from today, more bad news for dish:

The judge hearing the case of AMC Networks' Voom high definition programming services versus Dish Network ruled on Tuesday that Dish's expert on damages won't be allowed to testify during the trial.

According to Thomas Claps, an analyst for Susquehanna Financial Group, who has been following the trial closely, ruling by Judge Richard Lowe III is "another significant blow to Dish."

According to Claps, Dish wanted to rebut Voom's claim that it has lost $2.4 billion in profits. But due to this ruling, and prior sanctions against Dish, they won't be able to have an expert question that claim.

AMC claims that Dish, then Echostar, breached its agreement to carry the Voom programming service, which has been discontinued.

On Monday, newly produced internal Dish emails appeared to weaken Dish's position and support AMC's assertion that Dish was aware that overhead expenses should be counted toward the $100 million Voom was required to spend in 2006 on its service.

According to Claps, AMC produced an email exchange between Michael Schwimmer, the lead negotiator for Dish on the Voom deal, and Dish chairman Charlie Ergen, then also the CEO, from April 27, 2005. This email exchange highlights that the $500 million spending cap referenced in the affiliation agreement is tied to the $500 million equity investment referenced in the LLC agreement.

"This is critical because Annex A to the LLC agreement delineates a list of permissible expenditures that count toward this $500 million equity investment, and overhead expenses are specifically referenced (i.e., salaries, benefits, general administrative costs, inter-company allocations, etc.," Claps says. "Thus, this email exchange further strengthens Voom's claims that Dish was fully aware, and acknowledged, that overhead expenses should be counted toward its $100 million spending requirement in 2006."

Claps says he expects the case to be settled. Part of that settlement could be carriage of AMC Networks' cable channels, which have been off Dish since earlier this year.

http://www.broadcast..._to_Testify.php

#1835 OFFLINE   LakeSteve

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:42 AM

What also amazing is I don't know one person who watched it.


You must not know that many people. If you do, you aren't socializing with them.

A good number of my personal friends were buzzing about the season premiere days in advance on Facebook and Twitter, a few of them even said they shut their phones off as to not be interrupted during it.

I can only imagine what a cash cow the show is in terms of revenue, even without Dish's customers seeing the commercials.

#1836 OFFLINE   eclipsetrb

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:40 AM

I just downloaded it plan to watch it later. Dish needs to get this solved before the judge decides to just finish them off and they end up getting owned by amc.

#1837 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:49 AM

Apparently AMC didn't miss the Dish audience:

Largest basic cable telecast ever.




All that tells me is that there are a lot of people who need serious psychiatric help. Maybe as in-patients.
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#1838 OFFLINE   FTA Michael

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:06 PM

Here's another news link: http://www.nypost.co...KIdC8ghO81GV05L

"Charlie Ergen had one of the worst days a media executive could have."
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#1839 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:11 PM

All that tells me is that there are a lot of people who need serious psychiatric help. Maybe as in-patients.


Get over yourself. Who are you to judge people based on liking a show?
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#1840 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:30 PM

...
As I understand things... Dish deleted some emails, Voom says those were important evidence that Dish destroyed... Dish says no, they are not, and that they were accidentally deleted by an automated process and they had no reason to save them.

The judge ruled that Dish "should have known" to save them, and as such is issuing instruction to the jury that Dish has been ruled to have destroyed evidence.

Those are the facts as I know them pertaining to the case.

HOWEVER... in terms of the real-world... since Dish destroyed the emails, and admits to doing so... and Voom apparently does not have copies of these emails... it is pure conjecture as to what they may or may not have contained relevant to the case! So... we don't know if Dish truly destroyed any evidence or not, there is no way to know this factually.

...

Looks like the deleted files were important, but they missed one and Dish is lying big time about their HD sub numbers! http://www.nypost.co...KIdC8ghO81GV05L

The tempest started yesterday morning in Manhattan state court when Cablevision lawyers surprised the courtroom with evidence that Dish had way more HD customers than it previously claimed to have — 8.3 million versus 5.3 million.
...
Cablevision was to have earned $3.25 from every Dish HD customer paying $20 to get Dish’s HD package. It is claiming damages of $2.4 billion.

Dish’s legal eagles claim they had the right to shut down Voom because Cablevision didn’t spend $100 million on programming.

Dish has been consistent throughout the battle — in court papers and testimony — that the $100 million had to be spent on programming.

In fact, a Dish witness Friday told the jury as much.

Cablevision countered that the cash could be spent on things other than programming.

The key issue came to a dramatic head yesterday when Cablevision lawyers unearthed a “smoking gun” 2005 Dish e-mail from the former lead negotiator of the Voom deal, Michael Schwimmer, mandating simply that Cablevision invest in the “Venture.”

The day was perceived by industry watchers as so bad for Dish that many started speculated on how much it would take for Cablevision to settle — with estimates ranging from $500 million to $1.2 billion.


It's no wonder Dish gets a ton of HD...They lie about how many HD subs they have resulting in paying smaller fees per sub.
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