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Dish AutoHop vs Networks Commercial Skipping Discussion


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#141 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 04:54 PM

Dish Sues Networks, Fox Sues Dish Over Ad-Skipping Auto Hop

http://tv.yahoo.com/...-211728859.html


I don't see this going well for consumers during the litigations.
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#142 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:02 PM

I do have to point out the irony that Dish introduces AutoHop feature, then networks decide not to accept commercial advertising money from Dish to promote their Hopper/Joey receivers.

So... on the one hand Dish argues "customers should be able to watch what they want, and they don't want to watch commercials"... but on the other hand Dish is paying money to get commercials airing that sell their products.

What customers does Dish think will be watching those commercials? I mean, if Dish wants to block commercials they seem to be saying customers don't watch them so why throw money in the garbage by paying for your own commercials?

Only Dish customers with Hoppers can automatically skip commercials. What Dish wants is folks who are not currently Dish customers. They can't automatically skip commercials.;)

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#143 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:05 PM

Sorry to hear that. It will just be another 5-4 decision in favor of the networks.


Which could be several years down the road, with the only winners being the lawyers.
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#144 OFFLINE   lacruz

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:06 PM

Another Dish Lawsuit = Price Increases. The customer is always left paying Charlie's lawyers. The customers will be the losers here, regardless of the outcome, our rates will go up.

#145 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:07 PM

Only Dish customers with Hoppers can automatically skip commercials. What Dish wants is folks who are not currently Dish customers. They can't automatically skip commercials.;)


Exactly... thus the irony. Dish will have a hard time arguing that commercials have no value when they are themselves advertising... so they are kind of undercutting their own defense because the networks will claim Dish AutoHop eliminates commercials that their advertisers paid for assuming viewers would at least have a chance of watching.

Dish clearly recognizes value in advertising or they wouldn't be making commercials of their own and buying spots on networks. Would Dish pay as much for those spots if DirecTV and cable customers had their own "AutoHop" feature such that Dish commercials might never be seen?

The answer to that question will undercut Dish's stance on defending AutoHop.

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#146 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:08 PM

Did we watch the same Chuck? The Subway product placements on that show were horrendous. In fact, Subway product placement has been terrible in every show they've added it to, even Community, naming one of it's characters Subway was ridiculous.

Edit: Looks like FOX is the first to get the lawsuit ball rolling. http://www.hollywood...ork-auto-329287


While there were a few tmes it was over the top... it is a lot better then the Toyota ones on Bones.

Community by design is an over the top, and purposely does that... as does Pawn Stars (With Subway).
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#147 OFFLINE   djpadz

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:14 PM

Wasn't this battle already fought and lost over a decade ago with ReplayTV's commercial-skip feature?

#148 OFFLINE   356B

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:22 PM

Which could be several years down the road, with the only winners being the lawyers.

And the only real losers will be the subscribers.
There is no way the networks didn't know this was in the works. If one was a paranoid, conspiracy type you might deduct this is a capitalist plot to raise the price of programing.
The posturing is just that, the refusal to runs ads for Dish is stupid, revenue is revenue, these guys would take ads from the Devil if they thought they could pull if off. No this is about big money and Dish's stock was up today in a down Nasdaq market...this ain't no FB deal. What fun...!
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#149 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:47 PM

Dish will have a hard time arguing that commercials have no value when they are themselves advertising... so they are kind of undercutting their own defense because the networks will claim Dish AutoHop eliminates commercials that their advertisers paid for assuming viewers would at least have a chance of watching.


I don't see them saying they have no value, only that the viewer should be able to choose whether to watch them or not. I choose not to, even without a 'spensive 'Roo contraption.
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#150 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 06:00 PM

Wasn't this battle already fought and lost over a decade ago with ReplayTV's commercial-skip feature?



The lawsuit was dismissed due to the people who purchased replays assetts chose to not use that feature due to fear of damages. So while it was fought it was never finished.

I believe this may have been posted earlier;

http://tv.yahoo.com/...-200728242.html
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#151 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 06:43 PM

I don't see them saying they have no value, only that the viewer should be able to choose whether to watch them or not. I choose not to, even without a 'spensive 'Roo contraption.


Users can already choose not to watch commercials by DVRing and skipping them OR by closing their eyes or getting up and going to the bathroom.

The AutoHop feature, however, is different since it lets the user press a button once and skip all commercials for the duration of that program without further interaction.

Using the Manual skipping method means you actually still watch snippets of commercials in order to find where to start watching your program again... whereas AutoHop ensures you see none of the commercials.

That's why AutoHop is different and why the networks are complaining. Nobody can make you watch commercials, but until now there was no automated way to easily skip all of the commercials with one press of a button.

IF this feature wins, customers might be temporarily happy... but networks will not be able to sell commercials anymore and then the cost of programming (and channels) will go up OR those channels and programs will go away.

I don't think people understand just how much of the programming they like exists because of commercial revenue to the networks.

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#152 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:13 PM

IF this feature wins, customers might be temporarily happy... but networks will not be able to sell commercials anymore and then the cost of programming (and channels) will go up OR those channels and programs will go away.

I don't think people understand just how much of the programming they like exists because of commercial revenue to the networks.


You are trying to say that time shifting and using the skip button is somehow different but fundamentally it is not. In the end you are still skipping the ad. I am sure advertisers do think in terms of how effective their ad is based on a consumer viewing 1 or 2 seconds of it:rolleyes:

The argument that ad revenues will be lost forever was already put forth and proven wrong when the DVR first hit the streets and became wildly popular. The truth is it (VCR,DVR,TIVO etc) has had ZERO effect on ad revenues.

#153 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:16 PM

And the rest join the fray. NBC and CBS file suits and ABC is probably just waiting until tomorrow to get headlines.

http://www.hollywood...sue-dish-329287
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#154 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:10 PM

Ugh, just knew this was going to happen. If the networks win, wouldn't that make ad block plugins for web browsers illegal?

Interesting the networks use terminology like copyright violation, unlawful, unauthorized modification, etc...

Thing is nothing is modified. AFAIK the transport stream is copied bit for bit from whats uplinked by the networks. Copyright violation? That would make all DVR's illegal. Unauthorized modification? To what? The end user makes a conscious decision to turn the feature on, and even then they can't use it until the next day. All it does is automate the 30skip / FF or whatever I would be normally doing on DirecTV, Comcast, or whoever.

Oh and what about the retrans fee's that keep going up every single year?

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#155 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:31 PM

IMHO, this is just plain bad for the subscriber. If they can't show their commercials on a particular service providers DVR then they charge that providers more to carry their channels...higher bills for us. I don't like where this is going.

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#156 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:40 PM

Ugh, just knew this was going to happen. If the networks win, wouldn't that make ad block plugins for web browsers illegal?

Interesting the networks use terminology like copyright violation, unlawful, unauthorized modification, etc...

Thing is nothing is modified. AFAIK the transport stream is copied bit for bit from whats uplinked by the networks. Copyright violation? That would make all DVR's illegal. Unauthorized modification? To what? The end user makes a conscious decision to turn the feature on, and even then they can't use it until the next day. All it does is automate the 30skip / FF or whatever I would be normally doing on DirecTV, Comcast, or whoever.

Oh and what about the retrans fee's that keep going up every single year?


It would be a large jump to ad blockers so I wouldn't worry about that plus this is going to take years to resolve (See Tivo vs Echostar).

I would be more concerned with other things. Networks get an injunction to stop autoskip, PTAT, Sling, they pull services completely, or they refuse to allow new contracts to take place during this litigation. While those are extremes they're certainly not FUD at this time.
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#157 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:18 PM

You are trying to say that time shifting and using the skip button is somehow different but fundamentally it is not. In the end you are still skipping the ad. I am sure advertisers do think in terms of how effective their ad is based on a consumer viewing 1 or 2 seconds of it:rolleyes:

The argument that ad revenues will be lost forever was already put forth and proven wrong when the DVR first hit the streets and became wildly popular. The truth is it (VCR,DVR,TIVO etc) has had ZERO effect on ad revenues.


You and many others keep missing the difference.

There's a huge difference between you throwing away junk mail and your mailman not delivering it to you in the first place!

You recording and skipping commercials manually is no different than using the bathroom or going to get a snack. This is largely why the DVR and trick play features won out because they can't make you watch anything you don't want to watch.

AutoHop is a whole new ball of wax. AutoHop gives you the ability to disable all commercials in a given program with the press of one button.

Now... they don't know whether or not I watch any commercials ever... but with AutoHop they know I don't even have a chance.

If you were an advertiser, how much money would you pay for an ad that you know people aren't watching because they can disable commercials entirely?

Your boss doesn't know if you goof off at work sometimes... maybe your lunch hour is a lunch 75 minutes some days... but IF you put a big sign up announcing your mid-day absence then you can bet your boss takes notices.

AutoHop is a big sign saying "no commercials here"... which is way more definitive than maybe customers skip and maybe they don't. AutoHop is definitely they do.

That's the difference.

Dish is paying for Hopper commercials. Can you imagine how mad Dish would be if they paid NBC for a 30-second commercial spot and then NBC doesn't air it? Yeah, maybe no one watches it... but they can't watch it if it isn't on.

Dish implementing AutoHop is a world of difference to you skipping commercials yourself.

I know people think commercials are evil... but do you want every channel to cost as much as HBO does? That would be where we would be headed IF commercial TV goes away.

Complain all you want, but I'd rather the networks and advertisers "think" I might be watching their commercials so they will keep funding the programming so all my networks don't cost $15-$20 each like the premium channels.

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#158 OFFLINE   Renard

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:49 PM

Do you think Directv will do it as well?
I hope YES BIG TIME.

#159 OFFLINE   Marlin Guy

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:01 PM

Do you think Directv will do it as well?
I hope YES BIG TIME.



They'll wait and see how the innovator comes out legally, and then copy the genius.

#160 OFFLINE   TheRatPatrol

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:03 PM

I really hope this isn't the beginning to the end of skipping ads altogether.




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