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DirecTV National HD Listing/Maps Discussion Thread (Technical - Not Anticipation)


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#61 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:35 PM

Compressed bits and uncompressed bits don't have to turn out the same, depending on the quality of the hardware and software that compressed and uncompressed them. Your typical competitive bandwidth analysis assumes equality on that point. . . but it doesn't have to be so.

I'm still somewhat dubious, but apparently D* is already using it on a couple transponders, and I haven't yet seen any of DBSTalk's many, MANY IQ hawks raise any red flags yet. I feel pretty sure they would.

Yep, we think alike ... just posted those two transponders.
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
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#62 OFFLINE   georule

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:53 PM

Yep, we think alike ... just posted those two transponders.


In fact, there is a general consensus that AMCHD got noticeably better a little while back, some months post-launch on D*. Dunno if it is related.

I still think there'd have to be extra load on the STBs too. Whether that be more processing cycles, or more memory usage for mpeg4 decode, or both. Which makes me wonder if the STB client rewrite was also an enabling, moving part here.
LR(non-CE): HR44, Mits 65C9; Office/FR (CE): HR22-100 + AM21, Mits 60737 + Mits 3DA1 3D adapter. Spare bedroom (non-CE), HR23. Genie WHDVR, wireless networking (yay!)

#63 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 04:56 PM

In fact, there is a general consensus that AMCHD got noticeably better a little while back, some months post-launch on D*. Dunno if it is related.

There was a presentation that I found over the weekend from a Tandberg engineer that showed the technology progress, just not finding it again right now.
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)

#64 OFFLINE   Racer88

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:18 PM

In fact, there is a general consensus that AMCHD got noticeably better a little while back, some months post-launch on D*. Dunno if it is related.

I still think there'd have to be extra load on the STBs too. Whether that be more processing cycles, or more memory usage for mpeg4 decode, or both. Which makes me wonder if the STB client rewrite was also an enabling, moving part here.


Hey, I've got a back log of Mad Men eps going back to January so I should be able to make that comparison. Though it'll likely spoil something for me LOL.

Maybe I can find a rerun of one the older eps to compare with my older ones.

EDIT: Ha, there's and upcoming rerun of the ep "Maidenform" for which I have a pre E! HD recording of. Of course there's really no way to know at what point they reconfigured the enconders in anticipation of adding E! HD

Edited by Racer88, 04 June 2012 - 05:29 PM.


#65 OFFLINE   Justin85

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:24 PM

I'm not trying to say the sky is falling, and PQ will be terrible. I've not noticed any major change. I noticed a couple days ago while watching HGTV that it appeared slightly grainy, but I'm sure that was an HGTV problem.

I mostly just wonder how D* can stream 5Mbps HD streams and them look so good compared to the VERY obviously bit starved U-Verse streams that are 5-6Mbps. I compare them directly due to AT&T being the provider I left when I switched to DirecTV.

#66 ONLINE   charlie460

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:27 PM

Is D* really only using 5 Mbps streams? 1080i sports at 5 Mbps surely can't look good, regardless of what encoders they're using.

#67 OFFLINE   Justin85

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:29 PM

Is D* really only using 5 Mbps streams? 1080i sports at 5 Mbps surely can't look good, regardless of what encoders they're using.


I have no way of proving one way or another, I based that completely off the info posted above.... but what you are saying is exactly what I was trying to say. IF it really is 30Mbps / 6 streams = 5Mpbs per stream, and it still look great, then I'm sure every provider would want those magical encoders!

#68 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:29 PM

I'm not trying to say the sky is falling, and PQ will be terrible. I've not noticed any major change. I noticed a couple days ago while watching HGTV that it appeared slightly grainy, but I'm sure that was an HGTV problem.

I mostly just wonder how D* can stream 5Mbps HD streams and them look so good compared to the VERY obviously bit starved U-Verse streams that are 5-6Mbps. I compare them directly due to AT&T being the provider I left when I switched to DirecTV.


Directv does not have the HD streams limits. Also I think that 1 satellite transponder has the same bandwidth that att has for the link to each house to put TV + HSI over.
I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#69 OFFLINE   georule

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:32 PM

Found this presentation, which I found interesting (8190 towards the end, but some interesting comparisons on advances in mpeg2 encoding as well in the front).

Dunno if it is the one Sixto had in mind upstream: http://www.globecomm...cson-Wagner.pdf
LR(non-CE): HR44, Mits 65C9; Office/FR (CE): HR22-100 + AM21, Mits 60737 + Mits 3DA1 3D adapter. Spare bedroom (non-CE), HR23. Genie WHDVR, wireless networking (yay!)

#70 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:47 PM

Found this presentation, which I found interesting (8190 towards the end, but some interesting comparisons on advances in mpeg2 encoding as well in the front).

Dunno if it is the one Sixto had in mind upstream: http://www.globecomm...cson-Wagner.pdf


Great. Thanks. Yep, that is the link that I was looking for.
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
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#71 OFFLINE   Go Beavs

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:48 PM

So in the Portland, OR DMA, we've had 7 channels on one transponder (103(s) tpn 21) since I started checking the tpn maps 3-4 years ago. We added another one a month or two ago for 8 active channels with a 9th in test. So, that's 9 HD channels on one tpn! :eek2:

I guessing they are using different modulation for those spot beams to gain some bandwidth but I would think they have to be using better encoders to fit 9 channels in there. Also, I see no perceivable difference in PQ between SAT delivered locals and the OTA version through my AM21.

Whatever they're doing, it's working IMHO.

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#72 OFFLINE   georule

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 05:53 PM

Great. Thanks. Yep, that is the link that I was looking for.


Interesting observation from the presentation --it does better (savings-wise vs previous generations) with 720p and "complex material". To me, the classic example of "complex" is fast moving sports where a large portion of the screen is always in motion.

The flip side of that is that even with an unlimited budget to upgrade (not likely!), their mix of channels might (probably?) limits them to something less than getting a full 44 worth of HD channels extra bandwidth in this manner. Of course, I'd settle for another 10-15 pretty happily. :)

Edited by georule, 04 June 2012 - 06:01 PM.

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#73 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 06:05 PM

There are many factors that can go into PQ other than bandwidth. Consider it like horsepower. The more you have will make things better but there are also ways to make something just as good with less by being more efficient or having new technology go in. Better encoding, less error correction bandwidth needed, new algorithms to make it faster to decode all of this can get tied in.
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#74 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:26 PM

I think the Ka transponders are more like 40-44 mbps not 30.
If it's 40mbps 6 HD's would be 6.6 mbps. 5 HD's 8 mbps.
If it's 44mbps 6 HD's woiuld be 7.3 mbps. 5 HD's 8.8 mbps.

Dish Network has some tpn's with 7 or 8 HD's on it. I'm pretty sure those occur on Ku band satellites and they also use turbo fec and 8psk modulation. Since Ku is less susceptible to rain fade they can lighten up on forward error correction and use more robust modulation schemes to get better throughput per transponder. Were talking 60-70mbps per transponder. If DirecTV had the luxury of using Ku for its newest birds, they could of used more efficient modulation and error correction too.

On cable where they have 6 MHz "channels" to deal with, a 256QAM channel yields 38.8mbps usable data rate. In the past few years improvements in encoder design allowed them to go from 2 HD's to 3 HD's per QAM. That's 12.93 mbps but keep in mind that is MPEG2 still. AMC networks goes one step further and packages 4 HD channels in MPEG2 to fit in one QAM (9.7 mbps for AMC, Fuse, IFC, We HD) (Galaxy 14 tp2).

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My  DirecTV HD WISHLIST:  NickJR, Nicktoons, Revolt.TV, FXM, We, Oxygen, The Hub, Fuse, GSN, Sprout, GAC, Esquire, MTV2, BBC World News, Ovation, Reelz , Sundance, Up, Music Choice Play HD (formerly SWRV), Al Jazeera America, Military Channel, NASA

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#75 ONLINE   charlie460

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:03 PM

And thus AMC HD looks bad on all providers, the source feed averages 8-9 Mbps because they're squeezing all 4 Rainbow Media networks on one transponder.

#76 OFFLINE   Racer88

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:14 PM

Actual throughput, in Mbps, using all the latest and greatest stuff can far surpass that stated 30 Mbps. If I'm correctly reading some of the stuff I've been reading.

What it said was they DEMONSTRATED 6 HD channels in a 30 Mbps stream. I'm pretty sure that in no way means, or should be understood as, the limit to the throughput on each DirecTV transponder. (or pretty much any other application for that matter)

#77 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:25 PM

Real numbers are here http://www.dbstalk.c...&postcount=1200

#78 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:41 AM

And thus AMC HD looks bad on all providers, the source feed averages 8-9 Mbps because they're squeezing all 4 Rainbow Media networks on one transponder.


Which is why "bandwidth" is no excuse for DirecTV not having Fuse, IFC and We HD in addition to the currently carried AMC HD. Since all 4 are already in a very tight small footprint payload.

Wouldn't be a surprise if the other 3 "amc networks" end up in HD on DirecTV at some point. I would actually really enjoy those additions too. Compressed or not, they still would look FAR better than overcompressed SD like they are now.

- > Link to my setup thread< -

My  DirecTV HD WISHLIST:  NickJR, Nicktoons, Revolt.TV, FXM, We, Oxygen, The Hub, Fuse, GSN, Sprout, GAC, Esquire, MTV2, BBC World News, Ovation, Reelz , Sundance, Up, Music Choice Play HD (formerly SWRV), Al Jazeera America, Military Channel, NASA

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#79 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:48 AM

Real numbers are here http://www.dbstalk.c...&postcount=1200


Thank you.

Ka, DVB-S2D, SR 30 Msps:
QPSK 3/5 35 Mbps
QPSK 2/3 39 Mbps
QPSK 4/5 47 Mbps
8PSK 3/5 52 Mbps


8PSK 2/3 is how Dish Network is getting sometimes 10 HD per transponder. See Tp1 on Echostar 3 for example: http://sathint.com/echostar-3

Though they have the luxury of a Ku band license at that location, therefore 8PSK with turbo coded FEC (2/3 instead of 3/5) is how they have much more bandwidth per transponder. If DirecTV tried 8PSK on Ka band, I'm pretty sure the rain fade would be even worse. Oh well DirecTV has to work with the cards they are dealt. Just because someone is born with a disability doesn't mean they can't live a normal life.

- > Link to my setup thread< -

My  DirecTV HD WISHLIST:  NickJR, Nicktoons, Revolt.TV, FXM, We, Oxygen, The Hub, Fuse, GSN, Sprout, GAC, Esquire, MTV2, BBC World News, Ovation, Reelz , Sundance, Up, Music Choice Play HD (formerly SWRV), Al Jazeera America, Military Channel, NASA

My DirecTV SD WISHLIST: MTV Hits, MTV Jams, Music Choice, Youtoo TV

 

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#80 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:07 AM

Name one other satellite broadcaster other than DISH or DirecTV that has to deal with over 1700 full power licensed stations plus nearly 500 lower power Class A stations. Just because those stations are not all on ConUS beams does not mean they do not need an encoder for each transponder - plus encoders at each point of presence to backhaul the signal to the DBS uplinks.

It sounds like you're making a case for the idea that between DISH and DIRECTV, they've created their own economy of scale.

I'm not asserting that they're not the biggest, just that they don't represent the gamut.

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