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Is it true DTV has more satellites than dish?


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88 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   evan_s

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:15 PM

To note:

The Spaceway Tp. bandwidth is 62.5 MHz, D10-12 is 36 MHz ± 2 MHz guard band and Ku is 24 MHz.


Thanks. I was a bit off I guess =)

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#22 OFFLINE   HobbyTalk

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 02:56 PM

Now for the usefulness of these:

61.5º has an EL of about 27º in Denver & 14º on the west coast.
72.7º 34º Denver & 22º west coast
77º 37º Denver & 25º west coast

99º 37º west coast & 35º east coast
101º 38º west coast & 35º east coast
103º 39º west coast & 34º east coast
110º 30º east coast
119º 24º east coast

121º 23º east coast
129º 38º Denver & 18º east coast

61.5º, 72.7º, & [maybe] 77º, need to be repeated on 121º & 129º

Generally those east of the Mississippi use 61.5, 72.7 and 77. Those west of the Mississippi use 110, 119, 129. All Dish national programming is available on each set of 3 sats. Where your LiLs are is what arc you would use.
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#23 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:38 AM

To the OP's point, I hesitate to say the installer was lying - let's just say he was misinformed.

Because the DirecTV and Dish satellites are at different locations in the sky there will be locations that can receive service from one provider, but not from the other. In my case, I was a Dish customer for several years, mainly because when I originally switched from cable to satellite a tree across the road from my house blocked the DirecTV slot. Later, when DirecTV released the original TiVo DVRs in 2001, that tree had been knocked down in a storm and I was able to switch.

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#24 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:11 AM

110 is still broadcasting, but who knows what.

If the broadcasting isn't "in the public interest", it doesn't really matter.

The SAT count isn't as important as the transponder count.

DIRECTV has at least two small complements of transponder capability (RB1 and RB2-A) that can't effectively be used to broadcast conventional programming and four transponders at 110W that they choose not to use for same. Transponders don't translate directly to channels you can watch and ultimately it is the variety of programming that counts, isn't it?

Generally speaking, installers know how many slots they need to hit and not how many satellites, transponders or channels there are. Long-timers may know, but it certainly isn't a requirement.

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#25 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:27 AM

It's like saying.... "Dish has 7 buses and DirecTV has 5 buses". But, Dish may have 7 buses that can carry 30 passengers, where DirecTV has 5 buses that can carry 45, giving DirecTV the ability to carry 15 more passengers.

While a pretty apt analogy, rows on an airplane might be better. With respect to HD programming, DIRECTV has six seats (channels) in each row (transponder) and DISH has 8 seats and 33-50% more rows.

DIRECTV 12 has 24 transponders that each carry "up to" six HD channels while Ciel 2 (129W) has 32 transponders that each carry up to eight HD channels.

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#26 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

The airplane also gives you an idea of how more cramped the Dish "seats" are.

#27 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:58 AM

If the broadcasting isn't "in the public interest", it doesn't really matter.DIRECTV has at least two small complements of transponder capability (RB1 and RB2-A) that can't effectively be used to broadcast conventional programming and four transponders at 110W that they choose not to use for same. Transponders don't translate directly to channels you can watch and ultimately it is the variety of programming that counts, isn't it?

Generally speaking, installers know how many slots they need to hit and not how many satellites, transponders or channels there are. Long-timers may know, but it certainly isn't a requirement.


To note:

"RB-1" doesn't exist yet;

But will be a full CONUS beam Reverse-DBS band payload carried aboard the future D14/RB-1 satellite at 99w scheduled for launch in late 2013 to early 2014. And it will carry conventional programming from 18 transponders.

"RB-2A" is an R-DBS payload aboard D12 at 103w providing 18 transponders to 4 spotbeams for purposes unknown.

The four areas covered by its spotbeams are maybe used as test markets for a final evaluation of nationwide R-DBS service perhaps?

And there are three Ku transponders at 110w (28, 30, and 32) that are apparently preparing to relay HD programming to Puerto Rico.

#28 OFFLINE   domingos35

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:05 AM

The airplane also gives you an idea of how more cramped the Dish "seats" are.


doesn't matter. Dish's HD is still better

#29 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:14 AM

doesn't matter. Dish's HD is still better


If by better you actually mean worse...then yes! It isn't possible for Dish's HD to beat HD via DirecTV.

#30 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:23 AM

Thanks. I was a bit off I guess =)


BOTH of you are WRONG for Ka tpn's bandwidth !

See my posts in respond to VOS request in other thread.

All the thread's buzz with sats/tpn/MHz/channel's count is coming to aggregate BITRATE if you want meaningful comparison.

That would be real 'pipe' measure !

#31 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:48 AM

BOTH of you are WRONG for Ka tpn's bandwidth !

See my posts in respond to VOS request in other thread.

All the thread's buzz with sats/tpn/MHz/channel's count is coming to aggregate BITRATE if you want meaningful comparison.

That would be real 'pipe' measure !


Well P. Smith, unless DIRECTV lied to the FCC in their LOA filings, those are the actual Ka transponder bandwidths I quoted. Though for the Spaceways 62.5 MHz only applies to the Ka-hi band in non-processor or "bent-pipe" mode.

However, how efficiently that bandwidth is utilized to provide a given data throughput is another story of course. Beyond just bandwidth, Symbol Rate, FEC, modulation type and level, power output, etc. all play important roles in that area.

#32 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:02 PM

BOTH of you are WRONG for Ka tpn's bandwidth !

See my posts in respond to VOS request in other thread.

All the thread's buzz with sats/tpn/MHz/channel's count is coming to aggregate BITRATE if you want meaningful comparison.

That would be real 'pipe' measure !


USABLE bitrate is more relevant to the quality of service. But even there, I remember when Dish Network experimented with squeezing down FEC to squeeze one more channel per transponder (and these were SD channels on Ku transponders). It worked...until it rained. The smaller FEC resulted in rainfade starting in lighter precipitation and lasting longer. This was not an improvment in overall customer experience.

So, there is no real "absolute" measure of comparison. If you could compare apples to apples, perhaps there would be. But Dish and DirecTV optimize their service differently - differently enough to make all comparisons relative (or at least approximations).

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#33 OFFLINE   ATARI

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:21 PM

doesn't matter. Dish's HD is still better


Having just switched to Dish, I can say that Dish HD PQ is almost as good as DTV. Overall. ESPN is the same. HBO is almost the same. Locals are not as good.

However, Dish SD PQ is far superior to DTV.

#34 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:36 PM

Having just switched to Dish, I can say that Dish HD PQ is almost as good as DTV. Overall. ESPN is the same. HBO is almost the same. Locals are not as good.


Since ESPN HD is a 1280x720p signal I'd guess Dish doesn't need to downrez it like they do with 1080i channels.

See post My Setup for configuration info.


#35 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:04 PM

Well P. Smith, unless DIRECTV lied to the FCC in their LOA filings, those are the actual Ka transponder bandwidths I quoted. Though for the Spaceways 62.5 MHz only applies to the Ka-hi band in non-processor or "bent-pipe" mode.

However, how efficiently that bandwidth is utilized to provide a given data throughput is another story of course. Beyond just bandwidth, Symbol Rate, FEC, modulation type and level, power output, etc. all play important roles in that area.

Unless you did read that FCC docs or at least these quotas what I did in other thread answering to VOS an you (?).
I have proof of the numbers on Spectrum Analyzer screen. Against insufficient quotas from FCC doc. Would you concur measured real time data ?

#36 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:07 PM

But Dish and DirecTV optimize their service differently - differently enough to make all comparisons relative (or at least approximations).

You are diverting the discussion into blurring "optimization" aspect. Before that we must settle major numbers. Comparable numbers.
At least it would common ground to a comparison. As I mentioned everything above is not the numbers to final account; these are just initial parameters to start calculate the total bandwidth on each provider before compare.

#37 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:08 PM

Unless you did read that FCC docs or at least these quotas what I did in other thread answering to VOS an you (?).
I have proof of the numbers on Spectrum Analyzer screen. Against insufficient quotas from FCC doc. Would you concur measured real time data ?

I always go with measured data.
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#38 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 02:11 PM

Unless you did read that FCC docs or at least these quotas what I did in other thread answering to VOS an you (?).
I have proof of the numbers on Spectrum Analyzer screen. Against insufficient quotas from FCC doc. Would you concur measured real time data ?


But I don't see how the measured data rates and other parameters you list in that thread are at odds with the quoted bandwidths I listed.

#39 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:36 PM

36 MHz is real (and by FCC it's one of three values) for DTV's setting of SW-1 and SW-2, your [62.5 MHz] is pure FCC paper's possible value.

To note:

The Spaceway Tp. bandwidth is 62.5 MHz, D10-12 is 36 MHz ± 2 MHz guard band and Ku is 24 MHz.



#40 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:22 PM

36 MHz is real (and by FCC it's one of three values) for DTV's setting of SW-1 and SW-2, your [62.5 MHz] is pure FCC paper's possible value.


Well from the Narrative for SW1 and 2 (on p.15 of the SW2 narrative I'm quoting from at the moment):

... For non-processor operations, the 19.7-20.2 GHz band can be viewed as supporting eight contiguous 62.5 MHz channels. Multiple channels can be received in a given uplink beam, and these channels can be re-used among uplink beams, subject to the requirement that a minimum re-use distance be maintained between co-frequency/co-polarized beams. Once received, these 62.5 MHz channels can be individually frequency translated to any one of eight contiguous 62.5 MHz downlink channels and routed to specific downlink beams. In the downlink direction, the phased array antenna is capable of producing multiple downlink beams (up to 24 of them) of virtually any shape. The satellite will therefore be operated so as to optimize the downlink coverage in support of the overall traffic being carried. In this mode, the downlink emission designator for the band 19.7-20.2 GHz will be 24M0G7W with an associated allocated bandwidth of 24 MHz. The satellite output filtering for the 19.7-20.2 GHz band for non-processor operations is shown in Appendix D, Figure D-4. Note that in this case, the satellite output filtering is actually performed at baseband, as all received channels are converted to baseband before being upconverted to their final output frequency.


Also the document refers to three emission designators quoted as:

... 24M0G7W, 36M0G7W and 54M0G7W with associated allocated bandwidths of 24 MHz, 36 MHz and 54 MHz, respectively


pertaining to the up/downlinks of the two 165 MHz wide-band transponders the SWs use on Ka-lo Band for backhauling purposes.

Are you sure you are not confusing those with the Ka-hi band used by subscribers?

As quoted above only one bandwidth 62.5 MHz and designator 24M0G7W is listed for those available to customers.

And I admit is a bit confusing since for a 62.5 MHz bandwidth only a 24 MHz wide transmission is stated as being supported by it? :confused:




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