Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

When one SWiM isn't enough


  • Please log in to reply
68 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 42,158 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:22 PM

VOS, if you used the four splitter method for two SWMs, could you use two CCKs or DECAs and plug them both into a network switch. I'm wondering if that would avoid so much traffic through the router.

Ethernet switches "should" keep the traffic off of your home network, but not all switches are equal.

If the added loss of a splitter used to combine, wouldn't be a problem, then I'd go with the combining of the DECA RF signals, if it didn't push me over the 16 node limit.
A.K.A VOS

#27 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

SomeRandomIdiot

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 1,348 posts
Joined: Jan 06, 2009

Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:26 PM

I've seen the diagrams that you have graciously produced for more than 1 SWiM w/ DECA.

I have several HR20s including a HR20-100 all together in a room. They are split between 2 different SWiM 16s.

Instead of putting the 4 2way splitters on each 8 tuner leg of the dual SWiM 16s which then feed together in a 4 way splitter, what would be the disavantage of using 2 DECA Adapters, one on each SWiM 16 with the RG6 feeding the HR20s - but the ethernet plugged into a 8 year old 7 port Linksys Ethernet Switch I have sitting around doing nothing. Then just feed an ethernet connection to each of the HR20s.

This would bridge the DECA between the 2 SWiM 16s, alleviate all the splitters and wiring at the SWiM for the bridge and alleviate the need for 2 extra DECAs. Also take care of the finicky HR20-100 issue.

Does that make any sense - and if so, what is the downside?

Edited by SomeRandomIdiot, 13 November 2012 - 12:23 AM.


#28 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 42,158 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:36 AM

It sort of makes sense. You're simply segmenting the DECA into smaller clouds and combining in ethernet.
Should do about the same as combining the RF, "but" you'll lose the system test function [in the 24/34s] that will test the whole network.
"As for working" should be the same.
A.K.A VOS

#29 OFFLINE   gpauljr

gpauljr

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 39 posts
Joined: Jul 11, 2007

Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:59 AM

May be a stupid question, but what does the 16 node limit mean? I currently have a SWIM 16, with 7 DVR's and 2 regular tuners, using all the 16 "ports", for lack of a better term. I may wish to expand in the future. I have whole home. What are the practical limits so that all sites can see each other in the whole home system?

#30 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 42,158 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

May be a stupid question, but what does the 16 node limit mean? I currently have a SWIM 16, with 7 DVR's and 2 regular tuners, using all the 16 "ports", for lack of a better term. I may wish to expand in the future. I have whole home. What are the practical limits so that all sites can see each other in the whole home system?

We need to separate "tuners" from "nodes".
In your current setup, you have 16 tuners, and at least [7+2] nodes, but may have another node for the CCK [if you have one].
"Nodes" are each DECA.

"Practical limits" might be seen as the limit of the DECA RF signal between the farthest devices, which needs to have less than 45 dB of loss, or the networking starts to degrade.
A.K.A VOS

#31 OFFLINE   gpauljr

gpauljr

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 39 posts
Joined: Jul 11, 2007

Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:38 AM

Thank you.

#32 OFFLINE   dminches

dminches

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 455 posts
Joined: Oct 01, 2006

Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

We need to separate "tuners" from "nodes".
In your current setup, you have 16 tuners, and at least [7+2] nodes, but may have another node for the CCK [if you have one].
"Nodes" are each DECA.

"Practical limits" might be seen as the limit of the DECA RF signal between the farthest devices, which needs to have less than 45 dB of loss, or the networking starts to degrade.


If I have more than 16 tuners with 2 SWM16s and using unsupported Ethernet MRV, will all the playlists be combined or will they be split by swm16?

Also, which are the appropriate splitters to be used with 2 SWM16s?

I am reading the article VOS posted. Hopefully it will answer my questions. I would think the switches have to cascaded for all the DVRs to see one another. With splitters I assume it won't work that way.

Edited by dminches, 06 January 2013 - 05:10 PM.
More info


DirecTV subscriber since 1994
HR44 (5 TB eSata) -> Runco LS-5 via HDMI

HR24-500 (2 TB eSata) -> Samsung 50" via HDMI
HR24-100 (1.5 TB eSata) -> Sony 50E2000 via HDMI
HR24-700 - owned (2 TB internal) -> Samsung LN32A550 via HDMI
HR20-100s - owned -> Sony Bravia 40"

 


#33 OFFLINE   dennisj00

dennisj00

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 9,287 posts
  • LocationLake Norman, NC
Joined: Sep 27, 2007

Posted 06 January 2013 - 05:59 PM

Your unsupported ethernet has nothing to do with how many swims you have. All your ethernet connections to your DVRs will show up as one playlist.

Using the Skywalker splitters in the article puts the swims in parallel rather than cascaded.

Spending to stimulate the economy as fast as the credit cards will allow!

My Setup / Weather at Lake Norman!/ Boathouse BEES
DLB, MRV, nomad, HDGUI are HERE! . . . We're DONE!


#34 OFFLINE   dminches

dminches

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 455 posts
Joined: Oct 01, 2006

Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:07 PM

Right. I now see that. If they are all hooked up via Ethernet they should all be able to see each other. I guess I will just get some splitters.

Thanks.

DirecTV subscriber since 1994
HR44 (5 TB eSata) -> Runco LS-5 via HDMI

HR24-500 (2 TB eSata) -> Samsung 50" via HDMI
HR24-100 (1.5 TB eSata) -> Sony 50E2000 via HDMI
HR24-700 - owned (2 TB internal) -> Samsung LN32A550 via HDMI
HR20-100s - owned -> Sony Bravia 40"

 


#35 OFFLINE   ljg1118

ljg1118

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 63 posts
Joined: Aug 23, 2006

Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

Great article but unless I missed something there are two directv issues that there is no current work around for:

1)Seeing more than 8 DVR's
2)Seeing DVR's on seperate SWiM 16's.

Any help with this is appreciated


Is there any current work around for issue 1?

#36 OFFLINE   ljg1118

ljg1118

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 63 posts
Joined: Aug 23, 2006

Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:51 PM

Installer was at my house for a receiver replacement and he advised that 12 DVR's/24 Tuners is the Max number of DVR's that can see each other, he also stated that by disconnecting all the recievers from multi switch and the re-connecting the first 12 DVR's you want to communicate with each other is a work around.....

What is the actual supported number 8-10, or 12?

#37 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet

    The Shadow Knows!

  • Super Moderators
  • 37,028 posts
Joined: Jun 18, 2006

Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:39 PM

The installer is incorrect, to my knowledge.

I have been told over and over, there is no limit to the actual number of devices, but only 8 will be seen. The number of tuners is irrelevant; if all 8 were Genies, they would still see each other.

Also it's not "the first 8" it's more of a random grouping of 8 out of the total that you have.
Opinions expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of DBSTalk.com, DIRECTV, DISH, The Signal Group, or any other company.

#38 OFFLINE   ljg1118

ljg1118

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 63 posts
Joined: Aug 23, 2006

Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:49 PM

Stuart:

I agree on the number of devices being limitless as I have 15, its just how many can be grouped together and how to set up a group that has me puzzled....

#39 OFFLINE   DBSNewbie

DBSNewbie

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 807 posts
Joined: Nov 03, 2007

Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:34 PM

With having 13 networked HD boxes on my system (11 of which are DVRs) I can say with absolute certainty that the maximum number of servers that can be seen by the system is 10.

The 10 DVRs are acquired by random and cannot be manipulated or adjusted by resetting the boxes in a particular order.

This has been confirmed by other members here with more than 10 DVRs on their system.
Slimline, WB616 (2), SWM8 (2), OTA, MRV (U)
Den: Sony KDS-60A3000 -> HR20-700; Sony KDL-40S2000 (5) -> HR20-700 (2) & HR20-100 (3)
Master Bed: Kuro PDP-5020FD -> HR34-700
Master Bath: Sony KDL-26S3000 + PSP -> HR24-200
Daughter's: Sony KDL-40W3000 -> HR20-700
Son's: Sony KDL-40W3000 -> HR24-500
Kitchen: Sharp 20" -> H24-700
Guest: Sharp 20" -> H20-100
Patio: SunbriteTV 3220 -> H25-500
Living Room: Sony 42" XBR Plasma -> HR20-100

Diagram of Setup

#40 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet

    The Shadow Knows!

  • Super Moderators
  • 37,028 posts
Joined: Jun 18, 2006

Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:37 PM

Stuart:

I agree on the number of devices being limitless as I have 15, its just how many can be grouped together and how to set up a group that has me puzzled....


Put receivers on the same splitter and put a band stop filter between the splitter and the swm.
Opinions expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of DBSTalk.com, DIRECTV, DISH, The Signal Group, or any other company.

#41 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

SomeRandomIdiot

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 1,348 posts
Joined: Jan 06, 2009

Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:01 PM

There's a good article about connecting more than one switch/SWiM here: http://forums.solids...ers-in-the-home

One of the more advanced is:

http://www.dbstalk.c...=1&d=1342586724

To aid in planning losses and layouts before committing to this, here is a calculator that you can load coax lengths to get an idea of the DECA loss.
This works best with the longest coax connected to the same splitter, since the signal only needs to go through one splitter between the nodes.
Long runs on one splitter do effect the maximum length of other splitter runs.

[ATTACH]29602[/ATTACH]


In the jpg shown in post #1 (and above), if one had a position open on the 4 way splitters, couldn't you just interconnect the SWiM clouds from that point instead of using the 4 additional 850-2150s, which in theory would result in less signal loss?

#42 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 42,158 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:19 PM

In the jpg shown in post #1 (and above), if one had a position open on the 4 way splitters, couldn't you just interconnect the SWiM clouds from that point instead of using the 4 additional 850-2150s, which in theory would result in less signal loss?

Absolutely Not.

Combining two SWiMs without using diplexers causes the two SWiMs to interact, "in very bad ways". If you don't use the correct diplexers this has happened too.
A.K.A VOS

#43 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,693 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:57 PM

Absolutely Not.

Combining two SWiMs without using diplexers causes the two SWiMs to interact, "in very bad ways". If you don't use the correct diplexers this has happened too.


This is my main concern as I'm considering reducing losses on my setup through both changing out my two 8-way splitters on each leg of the SWiM-16 from the original install for two 4-ways, as well as bypassing the internal DECA crossover on the -16 with two cross-connected diplexers.

However dielray once told me to be careful to use the right dipelxers, particularly in regard to their ability to suppress any leakage of the 2.3 MHz SWiM control signal to the OTA ports which the DECA signals are using wreaking havoc with the alternate SWiM-8 circuit.

Was considering this one by Sonora DA;

Posted Image

Sonora SWM/CATV Horizontal Case (SD SWMD2)

#44 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 42,158 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 15 March 2013 - 08:20 AM

This is my main concern as I'm considering reducing losses on my setup through both changing out my two 8-way splitters on each leg of the SWiM-16 from the original install for two 4-ways, as well as bypassing the internal DECA crossover on the -16 with two cross-connected diplexers.

However dielray once told me to be careful to use the right dipelxers, particularly in regard to their ability to suppress any leakage of the 2.3 MHz SWiM control signal to the OTA ports which the DECA signals are using wreaking havoc with the alternate SWiM-8 circuit.

Was considering this one by Sonora DA;

Posted Image

Sonora SWM/CATV Horizontal Case (SD SWMD2)

The NAS STD-9501M is $6 and is known to work, while the Sonora is $10 and "should work".
A.K.A VOS

#45 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,693 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:44 AM

The NAS STD-9501M is $6 and is known to work, while the Sonora is $10 and "should work".


Well the one in the photo is Sonora's SD-SWMD2 for $5.40 each (at Satprotv anyway). Are you referring to their SD-SWMD3 from Solid Signal for $10.99?

Posted Image

Thought that one would be unnecessary overkill for double the price.

#46 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 42,158 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 15 March 2013 - 10:12 AM

Well the one in the photo is Sonora's SD-SWMD2 for $5.40 each (at Satprotv anyway). Are you referring to their SD-SWMD3 from Solid Signal for $10.99?

Posted Image

Thought that one would be unnecessary overkill for double the price.

SS lists the SD-SWMD2 at $10.
If the SD-SWMD1 was still available it would be a better choice, which leaves the SD-SWMD3 @ $11 as the only choice from Sonora.

The NAS diplexer is the only one that has been tested in this configuration.

Sonora "may" have a product that works, but without testing, I won't say they do.
A.K.A VOS

#47 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,693 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:25 PM

SS lists the SD-SWMD2 at $10.
If the SD-SWMD1 was still available it would be a better choice, which leaves the SD-SWMD3 @ $11 as the only choice from Sonora.

The NAS diplexer is the only one that has been tested in this configuration.

Sonora "may" have a product that works, but without testing, I won't say they do.


Though I must say that after looking at this illustration from Sonora DA, I'm not sure I want to spend some $22.00 on these expensive diplexers if all I can expect is around a modest 3 db of gain (-7 to -4 db) through bypassing the internal DECA crossover bridge of the SWiM-16 with these diplexers.

http://www.dbstalk.c...89&d=1363403579

Is that about the same gain I can expect with the NAS diplexers?

Attached Thumbnails

  • Crossover diplexer Illustration.png


#48 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 42,158 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:37 PM

Though I must say that after looking at this illustration from Sonora DA, I'm not sure I want to spend some $22.00 on these expensive diplexers if all I can expect is around a modest 3 db of gain (-7 to -4 db) through bypassing the internal DECA crossover bridge of the SWiM-16 with these diplexers.

Is that about the same gain I can expect with the NAS diplexers?

The crossover has about 6 dB loss, and the NAS when in bridging mode, has about 1 dB, so there's a 5 dB "gain" for DECA.
When you move to combining two SWiM-16s, with a 4-way, the "plus" 5 dB drops to -5 dB due to the 4-way loss.
A.K.A VOS

#49 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,693 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:57 PM

The crossover has about 6 dB loss, and the NAS when in bridging mode, has about 1 dB, so there's a 5 dB "gain" for DECA.
When you move to combining two SWiM-16s, with a 4-way, the "plus" 5 dB drops to -5 dB due to the 4-way loss.


Ok;

I once experimentally measured the loss of the -16 internal crossover, and it was indeed about -6 db, but I was simply using Sonora's quoted figure of -7 db anyhow in case I made an error since they are the experts with the professional test equipment. :)

http://www.dbstalk.c...90&d=1363405801

Attached Thumbnails

  • SWM-16 Crossover Bridge Loss Illustration.png


#50 OFFLINE   ndole

ndole

    Problem Solver

  • Registered
  • 1,903 posts
Joined: Aug 26, 2009

Posted 16 March 2013 - 07:32 AM

Absolutely Not.

Combining two SWiMs without using diplexers causes the two SWiMs to interact, "in very bad ways". If you don't use the correct diplexers this has happened too.


I can attest to that :lol:
Spend the money on the correct diplexers.
"He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else."




Protected By... spam firewall...And...