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How New Equipment "Lease" Should Be


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27 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   unixguru

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 09:28 AM

This post stems from the discussions about the HR20 and H20 no longer being recovered after they are removed from service. Supposedly customers are to recycle these. However, there appears to be no official (and legally binding) statement to this affect. In other words, it appears that customers in this situation would have to store these receivers forever to be guaranteed they wouldn't be charged. As time rolls on more and more leased hardware will fall into this.

Clearly DTV has made a serious omission in the lease program. They haven't planned for the full lifecycle. Obsolete leased hardware is in limbo.

Along with fixing the lease program in this regard, they really need to eliminate this bizarre idea of purchasing something that is leased. Which would also get rid of the ridiculous variation in price depending on how much DTV feels like discounting at any given time for a given customer.

This is a proposal for how it should work.

  • Customer should never have to purchase a leased device!
    • If DTV still feels they must sell through retailers then they can offer a fixed account credit upon activation. Fixed as in a dollar amount assigned to each category (SD,HD,DVR,HMC). NO SPECIAL OFFERS. Implied in this is a retail price cap on each category.
  • Monthly lease fee should be tiered based on category to compensate for revenue previously collected through purchase. NO DISCOUNTING.
  • Disconnecting Device
    • Non-obsolete hardware: recovery kit and account charged if not returned
    • Obsolete hardware: letter sent to customer releasing model/serial from lease and authorizing customer to recycle and account credit for recycling expense (maybe $20?)
In other words, roll ALL full lifecycle hardware cost into the lease fee. If you want to operate on a lease basis then do it!

Incentives should be in the form of account credits only.

It should not cost (recycle fees or time/money to deliver to recycler) the customer to get rid of leased equipment. If DTV wants to save money by not collecting items for recycling then don't expect customers to eat the cost of doing it.

Why is it so hard for DTV to have rational, complete, and fair approach?

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#2 OFFLINE   billsharpe

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:25 PM

That all sounds fair and simple.

It will never happen...
Bill

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#3 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 01:19 PM

So you want to remove promotions and up front costs to have a higher monthly cost.

That is a rental model which has been rehashed enough times on here you can search and find the multitudes of arguments for and against along with 13218239812398 analogies which won't compare.

Instead of being told by an agent they don't want the receiver back you want a letter stating this. I can understand that and in most cases this happens with the instructions on sending back the access card. It will state what is to be returned and why.

You don't have to eat the cost of recycling you can throw the receiver out. If your city/county/state have a statute of disposing electronics then they should have a way to handle this which you pay in your disposal fees already.

So it sounds like you're only real gripe is the fact that some people get discounts and some people don't. That's not going to change because all accounts are not equal.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#4 OFFLINE   wahooq

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 04:59 PM

This post stems from the discussions about the HR20 and H20 no longer being recovered after they are removed from service. Supposedly customers are to recycle these. However, there appears to be no official (and legally binding) statement to this affect. In other words, it appears that customers in this situation would have to store these receivers forever to be guaranteed they wouldn't be charged. As time rolls on more and more leased hardware will fall into this.

Clearly DTV has made a serious omission in the lease program. They haven't planned for the full lifecycle. Obsolete leased hardware is in limbo.

Along with fixing the lease program in this regard, they really need to eliminate this bizarre idea of purchasing something that is leased. Which would also get rid of the ridiculous variation in price depending on how much DTV feels like discounting at any given time for a given customer.

This is a proposal for how it should work.

  • Customer should never have to purchase a leased device!
    • If DTV still feels they must sell through retailers then they can offer a fixed account credit upon activation. Fixed as in a dollar amount assigned to each category (SD,HD,DVR,HMC). NO SPECIAL OFFERS. Implied in this is a retail price cap on each category.
  • Monthly lease fee should be tiered based on category to compensate for revenue previously collected through purchase. NO DISCOUNTING.
  • Disconnecting Device
    • Non-obsolete hardware: recovery kit and account charged if not returned
    • Obsolete hardware: letter sent to customer releasing model/serial from lease and authorizing customer to recycle and account credit for recycling expense (maybe $20?)
In other words, roll ALL full lifecycle hardware cost into the lease fee. If you want to operate on a lease basis then do it!

Incentives should be in the form of account credits only.

It should not cost (recycle fees or time/money to deliver to recycler) the customer to get rid of leased equipment. If DTV wants to save money by not collecting items for recycling then don't expect customers to eat the cost of doing it.

Why is it so hard for DTV to have rational, complete, and fair approach?


So throw it in the trash....no one has to keep their rcvr to keep from being charged, if it is non recoverable the only thing you cant do with it is activate it on someone elses account
My comments and opinions are my own and not necessarily those of DirecTV.

#5 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:00 PM

This post stems from the discussions about the HR20 and H20 no longer being recovered after they are removed from service. Supposedly customers are to recycle these. However, there appears to be no official (and legally binding) statement to this affect. In other words, it appears that customers in this situation would have to store these receivers forever to be guaranteed they wouldn't be charged. As time rolls on more and more leased hardware will fall into this.

Clearly DTV has made a serious omission in the lease program. They haven't planned for the full lifecycle. Obsolete leased hardware is in limbo.

Along with fixing the lease program in this regard, they really need to eliminate this bizarre idea of purchasing something that is leased. Which would also get rid of the ridiculous variation in price depending on how much DTV feels like discounting at any given time for a given customer.

This is a proposal for how it should work.

  • Customer should never have to purchase a leased device!
    • If DTV still feels they must sell through retailers then they can offer a fixed account credit upon activation. Fixed as in a dollar amount assigned to each category (SD,HD,DVR,HMC). NO SPECIAL OFFERS. Implied in this is a retail price cap on each category.
  • Monthly lease fee should be tiered based on category to compensate for revenue previously collected through purchase. NO DISCOUNTING.
  • Disconnecting Device
    • Non-obsolete hardware: recovery kit and account charged if not returned
    • Obsolete hardware: letter sent to customer releasing model/serial from lease and authorizing customer to recycle and account credit for recycling expense (maybe $20?)
In other words, roll ALL full lifecycle hardware cost into the lease fee. If you want to operate on a lease basis then do it!

Incentives should be in the form of account credits only.

It should not cost (recycle fees or time/money to deliver to recycler) the customer to get rid of leased equipment. If DTV wants to save money by not collecting items for recycling then don't expect customers to eat the cost of doing it.

Why is it so hard for DTV to have rational, complete, and fair approach?


Purchase a leased device well some cable system bill you a up front fee for some boxes (renting) even if pick it and install on your own.
It's should be like most Canada systems aka what SHAW does your choice buy it or RENT to own with no mirroring / outlet / tv fees.
I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#6 OFFLINE   JACKIEGAGA

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:35 PM

wahooq out of curiosity can they be re-activated?

JACK,
 
 


#7 OFFLINE   wahooq

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:06 PM

wahooq out of curiosity can they be re-activated?


yes if on the same account
My comments and opinions are my own and not necessarily those of DirecTV.

#8 OFFLINE   JACKIEGAGA

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:09 PM

Thanks

JACK,
 
 


#9 OFFLINE   hitokage

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:21 AM

Part of the problem is some customers and even some CSRs seem to think the leases work like subsidized cell phones - when the term is up or they pay an early termination fee, they think the receivers are owned.

After watching the Undercover Boss episode, I was really hoping that Mr. White would have the leasing thing rethought. From what I remember one of the calls he took while working in a call center showed him explaining to a caller that the dish and wiring belonged to the account holders, but the receivers didn't - I guess he still didn't think it was confusing.

Maybe they should start calling it a rental instead of a lease - people know (most people anyway) that when they rent something, it is supposed to be returned. They actually might be able to make more money that way, as they would keep the amount the same past the initial two year commitment, but they probably should slightly lower the cost for the Protection Plan - maybe call it wire/dish maintenance sort of like the phone company since the receivers are rented.

This is what they could do - no up front cost and the first receiver would be get a $6 discount:
HD-DVR - $14-15 month per box plus one DVR fee and HD fee per account
HD receiver - $10-11 month per box plus one HD fee per account
SD-DVR - $10-11 month per box plus one DVR fee
SD receiver - $8.50-9 month per box

As far as still having retailers selling receivers - those boxes would be full price, be considered owned, have just the $6 mirroring/additional receiver fee beyond a single receiver (in addition to the HD access and DVR fees as necessary), and require the Premier Protection Plan for free replacement.

Edited by hitokage, 15 July 2012 - 04:29 AM.


#10 OFFLINE   Justin23

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 06:29 AM

After the 13th month, the $15 monthly fee will have just about equaled the lease cost for an HD-DVR.

Leasing may have a higher upfront cost, but D* customers will usually save more in the long run than charging higher monthly fees for equipment.

#11 OFFLINE   aziz

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 06:59 AM

DTV can tell to the (existing) customer to dispose the receiver in the trash. No return packaging, re-stocking, antiquated inventory, and miscellaneous costs!

DTV can still be in the hardware business. But it should only offer the very latest! Therefore, the company can claim that it offers in vogue hardware/service business to (new or renewed) customers. The company can offer free receiver upgrade (i.e., contract extension, installation, and misc. are extras.)

My Rant:
DTV should have NOT be in the hardware leasing/renting business in the first place. But NO, the company needed to use some accounting tricks to make it look good to Wall Street! Now DTV is trying to return to the services business (i.e., DTV anywhere, Apps, and etc.) while holding the dirty laundry (i.e., the hardware leasing business.)

#12 OFFLINE   lparsons21

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:11 AM

This is what they could do - no up front cost and the first receiver would be get a $6 discount:
HD-DVR - $14-15 month per box plus one DVR fee and HD fee per account
HD receiver - $10-11 month per box plus one HD fee per account
SD-DVR - $10-11 month per box plus one DVR fee
SD receiver - $8.50-9 month per box


Hmm... Where have I seen something similar to this?

Oh yeah, that is exactly what E* did before the Hopper/Joey came out! :)

And I remember all the warm fuzzies that Dish got when they did that!

Lloyd
Receiver : DirecTV Genie HR44-700, Dish Hopper w/Sling & Super Joey
HDTV : Mitsi WD-73742 73" 3D DLP
Surround: Denon AVR-2113ci 7.1 Setup

 


#13 OFFLINE   usnret

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:20 AM

Shouldn't D offer to take the equipment back, vice having a person dispose of it. Seems like there would be a little bit of money to be made off the old stuff. Especially if there is a bunch of it.
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.

#14 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:54 AM

So throw it in the trash....no one has to keep their rcvr to keep from being charged, if it is non recoverable the only thing you cant do with it is activate it on someone elses account


Except that some people are still being told it is recoverable, I believe, others told they aren't. To me, it's a box in limbo. It still is owned by DirecTV. Is it someone's right to throw away (or recycle) someone else's property, even if thy say they don't want it back? I'm not saying DirecTV will change their mind, but it would be nice to get something in writing that the model is non-recoverable and a statement in the lease agreement covering that scenario.

#15 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:46 AM

Except that some people are still being told it is recoverable, I believe, others told they aren't. To me, it's a box in limbo. It still is owned by DirecTV. Is it someone's right to throw away (or recycle) someone else's property, even if thy say they don't want it back? I'm not saying DirecTV will change their mind, but it would be nice to get something in writing that the model is non-recoverable and a statement in the lease agreement covering that scenario.


The HR20/H20 have only been on that list for a short time. So I'm betting people who said they had to return it happened to disconnect it prior to that day. You could have called in one day and then the next and the answer would have been different. Even if someone was wrong and attempted to order a return kit the system will tell them we don't want it back.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#16 OFFLINE   unixguru

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:48 PM

Shame on those suggesting that the boxes be thrown in the trash. It should be the law everywhere that electronics must be recycled. It certainly is here (Minneapolis metro).

In my burb we either pay a recycler the normal going rate or once a year the city has a recycle day with discounted recycling. I imagine a DVR would be around $5 when discounted; after I sit in a line of cars for as much as half an hour. (Of course DTV places no value on my time.) We have far more BestBuy's than we need so free disposal is easily accessible here. That's not the case everywhere. I never shop WorstBuy so that's a special trip for me. So it costs me no matter how it's done.

I'm sure the leasing/rental terminology has been hashed over ad-nauseam. I don't really care what it's called. Unlike any other thing that is leased (including corporate computer hardware, etc) there is no apparent lease termination date. DTV has one internally otherwise they wouldn't decide not to recover junk (and the term is so long that the equipment is totally depreciated). So if you keep your box past that internal date then DTV gets increased profit.

Put a lease term on each device. Offer multiple "levels" (durations) of lease. Let customer decide whether they want lowest overall cost or more frequent hardware updates. Let customer pre-pay to get additional discount. Just like car leasing. All problems solved. All customers catered to. If it's too complicated then you shouldn't be in the leasing business.

Discounting - I didn't say get rid of incentives. Just remove them from hardware. Credit the account a fixed amount. The only problem I have with incentives are the permanent ones - like free HD for life. Takes a special kind of moron company to think existing customers are going to be ok with that.

Frankly I don't care how difficult it is for DTV. The fact of the matter is that the system in place now has a lot of problems. I don't believe for a minute that a solution isn't out there. FIX IT.

#17 OFFLINE   unixguru

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:53 PM

So it sounds like you're only real gripe is the fact that some people get discounts and some people don't. That's not going to change because all accounts are not equal.


It's starting to smell like a monopoly. If not official at least de facto. Two sat and one cable company in my area might as well be a single monopoly. Services are similar, prices are similar, no competition.

Should be considered a UTILITY and regulated as such. Then accounts will be equal.

I see very little practical difference between power, gas, phone, and TV.

#18 OFFLINE   evan_s

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:10 PM

After the 13th month, the $15 monthly fee will have just about equaled the lease cost for an HD-DVR.

Leasing may have a higher upfront cost, but D* customers will usually save more in the long run than charging higher monthly fees for equipment.


Ultimately this is what it comes down to. I know when I signed up it was a little odd to think that I was paying $200 up front for a device I didn't own but when I looked at it objectively it ultimately made sense. DirecTV could drop the initial cost and raid the monthly cost for the box but they'd have to plan it so they recouped that amount in by the end of the commitment (24 months for a dvr) because they couldn't guarantee that you'd be a customer for any longer. For the customer this ends up being a bad deal because, just like cell phone service, you keep paying for that subsidy long after you've paid back the initial upfront amount you avoided.

I wouldn't mind something like t-mobile has on their value plan which makes the subsidy a separate fee that has a fixed cost and term so that once you've paid it off you're no longer charged. It basically amounts to 0 interest financing for x months. Say 5$ a month for 20 months for a hd-dvr etc.

#19 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

Ultimately this is what it comes down to. I know when I signed up it was a little odd to think that I was paying $200 up front for a device I didn't own but when I looked at it objectively it ultimately made sense. DirecTV could drop the initial cost and raid the monthly cost for the box but they'd have to plan it so they recouped that amount in by the end of the commitment (24 months for a dvr) because they couldn't guarantee that you'd be a customer for any longer. For the customer this ends up being a bad deal because, just like cell phone service, you keep paying for that subsidy long after you've paid back the initial upfront amount you avoided.

I wouldn't mind something like t-mobile has on their value plan which makes the subsidy a separate fee that has a fixed cost and term so that once you've paid it off you're no longer charged. It basically amounts to 0 interest financing for x months. Say 5$ a month for 20 months for a hd-dvr etc.


what about what Shaw does your choice buy the box up front or rent to own?
I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#20 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:53 AM

Where is it being reported they aren't collecting old hardware? I deactivated a box a couple months ago and they recovered it. I just deactivated another one last week and am waiting for the recovery box. Wonder if I will ever get it.




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