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Dish AutoHop vs Networks Commercial Skipping Discussion


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#301 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:43 PM

Not quite. The consumer must still CHOOSE to use the Auto-hop feature. It's not automatic.


Customer's also must choose to pirate something but hosting it is illegal.

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#302 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:45 PM

Could you please find a relevant statement to make. Proxy voting is not at all the same thing.

Rather than passing summary judgement, perhaps you could explain how voting (skipping) is different than proxy voting (automated skipping). [hint: the mechanism doesn't much count as what you end up with]
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#303 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:45 PM

Customer's also must choose to pirate something but hosting it is illegal.


Could you elaborate a bit? I'm not sure those are parallel.
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#304 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:51 PM

Could you elaborate a bit? I'm not sure those are parallel.


We don't know yet IF Dish will be found to have done anything illegal... though I don't think they have.

However, I think the point was generally meant there in his example that just because the user presses the button doesn't mean Dish is absolved IF the courts go against them. The ruling likely would be that customers did nothing wrong in using a feature supplied to them BUT that Dish was wrong to give them that feature.

Now, I don't think the ruling will go that way... but that is a possible outcome and courts have given unexpected rulings before so we will have to wait and see.

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#305 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:51 PM

Could you elaborate a bit? I'm not sure those are parallel.


Really at the core of the complaints the networks are stating that with various features DISH has setup their own private on demand network and provides abilities that reduce the value of their programming. By doing so they have infringed on copyright violations by modifying the content provided to them without authorization and rebroadcasting it in a manner which they are not allowed to in their carriage contracts.

So DISH is the enabler of the issue however yes the consumers would be the ones using the technology to violate said agreements. It's the same argument that the PirateBay is using. "We only allow people to use our network and we do not host anything it's the users that are the ones who choose what is shared and what is downloaded."

When DISH was being pirated they focused on the enablers not always the end consumers unless in extreme situations. Remove the enabler and the other problems fade away.

#306 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:54 PM

Customer's also must choose to pirate something but hosting it is illegal.

Skipping commercials is not prohibited by law nor government policy (and probably not yet by contract).

Both piracy and trafficking of warez is illegal.
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#307 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:59 PM

Could you elaborate a bit? I'm not sure those are parallel.

Sounds more like an argument against DIRECTV's nomad.
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#308 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:01 PM

Skipping commercials is not prohibited by law nor government policy (and probably not yet by contract).

Both piracy and trafficking of warez is illegal.


I actually have to agree with HARSH here...I know of no law that says its illegal to skip a commercial. If its a violation of the contract, then it should be in civil court.
As long as the original is intact on the drive, I cannot see where the networks can claim any modification.

I think the big 4 are going to lose, if the judge doesnt throw it out before it starts.

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#309 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:01 PM

Skipping commercials is not prohibited by law nor government policy (and probably not yet by contract).

Both piracy and trafficking of warez is illegal.


Again focusing on one single item of the complaint is ignore the whole reason of the complaint.

I was asked to clarify so I provided examples that people can understand.

Downloading something that you have the right to have is not illegal regardless of the means. This has been proven in court so again it's the consumer who chooses to do something illegal. However this can spawn a whole tangent not related to this specific suit so let's just let it go or take it to PM if you wish.

#310 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:10 PM

OK, I don't want to join an argument re file sharing etc., but it really seems a stretch to claim, as I have read, that the show plus commercials is an integrated work (OH, guffaw: What a crock), and that passing over via FF or skip the commercials is tantamount to an unauthorized alteration of content.

Still, I am not sure that Dish made a great move by starting this, especially if it soaks up management attention and other resources (such as $$$) to defend itself.
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#311 ONLINE   scooper

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:55 PM

I actually have to agree with HARSH here...I know of no law that says its illegal to skip a commercial. If its a violation of the contract, then it should be in civil court.
As long as the original is intact on the drive, I cannot see where the networks can claim any modification.

I think the big 4 are going to lose, if the judge doesnt throw it out before it starts.


The quoted states it exactly, IMO.
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#312 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:36 PM

Oh well it's clear that all people want to focus on is if they can skip commercials or not so I guess we just wait 10 years for the courts to resolve it for people to see the whole picture.

#313 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:44 PM

^^ Is it because of your employment with Direct that you're so focused on demonizing Dish?

Dish is right in this matter and hopefully more carriers and vendors will develop and offer auto-skip technology; and then stand up to the networks.
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#314 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:51 PM

^^ Is it because of your employment with Direct that you're so focused on demonizing Dish?


How am I demonizing them? Last I checked I've just stated what the actual lawsuit is really about while people just keep saying "People don't watch commercials". I have said that this will be bad for consumers as well as others who are DISH subs because it's true.

Charlie is pissing off the people who provide the programming and they're not legally required to do so if they can prove this is a breach of contract. If they can't then they just decide that they no longer want to do business with DISH. This isn't rocket science and ultimately it will be consumers that pay. This is something that could create scenarios that are far more impacting than people realize. How bad do you think the churn would be if any of the local stations announced what DISH did about AMC. Then what happens to DISH? What happens to competition and innovation. So if being concerned for the average consumer and business landscape is demonizing them so be it.

#315 OFFLINE   strikes2k

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:58 PM

Really at the core of the complaints the networks are stating that with various features DISH has setup their own private on demand network and provides abilities that reduce the value of their programming. By doing so they have infringed on copyright violations by modifying the content provided to them without authorization and rebroadcasting it in a manner which they are not allowed to in their carriage contracts.

.


Could you please elaborate on the part where DISH has rebroadcast the program in a manner they are not allowed. They remove the commercials during the processing of the program on the Hopper, not at the broadcasting stage. The program exists unedited on the DVR's hard drive.

#316 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:11 PM

Could you please elaborate on the part where DISH has rebroadcast the program in a manner they are not allowed. They remove the commercials during the processing of the program on the Hopper, not at the broadcasting stage. The program exists unedited on the DVR's hard drive.


http://tv.yahoo.com/...-224625705.html

If you read the complaints it breaks out each part and how they all tie in to each other to create a whole of the complaint. If I quoted just one part it wouldn't make sense when looked at singly.

Basically what the broadcasters have done is taken small things that may have been grey areas before and compiled them into a complaint because DISH has compiled them all into one receiver.

This is why when people state that they can't make you watch commercials it's not really what the suit is about. What it's about is DISH creating a system that now works outside of legal permissions either due to copyright law or by contractual terms.

#317 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:11 PM

Shades228,
Not sure you have stated anything that is actually true or factual about the lawsuit. You have also attempted to confuse this case with illegal file sharing. How is that in any way related to how this new feature for a DVR system actually works?

Dish created a new feature for their DVR which is creating animosity on the behalf of the major networks. I argue that this feature does not in any way alter the content but some here seem to feel that it does.

The reason you provide the appearance of an agenda is that you imply that this specific case will harm all viewers in the end. Charlie would only hope to have that much power and influence over the entire industry and viewing public. Unfortunately he does not. Will you be just as quick to praise him if the outcome regarding the positives side of this case becomes reality? Only time will tell.

#318 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:24 PM

Shades228,
Not sure you have stated anything that is actually true or factual about the lawsuit. You have also attempted to confuse this case with illegal file sharing. How is that in any way related to how this new feature for a DVR system actually works?

Dish created a new feature for their DVR which is creating animosity on the behalf of the major networks. I argue that this feature does not in any way alter the content but some here seem to feel that it does.

The reason you provide the appearance of an agenda is that you imply that this specific case will harm all viewers in the end. Charlie would only hope to have that much power and influence over the entire industry and viewing public. Unfortunately he does not. Will you be just as quick to praise him if the outcome regarding the positives side of this case becomes reality? Only time will tell.


If you see where I have posted something that is not factual or true in regards to the complaints please let me know.

If I did business with you and then found a way to harm your business model would you be inclined to do business with me in the future? Would you treat me as well as you have other people who have not damaged you in some way?


So I guess my agenda to try to educate is stifled by the fact that I work for a competitor so rather than be seen as a detractor in the thread I'll just vacate the thread. If people have questions I'll be more than happy to discuss them via PM.

#319 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:40 PM

If they can't then they just decide that they no longer want to do business with DISH.


That's where Direct, Comcast, AT&T and other carriers need to close ranks with Dish against the money machines of Hollywood and Madison Avenue.
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#320 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:50 PM

Charlie is pissing off the people who provide the programming and they're not legally required to do so if they can prove this is a breach of contract. If they can't then they just decide that they no longer want to do business with DISH.

When the contracts run out the providers do not have to continue. It will be more difficult for the channels who run out first in each market ... if the broadcasters choose to withhold their signals one might lose their NBC station in a different year than their FOX station. The contracts vary by market with the only real connection between stations being the ownership ... for example, all the Fox O&Os negotiate together, the Gray Television stations negotiate together, the Sinclair stations negotiate together.

A complete coordinated cut off of all channels in all markets would not be possible outside of a court ruling that determined DISH had violated the copyright on that programming -which could lead to DISH losing permission to carry ANY local station in any market via the current law.

This is not a situation broadcasters want to be in ... but over the years they have devalued free carriage via satellite (which increases their viewer base) and moved to a pay per viewer model. It is almost like some broadcasters want to slit their own throats by not being on cable and satellite.

But throw away the current permissive laws that allow DISH to carry broadcast TV under the must carry/consent to carry model and the only way carriage would be possible would be under individual copyright arrangements with each station (not illegal, but working outside the currently used carriage law). And perhaps that is what the greedier stations/station groups/networks want. More money from the satellite providers and less competition from other stations.

Not all stations are greedy ... but all need to look out for those stations that are greedy. The cheering if stations win an AutoHop lawsuit will be short lived if the determination is "copyright violation" and full stations lose carriage. It may get to the point where congress will need to step in again and redraw the law to protect consumers again from the greed of select stations, station groups and networks.

#321 OFFLINE   Jhon69

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:17 AM

Well normally I support DISH in their endeavors but I must abstain from any support of Primetime Anytime and AutoHop.I also feel fortunate that I live in an excellent OTA area as I am afraid the networks may retaliate against DISH.If NBC does this since this is an Olympics year I just hope NBC does not restrict some programming from DISH viewers because of this issue.Let's hope the courts can convene concerning this issue and the jury solve it quickly one way or the other.:nono2:

#322 OFFLINE   runner861

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:28 AM

I don't think that this issue will receive a final resolution on the merits any time soon. A court may issue an injunction stopping the practice pending a resolution, or a court may decline to do so. That is the immediate issue.

What the stations will do with regard to retransmission authorization is a longer-term issue, and one not directly related to the legality of Dish's autohop feature.

The ultimate resolution of the matter is a very long-term issue. It could well end up at the Supreme Court.

#323 OFFLINE   sregener

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:50 AM

I think this lawsuit boils down to one question. When someone skips a commercial with their remote by pressing fast forward or skip, they are actively and purposefully skipping that commercial, on their own. What dish has done is make it so dish now alters the stream that you see and they are the ones actively altering what you are viewing, without you actively participating in that changing of the viewing stream.


I think you are making too much of this software feature. I can see somebody saying that the remote control, by changing the channel without requiring the viewer to get up and turn the knob, alters the viewing experience and thus should be illegal. Or that 30-second skip, by not requiring the viewer to press the fast-forward button and time the pressing of play, alters the viewing experience and thus should be illegal. Auto-Hop makes skipping commercials easier, but it is by no means altering the viewer's control of the situation.

#324 OFFLINE   MysteryMan

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:09 AM

Personally I like the Auto Hop feature and would like to see all service providers offering this technology. I can also see the Networks point of view as well. It would be best if both sides can resolve this between themselves. Any attorney will tell you the last thing you want is going into a courtroom and having a judge make a decision for you.
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#325 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:02 AM

Personally I like the Auto Hop feature and would like to see all service providers offering this technology. I can also see the Networks point of view as well. It would be best if both sides can resolve this between themselves. Any attorney will tell you the last thing you want is going into a courtroom and having a judge make a decision for you.

I think it's a very, very bad idea.

Any service provider that does this will wind up paying higher carriage fees charged by the broadcasters to make up for the lost ad revenue and right into the bills of the subscribers.

This is finacially bad for everyone...except maybe Dish. :nono2:

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