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DirecTV National HD Listing/Maps Discussion Thread (Technical - Not Anticipation)


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#26 OFFLINE   maartena

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 08:52 PM

Don't forget the rest of the world, there is more then just DIRECTV and Dish out there needing hardware like this.


What makes you think European and Asian satellite broadcasters use an American manufacturer and not use a local one e.g. a German or Japanese manufacturer? They have a whole different history (PAL/NTSC, 50hz vz 60hz, etc), and it is very likely they too use very customized equipment that isn't the same between broadcasters there either.

It's not that simple.
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#27 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:04 PM

What makes you think European and Asian satellite broadcasters use an American manufacturer and not use a local one e.g. a German or Japanese manufacturer? They have a whole different history (PAL/NTSC, 50hz vz 60hz, etc), and it is very likely they too use very customized equipment that isn't the same between broadcasters there either.

It's not that simple.


And what makes you think that DIRECTV isn't using hardware made overseas? How much hardware in the video industry is USA made anymore? Back in college, back in the 70's, broadcast cameras we used were made by RCA or GE. Now all you see are Sony or Panasonic, both made in countries that use a different standard. VTR's came from RCA or Ampex. IIRC hasn't Tandberg which is owned by a Ericsson of Sweden has sold MPEG4 encoders to DIRECTV.

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#28 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 10:01 PM

Most likely they're moving to EN8190 encoders.

"Tandberg also introduced the EN8190 HD encoder, an MPEG-4 4:2:0 product aimed at direct-to-home (DTH) satellite applications as well as the IPTV market. Goldman says the EN8190 represents a 20-25% improvement in bit-rate efficiency over the company's previous MPEG-4 4:2:0 model, enough for a DTH operator to add one more HD channel per satellite transponder. Tandberg was demonstrating the EN8190 delivering six HD channels in 30 Mbps of bandwidth using its statistical multiplexing technology."

Edited by Sixto, 02 June 2012 - 10:12 PM.


#29 OFFLINE   TheRatPatrol

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 10:14 PM

Most likely they're moving to EN8190 encoders.

"Tandberg also introduced the EN8190 HD encoder, an MPEG-4 4:2:0 product aimed at direct-to-home (DTH) satellite applications as well as the IPTV market. Goldman says the EN8190 represents a 20-25% improvement in bit-rate efficiency over the company's previous MPEG-4 4:2:0 model, enough for a DTH operator to add one more HD channel per satellite transponder. Tandberg was demonstrating the EN8190 delivering six HD channels in 30 Mbps of bandwidth using its statistical multiplexing technology."


SWEET! :D

#30 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 10:17 PM

SWEET! :D

Also to be clear, that quote was from late 2009, but after the D10/D11 buildouts, and probably also too late for D12.

#31 OFFLINE   bobnielsen

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:01 PM

Also to be clear, that quote was from late 2009, but after the D10/D11 buildouts, and probably also too late for D12.


Since the encoders are installed at the uplink facilities, what does that have to to with the satellite transponders (possibly bandwidth/linearity?)

#32 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:06 PM

And looks like Tandberg is a part of Ericsson now ...

Edited by P Smith, 03 June 2012 - 10:19 AM.


#33 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:36 PM

http://www.satcomres...-Encoder-Module

Call for a price however without knowing all of the encoding licenses you'll only get a ballpark.

Here's more info on the encoder and Ericson/Tandberg.

http://www.pressrele...on-launches-ibc

#34 OFFLINE   Racer88

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:52 PM

Since the encoders are installed at the uplink facilities, what does that have to to with the satellite transponders (possibly bandwidth/linearity?)


Yeah that kinda stumped me too. :confused: You guys certainly know a lot more about this than I do, but from skimming the technologies being talked about it seems to me more about increasing the efficiency and robustness of the datastreams being sent than anything else. IOW less bits and bytes used for error correction and such, means more room for bits and bytes that are actual content.

Anywho the encoders are available, and have been for ~3 years, obviously. In comibination with DVB-S2, which apparently DirecTV also has, it would seem 6 channels per TP are pretty much a done deal given the evidence that's already presented itself. Add in the Erricson PREKOR technology, no idea if DirecTV has that, then it's possibly up to 8 channels per TP even.

Edited by Racer88, 03 June 2012 - 12:17 AM.


#35 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:38 AM

Since the encoders are installed at the uplink facilities, what does that have to to with the satellite transponders (possibly bandwidth/linearity?)


I think the point was that they had bought the encoders for use with the new satelites before this new encoder was on the market, so that's why they didn't start off with these encoders, and instead will need to replace their existing encoders to upgrade. They would not have waited to launch channels to get new encoders.

#36 OFFLINE   Racer88

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:42 AM

Oh yeah, duh, that makes perfect sense now. hehe

Per this article
http://www.multichan...ic_Encoders.php

It would seem that maybe their long standing encoder provider Harmonic Inc. may be the best first place to look for whatever new solution it is that they are using.
http://www.harmonici...st-encoding.cfm

Their relatively new Electra 9000 supports broadcast, mobile, and web services so that seems to fit DirecTV Everywhere too.

Edited by Racer88, 03 June 2012 - 02:03 AM.


#37 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 08:41 AM

Here's an old thread which starts with an article on a $9M deal with Tandberg:

http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=142783


I'm also thinking that I may create a new thread for this discussion, since we don't usually use this thread for discussion.

#38 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 06:52 AM

A place for discussion of the technical aspects from the DirecTV National HD Listings/Maps thread ....

From: http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=172899

Edited by Sixto, 03 June 2012 - 08:59 AM.


#39 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 09:15 AM

Now that the clean-up is complete, and we're in this new thread.

The point of this discussion is that DirecTV has both Harmonic and Tandberg encoders.

Most of the technology (on the ground) was deployed prior to the launches of D10, D11, and D12.

There is now latest-and-greatest technology that provides for better use of the bandwidth. As an example, the Tandberg EN8190 encoders:

"Tandberg also introduced the EN8190 HD encoder, an MPEG-4 4:2:0 product aimed at direct-to-home (DTH) satellite applications as well as the IPTV market. Goldman says the EN8190 represents a 20-25% improvement in bit-rate efficiency over the company's previous MPEG-4 4:2:0 model, enough for a DTH operator to add one more HD channel per satellite transponder. Tandberg was demonstrating the EN8190 delivering six HD channels in 30 Mbps of bandwidth using its statistical multiplexing technology."


In order to utilize the new technology, it would require an investment, which it appears that DirecTV may be embarking on with the recent addition of TruTV HD and E! HD as a 6th HD channel on two transponders.

#40 OFFLINE   bobnielsen

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:47 AM

It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about Directv already having 6 HD channels per transponder on some of the spotbeams (or does my memory fail me, which is certainly a possibility at my age?)

#41 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:51 AM

It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about Directv already having 6 HD channels per transponder on some of the spotbeams (or does my memory fail me, which is certainly a possibility at my age?)


Worth a look. I usually don't look at the locals very often but that's certainly possible, especially if they've been using the latest encoders on the new local launches.

#42 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:39 AM

It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about Directv already having 6 HD channels per transponder on some of the spotbeams (or does my memory fail me, which is certainly a possibility at my age?)


Your memory is good enough to bring the fact, as for details - look at gct's historical threads.

#43 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:52 PM

Don't forget the rest of the world, there is more then just DIRECTV and Dish out there needing hardware like this.

Recognizing the much of the rest of the planet receives their regular programming via satellite is something that many American's obviously can't get their heads around.

There are surely much more than a handful as James suggests. Some of them may be cooperating to share the equipment but there's doubtless hundreds of channels that are being multiplexed every day.
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#44 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:05 PM

In order to utilize the new technology, it would require an investment, which it appears that DirecTV may be embarking on with the recent addition of TruTV HD and E! HD as a 6th HD channel on two transponders.

It is probably notable that the Tandberg EN8190 is an encoder module as opposed to a monolithic piece of equipment.

While modular doesn't always mean cheaper, somebody is saving some money by not including a rack mount enclosure.
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#45 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:28 PM

Recognizing the much of the rest of the planet receives their regular programming via satellite is something that many American's obviously can't get their heads around.

Perhaps the uniqueness of the American broadcast market is something that some pundits choose to ignore.

Name one other satellite broadcaster other than DISH or DirecTV that has to deal with over 1700 full power licensed stations plus nearly 500 lower power Class A stations. Just because those stations are not all on ConUS beams does not mean they do not need an encoder for each transponder - plus encoders at each point of presence to backhaul the signal to the DBS uplinks.

There are surely much more than a handful as James suggests. Some of them may be cooperating to share the equipment but there's doubtless hundreds of channels that are being multiplexed every day.

Try reading. I said "and one can count on one hand the number of companies trying to multiplex multiple HD streams on dozens of transponders. At the level DBS providers are doing it, you could probably count it on two thumbs".

As previously stated, no company needing a multiplexer is dealing with the number of transponders DISH and DirecTV individually deal with. I was thinking US ... perhaps you'll need the second hand to count other providers worldwide that do "dozens" of transponders ... of HD. I doubt you'll find any system with the HD transponder count of DISH or DirecTV.

I have no doubt that there are hundreds of companies multiplexing a handful of their channels for distribution. No one is doing it on the scale of DISH and DirecTV. Add the "hundreds" of small companies to the hundreds of encoders DISH and DirecTV need and it still is not a huge marketplace.

As I said before:
We are practically talking about individually built devices ... not cheap mass production runs of 10s of thousands or millions. And to get it right with industrial quality it is expensive. $100k each isn't out of the ballpark for such a complicated device.

#46 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:55 AM

It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about Directv already having 6 HD channels per transponder on some of the spotbeams (or does my memory fail me, which is certainly a possibility at my age?)


Well... if so, you can consider me pleased to read that.

DirecTV currently offers NBC, PBS, FOX, and CBS in HD, and ABC, The CW, and an Independent in SD. PBS is on a separate transponder, meaning there are THREE HD feeds and three SD feeds. If they can fit 6 HD channels on a transponder, that means that they can (theoretically) add ABC in HD, and still have room left over in case The CW EVER offers an HD feed to CW Plus stations and my local affiliate takes advantage of it and upgrades to HD, still leaving room to potentially add the SD MyNetworkTV affiliate.

Then again, my market probably isn't worth the expense... :(

~Alan

#47 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:00 AM

That brings up a thought though...

With the HD-LiL markets added last year, and the ones coming this year, I wonder if DirecTV already had enough older encoders to offer them, or if they thought, "Hey! Let's offer these smaller markets locals with our older encoders and upgrade the national/CONUS channels to the newer encoders."

~Alan

#48 ONLINE   cypherx

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:05 AM

I know the encoders cost a crapload of money but I wonder what the annual support contracts run them per device?

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#49 OFFLINE   charlie460

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:58 AM

So, is the consensus that with this new hardware there will really be no noticable difference in quality even when squeezing 6 HD channels in one transponder?

#50 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 12:14 PM

So, is the consensus that with this new hardware there will really be no noticable difference in quality even when squeezing 6 HD channels in one transponder?

Yes.




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