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Dish AutoHop vs Networks Commercial Skipping Discussion


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#176 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:41 AM

I thought the first remotes used sound? (tuning forks or something)

The non-Zenith ones did (until the Zenith patent ran out).

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#177 ONLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:47 AM

I go even further than that.
I tell the dealership that if they stick one of their dealer emblems on the back of my new car then there is no deal.


Same here. If I buy a used car with one, it's the first thing that gets removed.

I ripped into a hardware store manager one day because most everything I wanted to buy had not only the True Value logo, but the local store's name branded all over them. He couldn't quite see the difference between "Scott's" or "Vermont American" and his store name.
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#178 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:48 AM

That is EXACTLY how the Hopper works. They do not remove the commercials. If you FFWD or REW past the Auto Hop point by one second, the commercials will play.

I think the problem is , most receivers do like a 10 second or 30 second skip. I know any of the boxes i had did. But you can still see, the commercial.
It doesn't skip an entire 3 minute period , like it sound like the hopper can do.

There was nothing wrong with the old system, so something has obviously changed form the VIP to the Hopper.

You guys act like the Networks just don't know how it works.
OK They are not that DUMB! They see something they don't like!

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#179 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:48 AM

You and many others keep missing the difference. There's a huge difference between you throwing away junk mail and your mailman not delivering it to you in the first place!

You recording and skipping commercials manually is no different than using the bathroom or going to get a snack. This is largely why the DVR and trick play features won out because they can't make you watch anything you don't want to watch.

AutoHop is a whole new ball of wax. AutoHop gives you the ability to disable all commercials in a given program with the press of one button.


I absolutely understand the difference. What you fail to acknowledge is that the results are the same. In either case hitting the forward button 7 times in a row or activating the auto hop feature for each and every show provides the exact same outcome.

Now... they don't know whether or not I watch any commercials ever... but with AutoHop they know I don't even have a chance.

Only if you activate it and they do not know if you do!

If you were an advertiser, how much money would you pay for an ad that you know people aren't watching because they can disable commercials entirely?

I do not know if anybody is watching it without autohop either and you cannot disable commercials entirely. Only for programs that PTAT records and only after a designated amount of time passes. There could be room for negotiation on the last point alone.

Your boss doesn't know if you goof off at work sometimes... maybe your lunch hour is a lunch 75 minutes some days... but IF you put a big sign up announcing your mid-day absence then you can bet your boss takes notices.

The advertisers, just like my boss, are not stupid. They (advertisers) already know millions of people are skipping their ads every night. My boss knows if I am goofing off because my work is not done.

AutoHop is a big sign saying "no commercials here"... which is way more definitive than maybe customers skip and maybe they don't. AutoHop is definitely they do.

Customers still have to acknowledge they want to skip. Some may and some may not. It may be definitive in your mind but that does not mean it is.

Dish is paying for Hopper commercials. Can you imagine how mad Dish would be if they paid NBC for a 30-second commercial spot and then NBC doesn't air it? Yeah, maybe no one watches it... but they can't watch it if it isn't on.

Dish is not preventing the networks from transmitting the commercials. Nor are they deleting the commercials from the stream. The commercials still exist in the recording and if you do not choose to autohop you can watch the broadcast just as it aired.

Dish implementing AutoHop is a world of difference to you skipping commercials yourself.

The networks will definitely be looking for advocates to work on their case and/or testify and argue this point on their behalf. I am sure this job pays very well. Forward resume and credentials to the major networks taking part in the litigation.

I know people think commercials are evil... but do you want every channel to cost as much as HBO does? That would be where we would be headed IF commercial TV goes away.

We Dish subscribers already pay the network retransmission fees for channels that are supposed to be free. Commercials and advertisers are not evil, in this particular case the networks are and swizzle in just a pinch of greed into that description as well. If the big four are supposed to be completely paid for with ads why do we then have to pay them anything additional just to receive them from our provider?

Complain all you want, but I'd rather the networks and advertisers "think" I might be watching their commercials so they will keep funding the programming so all my networks don't cost $15-$20 each like the premium channels.

I would argue that the cost of "free" networks subsidized with ads will never equal the cost of an HBO with zero ads. It will always be something less. I agree there is an argument on both sides of this coin. I am far from complaining here. I acknowledge that this is just part of the process and by now you know which side I am on.:)

JD

#180 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:56 AM

Until a little while ago, broadcast stations WERE 'free and subsidized by ads'.

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#181 OFFLINE   Ray C@DISH Network

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:09 AM

Auto Hop does not remove commercials from the recordings. When a program is selected with the RED Kangoroo in the upper right hand corner, a box appears asking if you want to enable the feature, so the choice is yours if you want to watch commercials or not. If you select NO you can watch all the commercial you want. Thanks.

I absolutely understand the difference. What you fail to acknowledge is that the results are the same. In either case hitting the forward button 7 times in a row or activating the auto hop feature for each and every show provides the exact same outcome.


Only if you activate it and they do not know if you do!

I do not know if anybody is watching it without autohop either and you cannot disable commercials entirely. Only for programs that PTAT records and only after a designated amount of time passes. There could be room for negotiation on the last point alone.

The advertisers, just like my boss, are not stupid. They (advertisers) already know millions of people are skipping their ads every night. My boss knows if I am goofing off because my work is not done.

Customers still have to acknowledge they want to skip. Some may and some may not. It may be definitive in your mind but that does not mean it is.


Dish is not preventing the networks from transmitting the commercials. Nor are they deleting the commercials from the stream. The commercials still exist in the recording and if you do not choose to autohop you can watch the broadcast just as it aired.

The networks will definitely be looking for advocates to work on their case and/or testify and argue this point on their behalf. I am sure this job pays very well. Forward resume and credentials to the major networks taking part in the litigation.


We Dish subscribers already pay the network retransmission fees for channels that are supposed to be free. Commercials and advertisers are not evil, in this particular case the networks are and swizzle in just a pinch of greed into that description as well. If the big four are supposed to be completely paid for with ads why do we then have to pay them anything additional just to receive them from our provider?


I would argue that the cost of "free" networks subsidized with ads will never equal the cost of an HBO with zero ads. It will always be something less. I agree there is an argument on both sides of this coin. I am far from complaining here. I acknowledge that this is just part of the process and by now you know which side I am on.:)

JD



#182 ONLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:13 AM

Until a little while ago, broadcast stations WERE 'free and subsidized by ads'.


They still are. I watch and record a number of broadcast stations and their subchannels and skip commercials at will without paying a dime for any of them.
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#183 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:20 AM

They still are. I watch and record a number of broadcast stations and their subchannels and skip commercials at will without paying a dime for any of them.


OTA? Maybe, but you're still paying for networks in your overall bill........
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#184 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:21 AM

Auto Hop does not remove commercials from the recordings. When a program is selected with the RED Kangoroo in the upper right hand corner, a box appears asking if you want to enable the feature, so the choice is yours if you want to watch commercials or not. If you select NO you can watch all the commercial you want. Thanks.


That point has been made many times already, and please trim what you quote to what's relevant.
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#185 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:22 AM

^Correct. They are only free to those with only an antenna. Everyone else is paying something for them.

#186 OFFLINE   Herdfan

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:24 AM

Another bit of irony... How many posters who hate commercials and want to skip them all... how many of you have links or things in your signatures or avatars that are advertisements? Or maybe you wear clothes with logos on them? Or a bumper sticker on your car perhaps?

If advertisements are evil and to be skipped... why are you advertising?


Because putting on a shirt takes "X" amount of time whether or not it has a logo or not. Watching 40 minutes of show that take 60 because of commercials is the difference. The advertising is not bad, the time it takes is.

I am starting to understand Charlie's point. Why should customers have to pay to receive a signal via satellite or cable that is free OTA? So to punish the networks and affiliates for making customers pay for something that should be free, he developed Auto-Hop. Good for him.

#187 ONLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:29 AM

^Correct. They are only free to those with only an antenna. Everyone else is paying something for them.


So, get an antenna. That way you get all the sub-channels and other minor channels not carried by the satellite and cable companies.

You don't HAVE to pay for the networks.
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#188 ONLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:31 AM

I am starting to understand Charlie's point. Why should customers have to pay to receive a signal via satellite or cable that is free OTA?


That goes into another thread we've seen here many times. Just ban retransmission fees and get it over with.
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#189 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:56 AM

They still are. I watch and record a number of broadcast stations and their subchannels and skip commercials at will without paying a dime for any of them.


No they're not. They're available for free OTA, but Dish pays retrans fees to at least one station in my market.

"Belligerent and numerous."

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#190 OFFLINE   domingos35

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:01 AM

i don't think dish will have any problems winning this case in court

#191 ONLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:12 AM

i don't think dish will have any problems winning this case in court


Why?
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#192 OFFLINE   Marlin Guy

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:15 AM

I think the problem is , most receivers do like a 10 second or 30 second skip. I know any of the boxes i had did. But you can still see, the commercial.



You are probably used to 30 second "slip" on DirecTV. It's similar to Dish's 60x FFWD, only in regulated 30 second bursts. That and auto-correct were two things that really annoyed me about my DriecTV DVR.
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#193 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:32 AM

Quite a bit seems to annoy you! DIRECTV® has a 30 Skip but you have to enable it via entering a keyword.

I find it easier to use FF 3 and with a tiny bit of skill, land it exactly where I want, be it a .5, 1, 2, 3, 3.5 etc. commercial block.
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#194 OFFLINE   Marlin Guy

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:47 AM

DIRECTV® has a 30 Skip but you have to enable it via entering a keyword.


And how many everyday users know about that little song and dance?
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#195 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:55 AM

And how many everyday users know about that little song and dance?
http://www.weaknees.com/hr20-tips.php


2,788,498 though there's neither song nor dance....:nono2:
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#196 OFFLINE   phrelin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:06 PM

While I may agree with you, there are a few facts that are undeniable. First, broadcast television consistently delivers the highest ratings in the country. There must be something about the economic model that allows them to afford higher quality programming in larger quantities than the cable model does. It may have something to with the fact that many people use antennas or get "lifeline" cable - which includes almost nothing but local broadcast stations.

It isn't the commercials themselves, because USA and SyFy have commercials, too. I believe it is the ubiquity of these channels - they are in almost every single household with a television.


Actually, the consistency of broadcast ratings is in decline. This year NBC had a number of decent-to-good shows get terrible ratings. Fox and ABC struggle more than they used to. CBS may be the winner, but the pot has gotten smaller. And The CW....

I've posted this before, but IMHO if satellite/cable would be allowed to deliver directly broadcast network content consistent with time zones, ratings would not change and the networks would make more money by not sharing ad revenue with locals. Local channels would instantly lose their entitlement status and would have to offer desirable content to survive.

In most DMA's we would likely see two or three channels offering network content on sub channels for OTA folks.

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#197 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:00 PM

Another thing worth mentioning...

I don't think Dish is doing anything illegal. I think they were very careful about this... so I don't think the networks will be able to win anything in court.

However... IF Dish does (as I expect) win this in court... then as I said earlier, it spells something of an end to commercial broadcast TV because the other satellite and cable companies will soon follow suit most likely if customers demand this... and then the networks will be unable to sell commercial time for what they do today.

The networks will have to look elsewhere for that money... and that means your and my pockets!

This commercial skipping thing will not be free to us... mark my words.

You want the end of commercials... be careful what you ask for... you might just get it.

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#198 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:02 PM

Posted Image

ENGLEWOOD, CO -- (Marketwire) -- 05/25/12 -- DISH (NASDAQ: DISH) filed a lawsuit in defense of its AutoHop™ commercial-skipping feature after threats from broadcasters and responded to subsequent suits filed against it late Thursday by CBS, FOX and NBC.

The following statements can be attributed to Dave Shull, senior vice president of Programming for DISH:

"The lawsuits filed by the networks essentially argue that 'consumers must watch commercials.' We find that proposition absurd and profoundly anti-consumer."

"Customers have been skipping commercials since the birth of the remote control, and the networks are arguing against that fact. Taken to the extreme, will the networks next ask consumers to stop changing channels?"

"Collectively, the networks reap billions in retransmission fees -- fees that are reflected in subscribers' growing bills. For their money, consumers deserve to use content they pay for as they wish."

"AutoHop needs to be put in perspective: the majority of our viewers watch their primetime shows live or during the same evening -- the time that is most valuable to advertisers. We chose to incorporate AutoHop as a next day feature and only if enabled by the consumer."

About DISH
DISH Network Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH), through its subsidiary DISH Network L.L.C., provides approximately 14.071 million satellite TV customers, as of March 31, 2012, with the highest quality programming and technology with the most choices at the best value, including HD Free for Life. Subscribers enjoy the largest high definition lineup with more than 200 national HD channels, the most international channels, and award-winning HD and DVR technology. DISH Network Corporation's subsidiary, Blockbuster L.L.C., delivers family entertainment to millions of customers around the world. DISH Network Corporation is a Fortune 200 company. Visit www.dish.com.

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#199 OFFLINE   TBoneit

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:04 PM

Do the networks hold the rights to the combination of their programming and the commercials?


I think for that to fly the networks would need to hold the copyright to the commercial?

I don't recall that anyone went after JVC for offering a commercial skip feature on their VCRs back in the day. It worked much the same way: commercials appeared when watching live and were marked with in and out points after the recording had completed.


As I remember several brands had a system where you could could manually put a chapter mark onto the tape that you could skip to when playing back.

Not very automatic TBO.

This doesn't go nearly as far as the self-righteous movie rental companies that engage in editing the daylights out of movies to remove the content that they find objectionable (this has withstood some pretty serious legal wrangling).


It was my understanding that they lost indirectly.

To be able to edit the "Objectionable" content they have to violate the DMCA that makes it illegal to defeat Copy protection /DRM.

So I don't see how they can do it legally.

I am waiting to see the fallout from autohop.
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#200 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:06 PM

I just posted a new press release from Dish... and I think Dish is stepping into a mess here with the quotes from their VP of Programming.

Consider:

"For their money, consumers deserve to use content they pay for as they wish."

So... one might just as well ask why can't Dish Sling customers use the Slingplayer software on their PC and Mac to Sling? Why do we have to use their Web site or mobile app? Why can't we "use content" that we "pay for" as we wish?

Also... Why can't we play our external hard drive content on our PCs? After all, we are paying for that content too, right?

Making that kind of a blanket statement about customers while already restricting (sometimes for logical and understood reasons) the use of the content makes Dish look a little foolish in my opinion.

They can't take a "let the consumer use content as they wish" stance when they are not in fact pushing this fully themselves.

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