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DirecTV National HD Listing/Maps Discussion Thread (Technical - Not Anticipation)


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#151 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:07 AM

What I'm curious about is what were these two transponders doing on D12 before and what will the freed up transponders on D10 going to be doing? If the reason for limited/slow rollout of new HD channels was due to bandwidth then I'd guess whatever D12 was doing with them will be migrated to D10. If these two transponders will be opened up now then why the need for new encoders if they have room for more channels without them?

Edited by RAD, 07 June 2012 - 09:12 AM.

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#152 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:11 AM

What I'm curious about is what were these two transponders doing on D12 before and what will the freed up transponders on D10 going to be doing? If the reason for limited/slow rollout of new HD channels was due to bandwidth then I'd guess whatever D12 was doing with them will be migrated to D10. If these two transponders will be opened up now then why the need for new encoders if they have too for more channels without them?

Yep, all good questions. I'm inclined to think that bandwidth will be less of an issue now for a while, but need to track this for a little while before getting too optimistic.

From watching these transponders for the past few years, they usually do things in phases, week-by-week, once per week.

We'll need to track this for a while, but it certainly is the most significant change in quite some time.
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#153 OFFLINE   shuye

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:36 AM

This might be wrong, but I see this as a similar process to de-fragging your hard drive. Directv is taking individual channels (file fragments) from different TP's (locations) and packaging them together into a more efficient group (6 HD or 6HD + 1SD) and placing them in a different location. They need a completly empty space (TP) to place this group into.

I know less about bandwith and how much each channel uses than most on this board, but it would seem to me that a 720p channel would use less than a 1080 channel, and a 720p channel with lots of action might use more than another 720p channel that does not. This would support the idea that they need to evaluate each channel and determine the optimum grouping of 6 or 6+1 together to place on a transponder to not loose any picture quality.

Hopefully we will see more of this in the next few weeks as they re-organize all of the channels.

#154 OFFLINE   georule

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:14 AM

As Sixto point outs, quarterly budgets likely come into play as well in purchasing new encoders. I don't know that I'd expect a straight, unbroken, week by week march thru the transponders.

Plus, if they really have the capability to add 44 more slots (which we're not entirely sure of, because the evidence is piling up they need the right mix of channels), why would you do that all at once when you don't have 44 channels of new content that needs to go there? Unless they got a great volume discount on the encoders.
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#155 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:47 AM

I can think of 44 missing HD channels


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#156 OFFLINE   georule

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:56 PM

I can think of 44 missing HD channels


What I'd really like to know is how many of those they already have contracts in place for, that they've been sitting on.

I'd think that most contracts negotiated in the last couple years would have "if and when" clauses already in them for HD that could be executed when D* wants to execute them. Certainly that would make sense to me anyway. At least for channels that already had HD before the last contract was executed.

I'd also be moderately careful about the 44 thing. . . we think we know that content mix is important, and it hasn't been proven yet that they can mix their channels in such a way to get all theoretical 44 extra out of them. Tho that they have a lot of sports programming should help.

Edited by georule, 07 June 2012 - 02:12 PM.

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#157 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:07 PM

What I'd really like to know is how many of those they already have contracts in place for, that they've been sitting on.

I'd think that most contracts negotiated in the last couple years would have "if and when" clauses already in them for HD that could be executed when D* wants to execute them. Certainly that would make sense to me anyway. At least for channels that already had HD before the last contract was executed.


Good point. But in addition to (possible/likely/certain) constraints on bandwidth, there's the 'wiring' up for HD, apparently pretty costly, and with technical limitations on just adding them willy-nilly. What I've read and surmised; have no direct knowledge on that.
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#158 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:10 PM

Lets try to keep the HD contracts stuff in the HD anticipation thread ...
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#159 OFFLINE   jmpfaff

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:50 PM

I know less about bandwith and how much each channel uses than most on this board, but it would seem to me that a 720p channel would use less than a 1080 channel


Can't say I know this factually, but I would expect 720p to use slightly more bandwidth than 1080i -- as 1080i is only sending 540 lines in each frame, while 720p sends 720 lines in each frame.

But regardless of which is bigger and which is smaller, the defrag concept of mixing the 1080i and 720p channels and the fast action channels with the slow action channels to get an optimal compression mix would seem to be a really smart thing to do whenever you had a chance to do it. And if so, kudos to DTV for investing the cycles in doing this!

PS -- Thanks Sixto for monitoring this for us on a regular basis!

#160 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:56 PM

Can't say I know this factually, but I would expect 720p to use slightly more bandwidth than 1080i -- as 1080i is only sending 540 lines in each frame, while 720p sends 720 lines in each frame.


720p is smaller, since its only using 1280 pixels per line, where 1080i is using 1920 per line.
(540*2)*1920=2,073,600 pixels vs 720*1280=921,600 pixels

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#161 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:32 PM

Can't say I know this factually, but I would expect 720p to use slightly more bandwidth than 1080i -- as 1080i is only sending 540 lines in each frame, while 720p sends 720 lines in each frame.

720p is smaller, since its only using 1280 pixels per line, where 1080i is using 1920 per line.
(540*2)*1920=2,073,600 pixels vs 720*1280=921,600 pixels

The frame rate varies ... 60 fields per second = 30 frames vs 60 frames per second. Time needs to be in the equation. 1080i is still bigger - but not as bigger as it appears without taking time into consideration.

#162 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:34 PM

Can't say I know this factually, but I would expect 720p to use slightly more bandwidth than 1080i -- as 1080i is only sending 540 lines in each frame, while 720p sends 720 lines in each frame.

But regardless of which is bigger and which is smaller, the defrag concept of mixing the 1080i and 720p channels and the fast action channels with the slow action channels to get an optimal compression mix would seem to be a really smart thing to do whenever you had a chance to do it. And if so, kudos to DTV for investing the cycles in doing this!

PS -- Thanks Sixto for monitoring this for us on a regular basis!

Bad count - you must take number of pixels per second.

Follow that URL in posts above - read PDF and you will get some real numbers (I recall seen 25% less for 720p vs 1080i).

Your 'defrag' analogy does not fit the into consideration of statistic multiplexing a few channels per one transponders. Try something else, more adequate.

#163 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:28 PM

With all the movement, updated the maps:

http://www.dbstalk.c...t.php?p=2366653


Will take another pass through tomorrow night, but it should be mostly complete.

As you can see, lots of free space.
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#164 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:57 PM

What I'm curious about is what were these two transponders doing on D12 before and what will the freed up transponders on D10 going to be doing? If the reason for limited/slow rollout of new HD channels was due to bandwidth then I'd guess whatever D12 was doing with them will be migrated to D10. If these two transponders will be opened up now then why the need for new encoders if they have room for more channels without them?


Maybe they want to prepare to add quite a few more channels, and they feel the best way to do that is to start by also upgrading encoders too, and so they are kind of showing both of those at the same time right now.

It is curios though that they haven't simply been using those two transponders for more ppv. That's something I would have expected them to do to be honest. I know I would fill every spare piece of bandwidth with it since it can't cost them anything but could gain them more money.

#165 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:06 PM

With all the movement, updated the maps:http://www.dbstalk.c...t.php?p=2366653

Will take another pass through tomorrow night, but it should be mostly complete.

As you can see, lots of free space.


Wow. If they could really get six per tpn then they have 54 slots available I do believe.

No matter how you look at it, there is more than 15 slots open right now without even upgrading encoders.

#166 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:20 PM

Wow. If they could really get six per tpn then they have 54 slots available I do believe.

No matter how you look at it, there is more than 15 slots open right now without even upgrading encoders.

D12 doesn't start at TP1. It's actually 44 total, but D12 TP20-24 have always been used for other purposes, thus it's more like 39.
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#167 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:36 PM

D12 doesn't start at TP1. It's actually 44 total, but D12 TP20-24 have always been used for other purposes, thus it's more like 39.


I was just counting channels on transponders in your charts, and how many you could add to get to six on each. Maybe I double counted a few rows.

#168 OFFLINE   georule

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:00 PM

We're also seeing the utility of having a couple spare unloaded transponders available with which to perform this kind of testing and shuffling of channels. I'd imagine they'd want to preserve that for this and other reasons.

But anyway, still lots more room than there was before seems to be in the process of being created, and that's a good thing.
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#169 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:52 PM

We're also seeing the utility of having a couple spare unloaded transponders available with which to perform this kind of testing and shuffling of channels. I'd imagine they'd want to preserve that for this and other reasons.

But anyway, still lots more room than there was before seems to be in the process of being created, and that's a good thing.

You missed, I did point a few times in a past - a lot of free 'space' been idling before last changes.

#170 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:11 AM

With all the movement, updated the maps:

http://www.dbstalk.c...t.php?p=2366653


Will take another pass through tomorrow night, but it should be mostly complete.

As you can see, lots of free space.


Minor point Sixto, but I guess you could add the LNB test channels for 103A odd and 103A even on chs. 9508, 9509 to D12's tps. 11 and 12 (according to gct's data).

#171 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:54 AM

With all the movement, updated the maps:

http://www.dbstalk.c...t.php?p=2366653


Will take another pass through tomorrow night, but it should be mostly complete.

As you can see, lots of free space.


Nice work!


Are you automatically getting those names from guide data? Just wondering why the inconsistencies naming the push channels..

IE "PUSH 6" vs "PUSH 24-5"

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#172 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 06:47 AM

Minor point Sixto, but I guess you could add the LNB test channels for 103A odd and 103A even on chs. 9508, 9509 to D12's tps. 11 and 12 (according to gct's data).

Yep, keep any comments coming. I thought I added those, but slacked off at the end.
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#173 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 06:57 AM

Nice work!


Are you automatically getting those names from guide data? Just wondering why the inconsistencies naming the push channels..

IE "PUSH 6" vs "PUSH 24-5"

For the push channels, I just used the data from the notes section listed in gct's spreadsheet. Everything else I use what I pull every day.
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#174 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:15 AM

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#175 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 10:22 AM

I have a nickname for "VC"...

Variable enCoding.

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