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Adding HR-34 to Complex Setup - Assistance Needed


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90 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:52 AM

Posted Image

This would be it, with a CCK on each.
A.K.A VOS

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#22 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:20 AM

OK. Thanks. Cost isn't an issue as D* is doing this upgrade as part of the HR34 install which requires the SWM "upgrade."


I honestly would look for an authorized DirecTV installer that has experience with these setups. At that point, it won't be free, but I think it would be beneficial in the long run. Your average tech that does the free installs likely doesn't have much experience with these configs.

#23 OFFLINE   HofstraJet

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:39 AM

This is why I do these installs/upgrades myself and just basically get the hardware from D*. I currently have the dish feeds split to a WB16 in the Home Theater feeding the local DVRs and a WB16 in the attic feeding the individual BRs and a cascaded WB8 in the MBR. All of the cabling is done as this is not a new install (four cables to MBR, six to home theater, and each BR has two) - all the installer has to do is swap out each switch for a SWM. I have been lucky that recent D* techs have been tolerant of my explaining the setup and then working with me to get the job done right.

Now, I had a thought - is there a distance limit on how far the splitter that feeds the DVRs can be from the switch? Would 75'-100' be OK? If so, 2 SWM16s in the attic would be fine and then the lines currently used for the WB8/WB16 in the home theater/MBR can be used to feed the splitters which I will install locally in each location. Any combination of switches is fine - doesn't matter to me as long as it works and I don't have to pay (I pay D* enough already - wiring is done, so they shouldn't charge for anything extra as all they are doing is replacing existing hardware).

Thanks!

#24 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:48 AM

Now, I had a thought - is there a distance limit on how far the splitter that feeds the DVRs can be from the switch? Would 75'-100' be OK?
Thanks!

That isn't going to be a problem.

After they're done, you might add the diplexers and combining "splitter" for this:

http://www.dbstalk.c...=1&d=1342586724

With 100' runs, I don't see a loss issue.
A.K.A VOS

#25 OFFLINE   HofstraJet

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:14 AM

That looks like a great idea, VOS, now that I have extra cable runs since I can leave the SWM switches in the attic and just have splitters locally. I will do that after the D* guy leaves as he won't have a clue about this part.

#26 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:35 AM

That looks like a great idea, VOS, now that I have extra cable runs since I can leave the SWM switches in the attic and just have splitters locally. I will do that after the D* guy leaves as he won't have a clue about this part.

I would make sure they only use 4-way splitters, as you don't need to have larger ones.
You might see if they will leave a spare 4-way, and then you'd only need the NAS 9501M diplexers. These are currently the only ones tested in this configuration, so it's worth the $6/ea. for them.

I just ran the numbers for every coax run being 100' and see almost 10 dB of headroom, so there shouldn't be a problem.


If or when you do this, it would be nice to get your feedback here:http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=207005

Edited by veryoldschool, 18 July 2012 - 10:58 AM.

A.K.A VOS

#27 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:32 PM

I would make sure they only use 4-way splitters, as you don't need to have larger ones.
You might see if they will leave a spare 4-way, and then you'd only need the NAS 9501M diplexers. These are currently the only ones tested in this configuration, so it's worth the $6/ea. for them.

I just ran the numbers for every coax run being 100' and see almost 10 dB of headroom, so there shouldn't be a problem.

If or when you do this, it would be nice to get your feedback here:http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=207005


Can't he go with one of the splitters being a 2 way for the one running the HR34 and still use the duplexes like you suggest?

#28 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:53 PM

Can't he go with one of the splitters being a 2 way for the one running the HR34 and still use the duplexes like you suggest?

If only two coax need to be connected, then sure a 2-way can be used.
The "main point" is to stay away from the 8-ways, as they have more loss and limit the coax lengths by at least 3 dB, and this doubles to 6 dB for the paths that would run through two.
A.K.A VOS

#29 ONLINE   LameLefty

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:01 PM

The "main point" is to stay away from the 8-ways, as they have more loss and limit the coax lengths by at least 3 dB, and this doubles to 6 dB for the paths that would run through two.


And tell folks who don't "speak log" why a 3 or 6 dB loss is significant, please. ;)

(I already know the answer but a lot of folks may wonder why to worry about such "small" numbers).

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#30 OFFLINE   HofstraJet

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:04 PM

And tell folks who don't "speak log" why a 3 or 6 dB loss is significant, please. ;)


Very helpful stuff, guys. Thanks a bunch! Will report back Saturday.

"Speak log." That's priceless. :D

#31 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:13 PM

And tell folks who don't "speak log" why a 3 or 6 dB loss is significant, please. ;)

(I already know the answer but a lot of folks may wonder why to worry about such "small" numbers).


The "easy answer is" the power drops to 50%, or 25%.

What may mean more, in this case, is that the maximum end to end [between SWiMs] length of the coax, drops by 60' or 120'.

The cloud loss calculator here should help: http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=207005
A.K.A VOS

#32 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:34 PM

The "easy answer is" the power drops to 50%, or 25%.

What may mean more, in this case, is that the maximum end to end [between SWiMs] length of the coax, drops by 60' or 120'.

The cloud loss calculator here should help: http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=207005


Vos here is another question I have offend wondered. In a situation like his, where he will put his swim 16 in the attic and then could run two wires to the closet ~100ft away and put the splitters there to feed the receivers only a couple feet from the splitter, would that be better than putting the splitters in the attic and then having the long runs come after the splitters?

#33 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:53 PM

Vos here is another question I have offend wondered. In a situation like his, where he will put his swim 16 in the attic and then could run two wires to the closet ~100ft away and put the splitters there to feed the receivers only a couple feet from the splitter, would that be better than putting the splitters in the attic and then having the long runs come after the splitters?

Sure, it would use more copper. :lol:
"Loss wise" there's zero difference.

Loss: coax x dB + splitter x dB = splitter x dB + coax x dB
A.K.A VOS

#34 OFFLINE   HofstraJet

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:56 PM

Vos here is another question I have offend wondered. In a situation like his, where he will put his swim 16 in the attic and then could run two wires to the closet ~100ft away and put the splitters there to feed the receivers only a couple feet from the splitter, would that be better than putting the splitters in the attic and then having the long runs come after the splitters?


Interesting question. However, if that's the case, I would install the SWM local to the home theater. The data chase is full and I can't pull any additional coax in there easily so I am going to have to find a solution to use the existing coax, whether that means sending the splitter signal over the existing runs or the lines to the SWM.

EDIT: Just saw VOS's response - glad to hear there is no difference. :)

#35 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:00 PM

You can always count on veryoldschool for the best information. All I can add is, make sure you are using the right "green label" splitters and the NAS STD-9501M diplexers. Other splitters and diplexers won't give you the right isolation or combination.
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#36 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:02 PM

Sure, it would use more copper. :lol:
"Loss wise" there's zero difference.

Loss: coax x dB + splitter x dB = splitter x dB + coax x dB


That's what I wanted to know, if there was any difference loss wise. Good to know its the same, means more options that will have the same effect.

#37 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:13 PM

That's what I wanted to know, if there was any difference loss wise.

If there was, believe me, I would have posted it years ago. :lol:
A.K.A VOS

#38 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:15 PM

Interesting question. However, if that's the case, I would install the SWM local to the home theater. The data chase is full and I can't pull any additional coax in there easily so I am going to have to find a solution to use the existing coax, whether that means sending the splitter signal over the existing runs or the lines to the SWM.

EDIT: Just saw VOS's response - glad to hear there is no difference. :)

You'll have "extra" coax not used to the theater room, right?
The CCK is best connected where the layout shows, so if it needs to be in the theater room, it would be good to use one of these "spare" coax to feed it.
A.K.A VOS

#39 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:27 PM

All I can add is, make sure you are using the right "green label" splitters and the NAS STD-9501M diplexers. Other splitters and diplexers won't give you the right isolation or combination.

Maybe I should put a nail/spike in this because all the testing has been done with these two items and "I will almost guarantee" if you don't use these, it won't work!!!

The wrong splitter will have too much loss and the wrong diplexer will have the SWiM sections interact in not so nicely ways!!!!
A.K.A VOS

#40 OFFLINE   HofstraJet

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:22 PM

You'll have "extra" coax not used to the theater room, right?
The CCK is best connected where the layout shows, so if it needs to be in the theater room, it would be good to use one of these "spare" coax to feed it.


Thankfully this is not an issue because in my garage, above which the SWMs will live in the attic, I have a wireless access point which is hardwired to the network and has a 4 port switch on it that I can use to connect the CCK.

I am going to wait on ordering the diplexers until I see which arrangement I end up with on Saturday. I just hope I get an installer who will listen!




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