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Is it true DTV has more satellites than dish?


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88 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

The airplane also gives you an idea of how more cramped the Dish "seats" are.

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#27 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:58 AM

If the broadcasting isn't "in the public interest", it doesn't really matter.DIRECTV has at least two small complements of transponder capability (RB1 and RB2-A) that can't effectively be used to broadcast conventional programming and four transponders at 110W that they choose not to use for same. Transponders don't translate directly to channels you can watch and ultimately it is the variety of programming that counts, isn't it?

Generally speaking, installers know how many slots they need to hit and not how many satellites, transponders or channels there are. Long-timers may know, but it certainly isn't a requirement.


To note:

"RB-1" doesn't exist yet;

But will be a full CONUS beam Reverse-DBS band payload carried aboard the future D14/RB-1 satellite at 99w scheduled for launch in late 2013 to early 2014. And it will carry conventional programming from 18 transponders.

"RB-2A" is an R-DBS payload aboard D12 at 103w providing 18 transponders to 4 spotbeams for purposes unknown.

The four areas covered by its spotbeams are maybe used as test markets for a final evaluation of nationwide R-DBS service perhaps?

And there are three Ku transponders at 110w (28, 30, and 32) that are apparently preparing to relay HD programming to Puerto Rico.

#28 OFFLINE   domingos35

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:05 AM

The airplane also gives you an idea of how more cramped the Dish "seats" are.


doesn't matter. Dish's HD is still better

#29 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:14 AM

doesn't matter. Dish's HD is still better


If by better you actually mean worse...then yes! It isn't possible for Dish's HD to beat HD via DirecTV.

#30 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:23 AM

Thanks. I was a bit off I guess =)


BOTH of you are WRONG for Ka tpn's bandwidth !

See my posts in respond to VOS request in other thread.

All the thread's buzz with sats/tpn/MHz/channel's count is coming to aggregate BITRATE if you want meaningful comparison.

That would be real 'pipe' measure !

#31 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:48 AM

BOTH of you are WRONG for Ka tpn's bandwidth !

See my posts in respond to VOS request in other thread.

All the thread's buzz with sats/tpn/MHz/channel's count is coming to aggregate BITRATE if you want meaningful comparison.

That would be real 'pipe' measure !


Well P. Smith, unless DIRECTV lied to the FCC in their LOA filings, those are the actual Ka transponder bandwidths I quoted. Though for the Spaceways 62.5 MHz only applies to the Ka-hi band in non-processor or "bent-pipe" mode.

However, how efficiently that bandwidth is utilized to provide a given data throughput is another story of course. Beyond just bandwidth, Symbol Rate, FEC, modulation type and level, power output, etc. all play important roles in that area.

#32 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:02 PM

BOTH of you are WRONG for Ka tpn's bandwidth !

See my posts in respond to VOS request in other thread.

All the thread's buzz with sats/tpn/MHz/channel's count is coming to aggregate BITRATE if you want meaningful comparison.

That would be real 'pipe' measure !


USABLE bitrate is more relevant to the quality of service. But even there, I remember when Dish Network experimented with squeezing down FEC to squeeze one more channel per transponder (and these were SD channels on Ku transponders). It worked...until it rained. The smaller FEC resulted in rainfade starting in lighter precipitation and lasting longer. This was not an improvment in overall customer experience.

So, there is no real "absolute" measure of comparison. If you could compare apples to apples, perhaps there would be. But Dish and DirecTV optimize their service differently - differently enough to make all comparisons relative (or at least approximations).

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#33 OFFLINE   ATARI

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:21 PM

doesn't matter. Dish's HD is still better


Having just switched to Dish, I can say that Dish HD PQ is almost as good as DTV. Overall. ESPN is the same. HBO is almost the same. Locals are not as good.

However, Dish SD PQ is far superior to DTV.

#34 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:36 PM

Having just switched to Dish, I can say that Dish HD PQ is almost as good as DTV. Overall. ESPN is the same. HBO is almost the same. Locals are not as good.


Since ESPN HD is a 1280x720p signal I'd guess Dish doesn't need to downrez it like they do with 1080i channels.

See post My Setup for configuration info.


#35 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:04 PM

Well P. Smith, unless DIRECTV lied to the FCC in their LOA filings, those are the actual Ka transponder bandwidths I quoted. Though for the Spaceways 62.5 MHz only applies to the Ka-hi band in non-processor or "bent-pipe" mode.

However, how efficiently that bandwidth is utilized to provide a given data throughput is another story of course. Beyond just bandwidth, Symbol Rate, FEC, modulation type and level, power output, etc. all play important roles in that area.

Unless you did read that FCC docs or at least these quotas what I did in other thread answering to VOS an you (?).
I have proof of the numbers on Spectrum Analyzer screen. Against insufficient quotas from FCC doc. Would you concur measured real time data ?

#36 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:07 PM

But Dish and DirecTV optimize their service differently - differently enough to make all comparisons relative (or at least approximations).

You are diverting the discussion into blurring "optimization" aspect. Before that we must settle major numbers. Comparable numbers.
At least it would common ground to a comparison. As I mentioned everything above is not the numbers to final account; these are just initial parameters to start calculate the total bandwidth on each provider before compare.

#37 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:08 PM

Unless you did read that FCC docs or at least these quotas what I did in other thread answering to VOS an you (?).
I have proof of the numbers on Spectrum Analyzer screen. Against insufficient quotas from FCC doc. Would you concur measured real time data ?

I always go with measured data.
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#38 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 02:11 PM

Unless you did read that FCC docs or at least these quotas what I did in other thread answering to VOS an you (?).
I have proof of the numbers on Spectrum Analyzer screen. Against insufficient quotas from FCC doc. Would you concur measured real time data ?


But I don't see how the measured data rates and other parameters you list in that thread are at odds with the quoted bandwidths I listed.

#39 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:36 PM

36 MHz is real (and by FCC it's one of three values) for DTV's setting of SW-1 and SW-2, your [62.5 MHz] is pure FCC paper's possible value.

To note:

The Spaceway Tp. bandwidth is 62.5 MHz, D10-12 is 36 MHz ± 2 MHz guard band and Ku is 24 MHz.



#40 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:22 PM

36 MHz is real (and by FCC it's one of three values) for DTV's setting of SW-1 and SW-2, your [62.5 MHz] is pure FCC paper's possible value.


Well from the Narrative for SW1 and 2 (on p.15 of the SW2 narrative I'm quoting from at the moment):

... For non-processor operations, the 19.7-20.2 GHz band can be viewed as supporting eight contiguous 62.5 MHz channels. Multiple channels can be received in a given uplink beam, and these channels can be re-used among uplink beams, subject to the requirement that a minimum re-use distance be maintained between co-frequency/co-polarized beams. Once received, these 62.5 MHz channels can be individually frequency translated to any one of eight contiguous 62.5 MHz downlink channels and routed to specific downlink beams. In the downlink direction, the phased array antenna is capable of producing multiple downlink beams (up to 24 of them) of virtually any shape. The satellite will therefore be operated so as to optimize the downlink coverage in support of the overall traffic being carried. In this mode, the downlink emission designator for the band 19.7-20.2 GHz will be 24M0G7W with an associated allocated bandwidth of 24 MHz. The satellite output filtering for the 19.7-20.2 GHz band for non-processor operations is shown in Appendix D, Figure D-4. Note that in this case, the satellite output filtering is actually performed at baseband, as all received channels are converted to baseband before being upconverted to their final output frequency.


Also the document refers to three emission designators quoted as:

... 24M0G7W, 36M0G7W and 54M0G7W with associated allocated bandwidths of 24 MHz, 36 MHz and 54 MHz, respectively


pertaining to the up/downlinks of the two 165 MHz wide-band transponders the SWs use on Ka-lo Band for backhauling purposes.

Are you sure you are not confusing those with the Ka-hi band used by subscribers?

As quoted above only one bandwidth 62.5 MHz and designator 24M0G7W is listed for those available to customers.

And I admit is a bit confusing since for a 62.5 MHz bandwidth only a 24 MHz wide transmission is stated as being supported by it? :confused:

#41 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:19 PM

Are you sure you are not confusing... :confused:

When you're tapping into the LNB output with a spectrum analyzer, you don't get that confused.
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#42 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:13 PM

When you're tapping into the LNB output with a spectrum analyzer, you don't get that confused.


That's how I got the number - 36 MHz - last time.

#43 OFFLINE   n3vino

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 06:22 AM

Since ESPN HD is a 1280x720p signal I'd guess Dish doesn't need to downrez it like they do with 1080i channels.

Are you saying that Dish only sends out 720P? I thought that all providers send out resolutions as they are.

Having just switched to Dish, I can say that Dish HD PQ is almost as good as DTV. Overall. ESPN is the same. HBO is almost the same. Locals are not as good.

However, Dish SD PQ is far superior to DTV.


One of the arguments is that Dish uses MPEG2 and D* uses MPEG4 and that's why D*'s HD is somewhat better. In checking out Blue Ray, some studios use MPEG2 and some use MPEG4. However, MPEG2 does not handle low bit rates well, therefore it is necessary to use a higher bit rate. MPEG4 can handle lower bit rates much better, so I guess that's why sometimes we see lower bit rates on some blue rays, and high on others, and why some blue rays are not as good as others.

If anyone knows, how does that work in relation to Dish and D* and or the broadcasters concerning HD and SD? Do the SAT companies tweak the bitrates, where dish uses a higher bit rate then D* making SD better on dish?

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#44 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 06:29 AM

Are you saying that Dish only sends out 720P? I thought that all providers send out resolutions as they are.


No, only saying that Dish and DIRECTV ESPN HD might look the same since it's a 720p channel and Dish doesn't need to downrez it like they do with 1080i (1920x180i downrez to 1440x1080i).

See post My Setup for configuration info.


#45 OFFLINE   HobbyTalk

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 07:56 AM

One of the arguments is that Dish uses MPEG2 and D* uses MPEG4 and that's why D*'s HD is somewhat better.


All of Dish's programming on the eastern arc sats is MPG4.
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#46 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:07 PM

All the thread's buzz with sats/tpn/MHz/channel's count is coming to aggregate BITRATE if you want meaningful comparison.

When you post data regarding aggregate bitrate, we can discuss it. If the information isn't available, bringing it up only muddies the water.

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#47 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:17 PM

Everything is posted - take it. Compare, do your meaningful analysis.
See James Long site, Sixto data, gct's posts (use my info too) - all sat/tpns has known modulation, SR, FEC to calculate bandwidth for each tpn and whole fleet for each provider.

#48 OFFLINE   TBoneit

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:20 PM

To add to HobbyTalk's reply.

Both services have Mpeg2 and Mpeg4 channels.
Most DirecTv SD channels are Mpeg 2.

DishNetworks Western Arc SD is Mpeg 2 and their Eastern Arc SD is all Mpeg4
Both services HD is Mpeg4

Or to put it another way dishnetwork is also ahead of DirecTV on going to all MPeg4 since that is all they have on their eastern Arc.

Is that clear enough?
TB


Are you saying that Dish only sends out 720P? I thought that all providers send out resolutions as they are.

One of the arguments is that Dish uses MPEG2 and D* uses MPEG4 and that's why D*'s HD is somewhat better. In checking out Blue Ray, some studios use MPEG2 and some use MPEG4. However, MPEG2 does not handle low bit rates well, therefore it is necessary to use a higher bit rate. MPEG4 can handle lower bit rates much better, so I guess that's why sometimes we see lower bit rates on some blue rays, and high on others, and why some blue rays are not as good as others.

If anyone knows, how does that work in relation to Dish and D* and or the broadcasters concerning HD and SD? Do the SAT companies tweak the bitrates, where dish uses a higher bit rate then D* making SD better on dish?


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#49 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:27 PM

Add to that 'cloud' of info - some channels (regardless of a provider) sourced as 720p.
DTV is doing downres SD to 352x480 ... Bandwidth of many channels dynamically changing three/four folds sometimes...
A lot of aspects to consider.

But let me repeat again - one base is valid to compare the two providers' sat fleet - total bandwidth. The "pipe" size.
When you get the number, then you could go up with efficiency of using it for each provider including compression algos, resolution, bandwidth of each channel, statmux compression, etc

#50 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:32 PM

Everything is posted - take it. Compare, do your meaningful analysis.

I can't recall seeing average bitrates for individual channels much less aggregate bitrates for transponders. Can you assemble the data in table form so that an apples-to-apples comparison can be done?

I still think you're confusing the issue by demanding compilation and analysis of data that isn't readily available.

Do you know whether the multiplexers employed necessarily use all available bandwidth all the time?

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