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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Save me a call to DTV -- do they still want HR20s back?


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135 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   raott

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:54 AM

People can dispose of them as they wish or keep them if they are still working. Best Buy does free electronics recycling as do a lot of mom and pop computer stores. One couldnt sell them as they are remaining leased in order to get out of circulation. There are many ways to dispose of electronics with little or no hassle


That is pretty fast and loose with any definition of a lease. Is there a new lease agreement to supersede the old one saying I can now throw it out, but cannot sell it?
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#42 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:37 PM

That is pretty fast and loose with any definition of a lease. Is there a new lease agreement to supersede the old one saying I can now throw it out, but cannot sell it?


The lease agreement doesn't state you can't throw it out. It states that if you don't return it when requested you will be charged a fee. Since these receivers won't ever be requested to be returned, now, there won't be a fee.
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#43 OFFLINE   Michael Hilley

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:25 PM

They wanted my HR20-100, but that was like a year and a half ago.:)

I suggest that you either call or send an email.


"We've Arranged for the Convenient & Easy Return of Your DirecTV Access Card"
"Please return your DirecTV Access Card with these simple steps:"
"1. Take the Access Card out of the recently replaced receiver."
"2. Put the Access Card only in this pre-paid USPS mailer."
"3. Mail back to DirecTV. Please return this within 7 days of the receiver replacement."

As with the "Receiver Recovery Kit", the pre-paid Fedex box, DirecTV is alternately providing a pre-paid 5" x 7" greeting card size envelope to return Just the Access Card for HR20's and other receivers that they no longer require to be returned.
The "quoted" text above is printed on the envelope flap. The envelopes were enclosed in the replacement receiver boxes, and the wording seems to indicate that the envelopes are for "replaced" receivers, but the CSR told me that if I did not order a replacement, but simply deactivated the HR20's, they would still require return of the Access Cards only. I also asked if I gave away an HR20, could someone else activate it, and was told that they could not. The CSR seemed to be well versed in new DirecTV policy, and I believe this information accurately reflects current policy... however we know that doesn't mean that deviations won't occur, and I plan to be interred with the receivers so that if DirecTV later demands their return, all that is required is a simple exhumation.

#44 OFFLINE   gphvid

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 06:14 AM

You will likely not get an HR24. Maybe an HR21 or HR22 (both are garbage, crap, junk).


Actually, the HR21 I got for a replacement of a HR20-100 was not crap. The box works great with no troubles, unlike the HR 20...

#45 ONLINE   unixguru

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:28 AM

The lease agreement doesn't state you can't throw it out. It states that if you don't return it when requested you will be charged a fee. Since these receivers won't ever be requested to be returned, now, there won't be a fee.


You're still not getting the problem here.

There is no legally stated expiration of the period when "return it when requested" could happen.

You say that they won't ever be requested. May even be official internal policy. That's worth nothing legally. As is a CSR stating it on the phone. What matters is what's in writing - official paper/PDF/email in possession of the customer.

Let's say I believe that D* is a benevolent business (with large companies an oxymoron if there ever was one) and I dispose of my H20 & HR20. There is legally nothing that stops D* from changing it's mind and charging me. I have no legal grounds to refuse paying such a charge.

I'm not a lawyer but this is just plain common sense.

#46 ONLINE   unixguru

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:38 AM

"We've Arranged for the Convenient & Easy Return of Your DirecTV Access Card"
"Please return your DirecTV Access Card with these simple steps:"
"1. Take the Access Card out of the recently replaced receiver."
"2. Put the Access Card only in this pre-paid USPS mailer."
"3. Mail back to DirecTV. Please return this within 7 days of the receiver replacement."

As with the "Receiver Recovery Kit", the pre-paid Fedex box, DirecTV is alternately providing a pre-paid 5" x 7" greeting card size envelope to return Just the Access Card for HR20's and other receivers that they no longer require to be returned.
The "quoted" text above is printed on the envelope flap. The envelopes were enclosed in the replacement receiver boxes, and the wording seems to indicate that the envelopes are for "replaced" receivers, but the CSR told me that if I did not order a replacement, but simply deactivated the HR20's, they would still require return of the Access Cards only. I also asked if I gave away an HR20, could someone else activate it, and was told that they could not. The CSR seemed to be well versed in new DirecTV policy, and I believe this information accurately reflects current policy... however we know that doesn't mean that deviations won't occur, and I plan to be interred with the receivers so that if DirecTV later demands their return, all that is required is a simple exhumation.


Doesn't help.

Returning an Access Card doesn't by itself permanently disable a receiver. Or terminate the lease on the box it was married to.

Both the card and receiver have a unique code. Those codes may be permanently terminated but it means nothing regarding the disposition of hardware, dead or not, that is covered by the lease agreement.

This is not rocket science. If their systems can send out a recovery kit it can sure has hell send out a lease termination letter for the hardware.

#47 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 10:53 AM

If they are not recoverable, does this mean I can put big HDDs in them with violating the TOS? Do we now own them?

I would wonder if they would activate a receiver that has been written off.

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#48 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 11:51 AM

I would wonder if they would activate a receiver that has been written off.


I asked that question and got a qualified "yes". I think you'd have to return the original access card when deactivating and when reactivating the 20, buy a new one for $20.

This is just gonna turn into a nightmare. I think Michael Hilley and unixguru are correct about everything they posted. This is another case of poor planning on D*'s part. If D* just had someone who could think of worst case scenarios and plan for them before doing something major, this could all be avoided.

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#49 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 01:38 PM

Doesn't help.

Returning an Access Card doesn't by itself permanently disable a receiver. Or terminate the lease on the box it was married to.

Both the card and receiver have a unique code. Those codes may be permanently terminated but it means nothing regarding the disposition of hardware, dead or not, that is covered by the lease agreement.

This is not rocket science. If their systems can send out a recovery kit it can sure has hell send out a lease termination letter for the hardware.


By terminating the lease they would be transfering rights to the customer. This means the receiver could be sold and put back into circulation. They don't want these in circulation anymore therefor they will not terminate the lease agreement. They will just tell you that they do not want the receiver returned. This is public knowledge available to all employees not some hidden list. So if you don't want to trust them that's on you.

You started a whole other thread on this with the same issue. You don't feel it's right for people to get discounts and you want everyone to be equial and don't want to trust them. These are your issues not DIRECTV's. Obviouslly the majority agree that it's fine due to their continued growth and success each year.

If you're that hung up on it send an email and ask if you have to return the receiver. When you get an email back stating you don't then print that and put a copy in your safety deposit box, one in your vault, one to your lawyer, and then archive the email online on at least 3 cloud based storage systems.

I would wonder if they would activate a receiver that has been written off.



On the same account: Yes
On a different account: No this is why they stay leased in the system so they're not transfered.
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#50 OFFLINE   Michael Hilley

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

Earlier on in my career, those of us registered on recipient lists for specifications and standards, received those in hard copies, and received the periodic updates in hard copies as well, containing just the revised pages, which we manually replaced in the binders we kept. The number of specs I was required to maintain, necessitated nearly an hour/week just for the task of replacing pages. Obviously a huge logistical nightmare and a PIA, for the responsible government agency and for the users... but the best system available at the time.

Fast forward to the present... all of this is done electronically. No more binders... no more paper. If I need the latest spec, I logon and review it online.

DirecTV does not have to mail out 20M new contracts/revisions for any/every policy change to their customers. All they have to do is setup a dedicated site that BOTH their CSR's as well as customers have access to, and are told is the single/official authority for ALL policies, superceding previous policies. The CSR is referring to the same source that the customer is. The only reason to contact a CSR would be for processes that require a CSR, not to engage policy info roulette.

Regarding receiver recovery, DirecTV can list each model and the specific method of deactivation/return required, even with a button to initiate the applicable recovery kit to be sent to the customer.

I've suggested this (general to policy) to DirecTV in the past... however unless Mike White was answering the phone, never to anyone who could do anything about it... or even knew who to pass the suggestion along to. Occurs to me that some of the mods/subs might be on a first name basis with someone at DirecTV that could?

#51 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 02:11 PM

Earlier on in my career, those of us registered on recipient lists for specifications and standards, received those in hard copies, and received the periodic updates in hard copies as well, containing just the revised pages, which we manually replaced in the binders we kept. The number of specs I was required to maintain, necessitated nearly an hour/week just for the task of replacing pages. Obviously a huge logistical nightmare and a PIA, for the responsible government agency and for the users... but the best system available at the time.

Fast forward to the present... all of this is done electronically. No more binders... no more paper. If I need the latest spec, I logon and review it online.

DirecTV does not have to mail out 20M new contracts/revisions for any/every policy change to their customers. All they have to do is setup a dedicated site that BOTH their CSR's as well as customers have access to, and are told is the single/official authority for ALL policies, superceding previous policies. The CSR is referring to the same source that the customer is. The only reason to contact a CSR would be for processes that require a CSR, not to engage policy info roulette.

Regarding receiver recovery, DirecTV can list each model and the specific method of deactivation/return required, even with a button to initiate the applicable recovery kit to be sent to the customer.

I've suggested this (general to policy) to DirecTV in the past... however unless Mike White was answering the phone, never to anyone who could do anything about it... or even knew who to pass the suggestion along to. Occurs to me that some of the mods/subs might be on a first name basis with someone at DirecTV that could?


The only companies I know that have a system like this are companies that charge for support, Apple, Microsoft, Cisco just to name a couple. With those products you pay for support which helps maintain this.

The nature of changes that happen in a day would make this a logisitical nightmare besides the fact that it's completely un necessary. Shipping costs money and allowing people to just request something would end up being a huge overhead increase because people change their minds all the time. Some people get upset that it takes a week to get a recovery kit shipped but how many times have people changed their mind and called in a week to get that receiver reactivated. However once the lables are paid for that's a cost.

What you suggest is just a huge cost increase with very little benefit. How many people would look I bet less than 10000 people would really care and I'm betting out of those 10000 people most would just be looking at it because they want to justify why they think they're getting screwed.

Look at the discussion over something as simple as "do not return" is. This isn't rocket science you just don't trust the company. If you don't then don't do business with them. I've canceled accounts and gone to places because I didn't trust the company anymore.

Bottom line it's not worth it for the little impact it would have and individual consumer's as a majority refuse to pay additional for customer support.
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#52 OFFLINE   Michael Hilley

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 03:06 PM

The only companies I know that have a system like this are companies that charge for support, Apple, Microsoft, Cisco just to name a couple. With those products you pay for support which helps maintain this.

The nature of changes that happen in a day would make this a logisitical nightmare besides the fact that it's completely un necessary. Shipping costs money and allowing people to just request something would end up being a huge overhead increase because people change their minds all the time. Some people get upset that it takes a week to get a recovery kit shipped but how many times have people changed their mind and called in a week to get that receiver reactivated. However once the lables are paid for that's a cost.

What you suggest is just a huge cost increase with very little benefit. How many people would look I bet less than 10000 people would really care and I'm betting out of those 10000 people most would just be looking at it because they want to justify why they think they're getting screwed.

Look at the discussion over something as simple as "do not return" is. This isn't rocket science you just don't trust the company. If you don't then don't do business with them. I've canceled accounts and gone to places because I didn't trust the company anymore.

Bottom line it's not worth it for the little impact it would have and individual consumer's as a majority refuse to pay additional for customer support.


We'll have to agree to disagree.

What I suggest is not added effort on the part of DirecTV.
Changes to policy are going to be internally documented in some form regardless... I'm recommending that they do it just once, and make it available for everyone, so that their CSR's as well as the customers are literally are on the same page.

As for customers changing their minds, this is independent of ordering a return kit.
DirecTV is already sending these out, and people are changing their minds... I assume that DirecTV accounts for the $6 monthly additional receiver fee put back on compensates the cost of shipping materials... if not, DirecTV could spell out in the "online policy" that a recovery kit is sent out for each receiver once at no cost to the customer, meaning they hold onto it until they do return the receiver or pay to send out an additional kit if one is requested at that later date... I don't believe DirecTV would.

I don't know about the "nature of changes that happen in a day", but this is an argument for adopting a better system, not maintaining the present one... if they're as extensive as you suggest, I'm not surprised that the CSR's cannot locate and provide consistent information.

I don't know how many people would look at the site, and what would individually motivate each of them. I would like to think that they would search the site to get answers, much as they do with DBSTalk, but would be assured that it was the definitive source regarding DirecTV policy, because DirecTV would say that it was.

As for whether "I just don't trust the company"... if you mean that I am not certain that the information I receive from a phone CSR is 100% reliable and accurate, then you are correct. I do not believe that the wrong information is the result of willful deceit, rather I believe that it is confusion over policy changes and where to get the latest information. This is my impression of not only DirecTV, but virtually every company I deal/dealt with... just an aspect of doing business and never a source of consternation because I have planned risks/contingencies so I've never experienced any major (or minor) consequences. If you meant something else, you're not qualified to make any conclusions regarding me.

There is no additional cost for customer support, beyond what DirecTV already supports, and the system improvement may lessen/reduce policy related call support. I believe that a system change would help, not burden DirecTV, as well as its customers.

#53 OFFLINE   wahooq

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:03 PM

I asked that question and got a qualified "yes". I think you'd have to return the original access card when deactivating and when reactivating the 20, buy a new one for $20.

This is just gonna turn into a nightmare. I think Michael Hilley and unixguru are correct about everything they posted. This is another case of poor planning on D*'s part. If D* just had someone who could think of worst case scenarios and plan for them before doing something major, this could all be avoided.

Rich


Jesus people its no different than anything thats ever been done before ....just including a different model
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#54 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:44 AM

Jesus people its no different than anything thats ever been done before ....just including a different model


"No different than anything that's ever been done before". Yup, that's why I wrote that. Just about every time D* makes a major change it causes a "nightmare" for customers and CSRs. DLBs, the HD UI and on and on. Better management and better training would not let this happen time after time.

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#55 ONLINE   unixguru

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:19 PM

By terminating the lease they would be transfering rights to the customer. This means the receiver could be sold and put back into circulation. They don't want these in circulation anymore therefor they will not terminate the lease agreement. They will just tell you that they do not want the receiver returned. This is public knowledge available to all employees not some hidden list. So if you don't want to trust them that's on you.


Ahhh... So the lease isn't terminated - ever. DTV won't transfer rights to something they consider worthless and won't take back. But customer is suppose to dispose of it. Sigh.

Why in the world is this "put back into circulation" an issue for DTV??? The damn box has it's own unique code and just like the access card it should be marked as permanently unusable in DTV's systems. So how the heck is anyone going to put it back into circulation?????

This just continues to highlight how totally clueless DTV management is. I guess they regularly lease a car for 15 years and then at the end of that time the leasing company still owns it but, ;);), customer should dispose of it.

You started a whole other thread on this with the same issue. You don't feel it's right for people to get discounts and you want everyone to be equial and don't want to trust them. These are your issues not DIRECTV's. Obviouslly the majority agree that it's fine due to their continued growth and success each year.


Please stop the jedi-mind-trick management deflection crap. Discounts are a problem independent of anything else (just ask the many customers who don't get them). Leases and disconnects are a separate and much bigger problem. Since you have a hangup with the smaller part of my other thread - just ignore 5% of the content rather than use it to deflect from everything else.

#56 ONLINE   unixguru

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:22 PM

Jesus people its no different than anything thats ever been done before ....just including a different model


Are you serious????!!!

This is the first time leased hardware is no longer being recovered.

I've been with D* since 1995 and I'm pretty certain I'm not wrong about that.

#57 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:25 PM

Are you serious????!!!

This is the first time leased hardware is no longer being recovered.

I've been with D* since 1995 and I'm pretty certain I'm not wrong about that.


I'd think the H20, at least the -600 wold have been in this state, maybe the R22. But there are a lot more HR20s.

#58 OFFLINE   wahooq

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:50 PM

Are you serious????!!!

This is the first time leased hardware is no longer being recovered.

I've been with D* since 1995 and I'm pretty certain I'm not wrong about that.


Poppycock!!! Seriously I can name probably a dozen models that are DNR and could still be out there as leased. One has nothing to do with the other.
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#59 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:28 AM

Poppycock!!! Seriously I can name probably a dozen models that are DNR and could still be out there as leased. One has nothing to do with the other.


Gotta agree with you there. I recently dug out an old TiVo and an R10 SD DVR and found out that, altho they replaced owned TiVos, they were listed as leased. Called retention and found out that "someone made a mistake" back in 2006 and relisted the DVRs as leased. Got an email stating that they were owned and not recoverable. Threw them out. So, yeah, there are leased DNRs out there, but how many are truly leased or were listed as leased on a whim?

D* doesn't have software that tracks their inventory, I guess, or this wouldn't have happened.

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#60 OFFLINE   wahooq

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:20 AM

I was just excited to be able to use the word "Poppycock"..hahahaha
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