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DirecTV National HD Listing/Maps Discussion Thread (Technical - Not Anticipation)


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#81 OFFLINE   dexware

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:38 AM

Thank you.

Ka, DVB-S2D, SR 30 Msps:
QPSK 3/5 35 Mbps
QPSK 2/3 39 Mbps
QPSK 4/5 47 Mbps
8PSK 3/5 52 Mbps


8PSK 2/3 is how Dish Network is getting sometimes 10 HD per transponder. See Tp1 on Echostar 3 for example: http://sathint.com/echostar-3

Though they have the luxury of a Ku band license at that location, therefore 8PSK with turbo coded FEC (2/3 instead of 3/5) is how they have much more bandwidth per transponder. If DirecTV tried 8PSK on Ka band, I'm pretty sure the rain fade would be even worse. Oh well DirecTV has to work with the cards they are dealt. Just because someone is born with a disability doesn't mean they can't live a normal life.


Dish's 8PSK 21500 2/3 modulation gives them around 40-41 megabits of transport.

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#82 OFFLINE   TBoneit

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:58 AM

In fact, there is a general consensus that AMCHD got noticeably better a little while back, some months post-launch on D*. Dunno if it is related.

I still think there'd have to be extra load on the STBs too. Whether that be more processing cycles, or more memory usage for mpeg4 decode, or both. Which makes me wonder if the STB client rewrite was also an enabling, moving part here.


I'm still trying to get my head around this new encoder thing. This is still standard MPEG4, but more efficient? Does it put more of a load on the STB to decode as well? I'd think it'd have to, yet if it is still complying with the MPEG4 standard, presumably any MPEG4-rated STB should be able to decode it?

Which sort of makes me wonder if the rather thorough rewrite of the STB software might have been about more than just the UI. . . optimizing the mpeg4 decode path and providing more head-room for mpeg4 decode load?


It was my impression that the MPEG4 decoding is all done in hardware. That the older MPEG2 was also decoded in hardware.

These DVRS used by either service do not have the CPU power to decode in software. I have a I3 based computer that can barely handle 1080i.

The Processors in the DVRs only have to handle things like the timers, Remote keypress, and the guide (DVR content) and then hand it off to the proper hardware to do the actual functions.
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#83 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:37 AM

There are many factors that can go into PQ other than bandwidth. Consider it like horsepower. The more you have will make things better but there are also ways to make something just as good with less by being more efficient or having new technology go in. Better encoding, less error correction bandwidth needed, new algorithms to make it faster to decode all of this can get tied in.


+1

And thus AMC HD looks bad on all providers, the source feed averages 8-9 Mbps because they're squeezing all 4 Rainbow Media networks on one transponder.


AMC HD does not look bad to me. Could it look better? Sure... but that goes for all the channels...

Which is why "bandwidth" is no excuse for DirecTV not having Fuse, IFC and We HD in addition to the currently carried AMC HD. Since all 4 are already in a very tight small footprint payload.


The anemic bandwidth given to the networks might mean that they could be easier to fit in, but they still take up space.

~Alan

#84 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:00 AM

Tested for a week and know gone:

http://www.dbstalk.c...587#post3029587


DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)

#85 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:19 AM

AMC looks softer than most other HD broadcasts. Can all be better? Sure.

Right now on NBC, which usually has a very good HD broadcast, the picture is extremely soft- as they're showing a feed from the UK- some Jubilee stuff- obviously very compressed somewhere along the line, though it is their own feed.
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#86 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:36 AM

AMC looks softer than most other HD broadcasts. Can all be better? Sure.

Right now on NBC, which usually has a very good HD broadcast, the picture is extremely soft- as they're showing a feed from the UK- some Jubilee stuff- obviously very compressed somewhere along the line, though it is their own feed.


AMC's airings of "Mad Men" and "The Walking Dead" look very soft compared to the Blu-ray versions... which is to be expected of any program, but especially so when one is dealing with a show that features a good amount of "grain" in the film stock, or noise in the digital capture. The Blu-ray's higher compression is able to render it more accurately...

However, "Hell On Wheels" which appeared to be shot digitally and had pretty much zero noise, looked amazing on DirecTV.

It all depends on the content.

~Alan

#87 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:40 AM

Tested for a week and know gone:

http://www.dbstalk.c...587#post3029587


Personally, I've learned to temper my excitement, so I didn't want to get my hopes up over something that could have been additional PUSH channels or the like... :rolleyes:


:(

~Alan

#88 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:46 AM

Thank you.

Ka, DVB-S2D, SR 30 Msps:
QPSK 3/5 35 Mbps
QPSK 2/3 39 Mbps
QPSK 4/5 47 Mbps
8PSK 3/5 52 Mbps


8PSK 2/3 is how Dish Network is getting sometimes 10 HD per transponder. See Tp1 on Echostar 3 for example: http://sathint.com/echostar-3

Though they have the luxury of a Ku band license at that location, therefore 8PSK with turbo coded FEC (2/3 instead of 3/5) is how they have much more bandwidth per transponder. If DirecTV tried 8PSK on Ka band, I'm pretty sure the rain fade would be even worse. Oh well DirecTV has to work with the cards they are dealt. Just because someone is born with a disability doesn't mean they can't live a normal life.

DTV is USING 8PSK for many Ka transponders.

#89 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:55 AM

DTV is USING 8PSK for many Ka transponders.


I honestly thought it was just QPSK. Any reason why there are more details on sathint and lynsat for Dish Network vs DirecTV?

I read that Dish Network uses "turbo coded FEC" which helps with efficiency. I don't think you can get away with that on Ka considering the different power and rain fade margins.

How wide is a Dish Network transponder vs DirecTV? They are getting 8 and sometimes 10 HD in one Tp.

- > Link to my setup thread< -

My  DirecTV HD WISHLIST:  NickJR, Nicktoons, Revolt.TV, FXM, We, Oxygen, The Hub, Fuse, GSN, Sprout, GAC, Esquire, MTV2, BBC World News, Ovation, Reelz , Sundance, Up, Music Choice Play HD (formerly SWRV), Al Jazeera America, Military Channel, NASA

My DirecTV SD WISHLIST: MTV Hits, MTV Jams, Music Choice, Youtoo TV

 

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#90 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:59 AM

AMC's airings of "Mad Men" and "The Walking Dead" look very soft compared to the Blu-ray versions... which is to be expected of any program, but especially so when one is dealing with a show that features a good amount of "grain" in the film stock, or noise in the digital capture. The Blu-ray's higher compression is able to render it more accurately...

It all depends on the content.


Most movies or shows that are broadcast look soft compared to Blu-ray!

But my comparison is AMC vs. most other 1080i broadcasts. I maintain that AMC is soft due to compression, bit-starving, whatever you wish to call it.

Content quality: Essential! And, as you say, variable. You can ruin a beautifully filmed movie by bit-starving or poor compression, but you can't make a badly filmed piece look great by putting it on Blu-ray or broadcasting it at high rates.
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#91 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:59 AM

How wide is a Dish Network transponder vs DirecTV?

Not that important - just stick with final bitrate, that is the metric to count channels and its individual bitrate [I wouldn't use the word "bandwidth") after statmux encoders.

We had a few posts asking about DTV 8PSK a few times, and I gave the answer a few times. How you missed that ? ;)

#92 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:17 AM

Not that important - just stick with final bitrate, that is the metric to count channels and its individual bitrate [I wouldn't use the word "bandwidth") after statmux encoders.

We had a few posts asking about DTV 8PSK a few times, and I gave the answer a few times. How you missed that ? ;)


Honestly there's so many acronyms I may of read something too quickly and easily mistaken QPSK for 8PSK (read fast it's only one character different). So yeah anything could of happened!

Perhaps it was 16PSK that was determined that at least for direct to home would be out of this question.

- > Link to my setup thread< -

My  DirecTV HD WISHLIST:  NickJR, Nicktoons, Revolt.TV, FXM, We, Oxygen, The Hub, Fuse, GSN, Sprout, GAC, Esquire, MTV2, BBC World News, Ovation, Reelz , Sundance, Up, Music Choice Play HD (formerly SWRV), Al Jazeera America, Military Channel, NASA

My DirecTV SD WISHLIST: MTV Hits, MTV Jams, Music Choice, Youtoo TV

 

---
HR24-200
H24-200


#93 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:28 AM

Most movies or shows that are broadcast look soft compared to Blu-ray!


Absolutely...

But my comparison is AMC vs. most other 1080i broadcasts. I maintain that AMC is soft due to compression, bit-starving, whatever you wish to call it.


I only watch original content on AMC, so the only other places I've been able to compare content is from Blu-ray. MM and TWD comparisons fare badly because of the styles of the individual shows. HOW had some AMAZING scenic shots on AMC-HD last year, which tells me that AMC-HD CAN look great... but it depends on the content.

I'm not arguing that a higher bit-rate can't improve the picture, I'm simply stating that AMC-HD (as it is) can be capable of great PQ if the content isn't too challenging.

~Alan

#94 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:35 AM

Here seems to be a pretty thorough calculator http://www.satellite...te/bitrates.htm but I'm not sure the answers to all the questions.

Just trying to figure out how Dish gets so many more channels per transponder.

- > Link to my setup thread< -

My  DirecTV HD WISHLIST:  NickJR, Nicktoons, Revolt.TV, FXM, We, Oxygen, The Hub, Fuse, GSN, Sprout, GAC, Esquire, MTV2, BBC World News, Ovation, Reelz , Sundance, Up, Music Choice Play HD (formerly SWRV), Al Jazeera America, Military Channel, NASA

My DirecTV SD WISHLIST: MTV Hits, MTV Jams, Music Choice, Youtoo TV

 

---
HR24-200
H24-200


#95 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:05 PM

I did post real bitrates - measured, not calculated.

#96 OFFLINE   Racer88

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:07 PM

Thank you.
Ka, DVB-S2D, SR 30 Msps:
QPSK 3/5 35 Mbps
QPSK 2/3 39 Mbps
QPSK 4/5 47 Mbps
8PSK 3/5 52 Mbps


So now the question is, how much of the 25% gain in channel capacity brought about by the new encoding techologies applies to these numbers. Something like 12.5% reduction in overhead(FEC, etc.) and 12.5% increase in overall throughput? More of one less of the other?

Is that somewhat in neighborhood of how it works?

#97 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:12 PM

I thought the 44 national HD transponders (D10/D11/D12) were QPSK 2/3 39 Mbps.

P, you agree?
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)

#98 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:46 PM

Umm, no - these are a mix of many different combinations. And changing sometimes.

#99 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:48 PM

So now the question is, how much of the 25% gain in channel capacity brought about by the new encoding techologies applies to these numbers. Something like 12.5% reduction in overhead(FEC, etc.) and 12.5% increase in overall throughput? More of one less of the other?

Is that somewhat in neighborhood of how it works?

And again - these numbers are BITRATE, mux bitrate.

#100 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:49 PM

Umm, no - these are a mix of many different combinations.

Hmmm, I'm just talking about the 14 on D10, 14 on D11, and 16 on D12. You thinking they are not all the same (QPSK 2/3)?
DirecTV: Genie, H25, CCK, GenioGo, SWiM-16 & SWiM-8, DECA to Gigabit Switch with FiOS (75/35)
FiOS: Roamio Pro's (2), Roamio Plus, Mini's (4) with Ultimate HD (My Roamio Thoughts)




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