Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

DirecTV National HD Listing/Maps Discussion Thread (Technical - Not Anticipation)


  • Please log in to reply
652 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   Sixto

Sixto

    Hall Of Fame

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 11,967 posts
Joined: Nov 17, 2005

Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:51 AM

It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about Directv already having 6 HD channels per transponder on some of the spotbeams (or does my memory fail me, which is certainly a possibility at my age?)


Worth a look. I usually don't look at the locals very often but that's certainly possible, especially if they've been using the latest encoders on the new local launches.
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#42 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,761 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:39 AM

It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about Directv already having 6 HD channels per transponder on some of the spotbeams (or does my memory fail me, which is certainly a possibility at my age?)


Your memory is good enough to bring the fact, as for details - look at gct's historical threads.

#43 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 18,568 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:52 PM

Don't forget the rest of the world, there is more then just DIRECTV and Dish out there needing hardware like this.

Recognizing the much of the rest of the planet receives their regular programming via satellite is something that many American's obviously can't get their heads around.

There are surely much more than a handful as James suggests. Some of them may be cooperating to share the equipment but there's doubtless hundreds of channels that are being multiplexed every day.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#44 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 18,568 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:05 PM

In order to utilize the new technology, it would require an investment, which it appears that DirecTV may be embarking on with the recent addition of TruTV HD and E! HD as a 6th HD channel on two transponders.

It is probably notable that the Tandberg EN8190 is an encoder module as opposed to a monolithic piece of equipment.

While modular doesn't always mean cheaper, somebody is saving some money by not including a rack mount enclosure.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#45 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 39,588 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:28 PM

Recognizing the much of the rest of the planet receives their regular programming via satellite is something that many American's obviously can't get their heads around.

Perhaps the uniqueness of the American broadcast market is something that some pundits choose to ignore.

Name one other satellite broadcaster other than DISH or DirecTV that has to deal with over 1700 full power licensed stations plus nearly 500 lower power Class A stations. Just because those stations are not all on ConUS beams does not mean they do not need an encoder for each transponder - plus encoders at each point of presence to backhaul the signal to the DBS uplinks.

There are surely much more than a handful as James suggests. Some of them may be cooperating to share the equipment but there's doubtless hundreds of channels that are being multiplexed every day.

Try reading. I said "and one can count on one hand the number of companies trying to multiplex multiple HD streams on dozens of transponders. At the level DBS providers are doing it, you could probably count it on two thumbs".

As previously stated, no company needing a multiplexer is dealing with the number of transponders DISH and DirecTV individually deal with. I was thinking US ... perhaps you'll need the second hand to count other providers worldwide that do "dozens" of transponders ... of HD. I doubt you'll find any system with the HD transponder count of DISH or DirecTV.

I have no doubt that there are hundreds of companies multiplexing a handful of their channels for distribution. No one is doing it on the scale of DISH and DirecTV. Add the "hundreds" of small companies to the hundreds of encoders DISH and DirecTV need and it still is not a huge marketplace.

As I said before:
We are practically talking about individually built devices ... not cheap mass production runs of 10s of thousands or millions. And to get it right with industrial quality it is expensive. $100k each isn't out of the ballpark for such a complicated device.

#46 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon

    Chancellor

  • Registered
  • 8,743 posts
  • LocationDawson, Georgia
Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:55 AM

It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about Directv already having 6 HD channels per transponder on some of the spotbeams (or does my memory fail me, which is certainly a possibility at my age?)


Well... if so, you can consider me pleased to read that.

DirecTV currently offers NBC, PBS, FOX, and CBS in HD, and ABC, The CW, and an Independent in SD. PBS is on a separate transponder, meaning there are THREE HD feeds and three SD feeds. If they can fit 6 HD channels on a transponder, that means that they can (theoretically) add ABC in HD, and still have room left over in case The CW EVER offers an HD feed to CW Plus stations and my local affiliate takes advantage of it and upgrades to HD, still leaving room to potentially add the SD MyNetworkTV affiliate.

Then again, my market probably isn't worth the expense... :(

~Alan

#47 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon

    Chancellor

  • Registered
  • 8,743 posts
  • LocationDawson, Georgia
Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:00 AM

That brings up a thought though...

With the HD-LiL markets added last year, and the ones coming this year, I wonder if DirecTV already had enough older encoders to offer them, or if they thought, "Hey! Let's offer these smaller markets locals with our older encoders and upgrade the national/CONUS channels to the newer encoders."

~Alan

#48 OFFLINE   cypherx

cypherx

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,758 posts
  • LocationPA - Berks County
Joined: Aug 27, 2010

Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:05 AM

I know the encoders cost a crapload of money but I wonder what the annual support contracts run them per device?

- > Link to my setup thread< -

My  DirecTV HD WISHLIST:  NickJR, Nicktoons, Revolt.TV, FXM, We, Oxygen, The Hub, Fuse, GSN, Sprout, GAC, Esquire, MTV2, BBC World News, Ovation, Reelz , Sundance, Up, Music Choice Play HD (formerly SWRV), Al Jazeera America, Military Channel, NASA

My DirecTV SD WISHLIST: MTV Hits, MTV Jams, Music Choice, Youtoo TV

 

---
HR24-200
H24-200


#49 OFFLINE   charlie460

charlie460

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 382 posts
Joined: Sep 12, 2009

Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:58 AM

So, is the consensus that with this new hardware there will really be no noticable difference in quality even when squeezing 6 HD channels in one transponder?

#50 OFFLINE   Sixto

Sixto

    Hall Of Fame

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 11,967 posts
Joined: Nov 17, 2005

Posted 04 June 2012 - 12:14 PM

So, is the consensus that with this new hardware there will really be no noticable difference in quality even when squeezing 6 HD channels in one transponder?

Yes.
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)

#51 OFFLINE   yosoyellobo

yosoyellobo

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,787 posts
Joined: Nov 01, 2006

Posted 04 June 2012 - 12:19 PM

Bottom line. How many new HD channel would be possible with all new encoders.

#52 OFFLINE   charlie460

charlie460

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 382 posts
Joined: Sep 12, 2009

Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:01 PM

Yes.


Sounds good to me. This sort of stuff worries me as I'm picky when it comes to picture quality (which DirecTV has been good for me so far), but if there's no noticable difference I'm happy.

#53 OFFLINE   Sixto

Sixto

    Hall Of Fame

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 11,967 posts
Joined: Nov 17, 2005

Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:10 PM

Bottom line. How many new HD channel would be possible with all new encoders.

There are currently 44 HD transponders, with 38 being used for linear HD.

D10 has 14, D11 has 14, D12 has 16 with 10 used for national HD today.
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)

#54 OFFLINE   TBoneit

TBoneit

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,275 posts
Joined: Jul 27, 2006

Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:49 PM

Probably, must be, cheaper to change encoders than to add a location and satellite to be able to add transponders. and swap everybody's dish out. Less lead time than a new satellite and launch window.

Only so many transponders licensed per location so adding one new HD channel per current transponder has to be cheaper.

And lets not even go into losing a encoder is not near as bad as losing a transponder. You can not go up to the satellite and fix a dead transponder, OTOH you can swap in a spare encoder easily.
Remember when your kids were the TV set's remote control?

#55 OFFLINE   georule

georule

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,585 posts
Joined: Mar 31, 2010

Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:10 PM

I'm still trying to get my head around this new encoder thing. This is still standard MPEG4, but more efficient? Does it put more of a load on the STB to decode as well? I'd think it'd have to, yet if it is still complying with the MPEG4 standard, presumably any MPEG4-rated STB should be able to decode it?

Which sort of makes me wonder if the rather thorough rewrite of the STB software might have been about more than just the UI. . . optimizing the mpeg4 decode path and providing more head-room for mpeg4 decode load?
LR(non-CE): HR44, Mits 65C9; Office/FR (CE): HR22-100 + AM21, Mits 60737 + Mits 3DA1 3D adapter. Spare bedroom (non-CE), HR23. Genie WHDVR, wireless networking (yay!)

#56 OFFLINE   Justin85

Justin85

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 118 posts
Joined: Jun 16, 2010

Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:12 PM

So, is the consensus that with this new hardware there will really be no noticable difference in quality even when squeezing 6 HD channels in one transponder?


Yes.


So, it was stated above (unless I'm confused) that we have 30Mbps per transponder. Adding a 6th feed with bring us down to 5Mbps per feed... U-Verse level compression. If this is true, how does DirecTV plan to deliver the same channel, in the same bandwidth as U-Verse, but have no change in image quality?

#57 OFFLINE   Racer88

Racer88

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 801 posts
Joined: Sep 12, 2006

Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:24 PM

Probably, must be, cheaper to change encoders than to add a location and satellite to be able to add transponders. and swap everybody's dish out. Less lead time than a new satellite and launch window.

Only so many transponders licensed per location so adding one new HD channel per current transponder has to be cheaper.

And lets not even go into losing a encoder is not near as bad as losing a transponder. You can not go up to the satellite and fix a dead transponder, OTOH you can swap in a spare encoder easily.


Yep it would seem any terrestrial based means of increasing the amount of content they're able to deliver has got to be the most desirable of all other possible solutions.

#58 OFFLINE   Sixto

Sixto

    Hall Of Fame

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 11,967 posts
Joined: Nov 17, 2005

Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:26 PM

So, it was stated above (unless I'm confused) that we have 30Mbps per transponder. Adding a 6th feed with bring us down to 5Mbps per feed... U-Verse level compression. If this is true, how does DirecTV plan to deliver the same channel, in the same bandwidth as U-Verse, but have no change in image quality?

Just relaying what we read in the Tandberg press release: "As part of a TANDBERG Television HD solution, the EN8190 encoder enables an additional HD channel per transponder for satellite operators when compared to alternative compression solutions."
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)

#59 OFFLINE   georule

georule

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,585 posts
Joined: Mar 31, 2010

Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:32 PM

Compressed bits and uncompressed bits don't have to turn out the same with different providers, depending on the quality of the hardware and software that compressed and uncompressed them. Your typical competitive bandwidth analysis assumes equality on that point. . . but it doesn't have to be so.

I'm still somewhat dubious, but apparently D* is already using it on a couple transponders, and I haven't yet seen any of DBSTalk's many, MANY IQ hawks raise any red flags yet. I feel pretty sure they would.
LR(non-CE): HR44, Mits 65C9; Office/FR (CE): HR22-100 + AM21, Mits 60737 + Mits 3DA1 3D adapter. Spare bedroom (non-CE), HR23. Genie WHDVR, wireless networking (yay!)

#60 OFFLINE   Sixto

Sixto

    Hall Of Fame

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 11,967 posts
Joined: Nov 17, 2005

Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:34 PM

Or everyone can go check out the following channels ...

Both these transponders have 6 HD right now:
D11  3 FT  246 TRUTVHD 1060 
D11  3 FT  397 ABCwHD  1030
D11  3 FT  549 EXTRHD  1040 
D11  3 FT  649 SPSOHD  1050 
D11  3 FT  681 ALTHD   1010 
D11  3 FT  686 FSAZHD  1020 

D12 15 FT  236 E!HD    1060
D12 15 FT  254 AMCHD   1030 
D12 15 FT  307 WGNHD   1020 
D12 15 FT  521 WMAXHD  1050 
D12 15 FT  548 SHO3HD  1010
D12 15 FT  619 FSCHD   1040

DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)




spam firewall