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Is it true DTV has more satellites than dish?


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88 replies to this topic

#51 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:45 PM

I can't recall

Maybe you should stop right here and call yourself ahead.
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#52 OFFLINE   evan_s

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:54 PM

Are you saying that Dish only sends out 720P? I thought that all providers send out resolutions as they are.


Last I saw dish sent all 1080i content as 1440x1080i instead of 1920x1080i. Allows them to use less bandwidth with out getting too many compression artifacts but does add some softness to the image.

As has been mentioned DirecTV and dish both uses MPEG4 for all their HD at this point.

Verizon uses mpeg2 for HD and passes all the OTA channels as is with out doing any recompressing or rate shaping.

Comcast and other cable companies use mpeg 2 HD but recompress it or use rate shaping to fit 3 channels per QAM channel instead of 2.

#53 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:58 PM

I can't recall seeing average bitrates for individual channels much less aggregate bitrates for transponders. Can you assemble the data in table form so that an apples-to-apples comparison can be done?

I still think you're confusing the issue by demanding compilation and analysis of data that isn't readily available.

Do you know whether the multiplexers employed necessarily use all available bandwidth all the time?


Can you assemble the data in table form so that an apples-to-apples comparison can be done?

Everything is posted - take it. Compare, do your meaningful analysis.
See James Long site, Sixto data, gct's posts (use my info too) - all sat/tpns has known modulation, SR, FEC to calculate bandwidth for each tpn and whole fleet for each provider.



#54 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:59 PM

But let me repeat again - one base is valid to compare the two providers' sat fleet - total bandwidth. The "pipe" size.

Perhaps ... but with DISH operating parallel systems one basically would be comparing three fleets.

The "what do they do with that bandwidth" question makes it much more complicated. Even beyond converting the potential pipe size to current pipe size and dividing it by current data rates. Much of the argument comes down to the choices DISH and DirecTV have made as to what to stick in that pipe. "Basic channels" "sports channels" "premium channels" "PPV". How much space is available and how much more could be put to use can be an interesting technical discussion, but what is done with the space is what most people care about.

Yes, I can tell you that a particular transponder is 8PSK using a signal rate of 21500 and 2/3 FEC ... and math can tell how many bits that is. But the raw number of bits available does not tell anyone how it is used to serve customers the content they desire. And whether or not the customers are served is what most customers care about.

That and whether or not their dish can be mounted where it can see the satellites required. :)

#55 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

but what is done with the space is what most people care about.

That would be valid discussion only when we establish the base - 'pipeline(s)' size, first.

#56 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:16 PM

That would be valid discussion only when we establish the base - 'pipeline(s)' size, first.

I disagree. The content people care about has been a valid ongoing discussion on this site for many years and will continue to be so (in appropriate threads).

One does not need to know the pipe size to know if a service meets the customer's needs. The pipe size is a good excuse for NOT meeting the customer's needs - but an excuse is an excuse, not a substitution for meeting a customer's needs. (In other words ... if a customer complains about channel XXY not being carried the pipe size could be used as an excuse for channel XXY not being carried but it doesn't satisfy the "need" for channel XXY.)

#57 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:34 PM

Actually, we are benting the discussion in our own but different directions... See post #1.

I think my deviation in the discussion got an influence by post#15 ...

Edited by P Smith, 28 July 2012 - 01:40 PM.


#58 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

Actually, we are benting the discussion in our own but different directions... See post #1.

I did ... it was basically a LOS complaint with an incorrect answer given by an installer. (It isn't the number of satellites that count, but where they are located - and whether a location on the ground can be found to serve a particular customer.)

I think my deviation in the discussion got an influence by post#15 ...

Actually post #5: "The SAT count isn't as important as the transponder count."

Still a little off as it is the satellite location that really matters when it comes to LOS. (And the licensed/leased transponder counts that followed are off as well.)

Bit counting can be fun ... but there are much bigger influences.

#59 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:06 PM

Actually post #5: "The SAT count isn't as important as the transponder count."

Since that looks like mine,

"The point" was that counting SATs [at one location] wasn't as important as how many tps are being used, from that location.

Now you've just wondered off to the "how many channels" direction which wasn't in the first post.

Hey I've got 10000000 channels and all but four, are the home shopping channels WooHoo
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#60 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:13 PM

To add to HobbyTalk's reply.

Both services have Mpeg2 and Mpeg4 channels.
Most DirecTv SD channels are Mpeg 2.

DishNetworks Western Arc SD is Mpeg 2 and their Eastern Arc SD is all Mpeg4
Both services HD is Mpeg4

Or to put it another way dishnetwork is also ahead of DirecTV on going to all MPeg4 since that is all they have on their eastern Arc.

Is that clear enough?
TB


I wouldn't say either is really ahead of the other in moving to all mpeg4. Does dish have an sd and an Hi Definition feed of some channels on the eastern arc? If so, going all mpeg4 hasn't gained them anything meaningful in bandwidth (except maybe a little better pq for sd) because they haven't gone all Hi Definition equipment that can down res for non Hi Definition customers. That's when they will be able to move ahead and save bandwidth, and eliminate all dupe channels. Or have they done that already? Of course, since they also have to duplicate everything on two separate arcs, they have a more difficult road overall, but have an easier road for getting at least half the nation to all Hi Definition equipment.

Of course, then adding the bandwidth, they could choose to either go full res ( as they should do) or adding more channels, but then realize the east and west may have different channels, which could be confusing to some.

Both companies face difficult Decisions on when it makes sense and how to move people to all Hi Definition mpeg4 equipment that eventually will free up more bandwidth for them. And the path for each company is likely to be a bit different.

#61 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

Counting SATs:
Do you count locations?
Do you count SATs clustered at the same location?
Or do you simply count useful tps, their bandwidth, "and then" get down to channel counts?
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#62 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

Perhaps ... but with DISH operating parallel systems one basically would be comparing three fleets.

The "what do they do with that bandwidth" question makes it much more complicated. Even beyond converting the potential pipe size to current pipe size and dividing it by current data rates. Much of the argument comes down to the choices DISH and DirecTV have made as to what to stick in that pipe. "Basic channels" "sports channels" "premium channels" "PPV". How much space is available and how much more could be put to use can be an interesting technical discussion, but what is done with the space is what most people care about.

Yes, I can tell you that a particular transponder is 8PSK using a signal rate of 21500 and 2/3 FEC ... and math can tell how many bits that is. But the raw number of bits available does not tell anyone how it is used to serve customers the content they desire. And whether or not the customers are served is what most customers care about.

That and whether or not their dish can be mounted where it can see the satellites required. :)


Is dish still broadcasting separate sd and Hi Definition versions of channels on the eastern arc?

#63 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:21 PM

Counting SATs:
Do you count locations?
Do you count SATs clustered at the same location?
Or do you simply count useful tps, their bandwidth, "and then" get down to channel counts?


Really, I would think the important thing to count is how many transponders they can use, and how many channels they can get on all those, to get theoretical amount of channels they can put up, and then count to see how many channels they actually broadcast. Other than those two things, does anything else matter at the end point? What they have, and what they can add... Of course, we will never know for sure the actual can add numbers for either company, because we will never know all the details and capabilities. Just look at how now DIRECTV is having six channels a transponder on some satelites.

#64 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:29 PM

Now you've just wondered off to the "how many channels" direction which wasn't in the first post.

Actually, in relationship to the first post my last post summed up the answer:
It isn't the number of satellites that count, but where they are located - and whether a location on the ground can be found to serve a particular customer.

I don't believe I have mentioned channel count here ... only opposition to using bit counting as the start of a comparison.

Hey I've got 10000000 channels and all but four, are the home shopping channels WooHoo

Fortunately no provider is like that and no one would take that as a serious comment. Content matters.

Counting SATs:
Do you count locations?
Do you count SATs clustered at the same location?
Or do you simply count useful tps, their bandwidth, "and then" get down to channel counts?

Transponders is a good level to start at ... if one must compare at a technical level beyond what most customers would care about. But does saying one provider has their transponders configured to transmit 3.1 trillion bits of information vs the other provider having their transponders configured to transmit 3.2 trillion really make a difference?

Customer satisfaction isn't defined by the capacity for bits of information. It is defined by how those bits are used.

#65 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:30 PM

Is dish still broadcasting separate sd and Hi Definition versions of channels on the eastern arc?

Yes ... except for locals where the SD is pulled when a HD version is added.

#66 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:39 PM

Yes ... except for locals where the SD is pulled when a HD version is added.


Wait, does all their mpeg4 equipment pick up Hi Definition feeds and have the ability to down covert for sd customers? If so, why on earth do they have the dupes?

#67 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

Wait, does all their mpeg4 equipment pick up Hi Definition feeds and have the ability to down covert for sd customers? If so, why on earth do they have the dupes?

DISH only knows for sure. There may be contractual issues or differences between the feeds (such as logos and popups) that the providers want to keep separate. A lot of SD channels are now simple center crops or letterboxes of the newer HD feeds and the receivers all have SD outputs. But providers have their wishes.

#68 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 03:08 PM

Really, I would think the important thing to count is how many transponders they can use, and how many channels they can get on all those, to get theoretical amount of channels they can put up, and then count to see how many channels they actually broadcast. Other than those two things, does anything else matter at the end point? What they have, and what they can add... Of course, we will never know for sure the actual can add numbers for either company, because we will never know all the details and capabilities. Just look at how now DIRECTV is having six channels a transponder on some satelites.

You can't count transponders as-is for start counting channels. All of them have different "pipesize" what is exactly a base for start conting channels.
Sats and tpns are VERY VERY rough estimation - to much variations between different sats for just one provider [DTV Ku and Ka] to use them as-is.

#69 OFFLINE   HobbyTalk

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

Wait, does all their mpeg4 equipment pick up Hi Definition feeds and have the ability to down covert for sd customers? If so, why on earth do they have the dupes?


The only receivers that can be installed on the eastern arc are the VIP (or better) receivers. All of them do HD. I suppose a lot of SD customers complain when their programming is letterboxed on their 4:3 screens when HD programming is displayed on an SD TV. Heck people complain that some broadcasts just crop their HD programming for SD instead of pan and scan. You can't please them all :)
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#70 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 03:19 PM

are the VIP (or better) receivers

- mean ViP and XiP

#71 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:58 PM

Actually, in relationship to the first post my last post summed up the answer:
It isn't the number of satellites that count, but where they are located - and whether a location on the ground can be found to serve a particular customer.

maybe you saw.read more into the first post than I, but location(s) didn't seem to be the question.

I don't believe I have mentioned channel count here ... only opposition to using bit counting as the start of a comparison.

Fortunately no provider is like that and no one would take that as a serious comment. Content matters.

You seemed to go this direction, but channels that customers wanted was what was important, so my billion home shopping channels was meant as a joke [aka not to be taken seriouly].

Transponders is a good level to start at ...

which was all I was suggesting.
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#72 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:18 PM

Just one example what would rain on your parade: you can't count together Ka tpn DVB-S2|8PSK|30 Msps|3/4 and Ku tpn DSS|QPSK|20 Msps|6/7.

Technical (OK, scientific) way to get start - get common denominator. It should be a bandwidth: XX and YY Mbps.

#73 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 03:17 AM

Just one example what would rain on your parade: you can't count together Ka tpn DVB-S2|8PSK|30 Msps|3/4 and Ku tpn DSS|QPSK|20 Msps|6/7.

Technical (OK, scientific) way to get start - get common denominator. It should be a bandwidth: XX and YY Mbps.


Actually P. Smith, for digital transmission I see the SR (or Baud rate) as the "usual" main parameter determining bandwidth, instead of the bit rate, whether throughput or aggregate, that's being transmitted through it.

For instance in the examples you cite above, irrespective of their differing modulation levels and FEC code rates, the 30 and 20 Msps are both just a few percentage points less than the assigned 36 and 24 MHz bandwidths noted in their official emission designators.

Now as I wrote earlier, there are exceptions to this general rule in some cases as with the Spaceways' stated 62.5 MHz tp. bandwidth (non-processor mode) quoted in the LOA narrative, yet it list an emission designator for them of 24M0G7W which is only a 24 MHz wide transmission.

For an alleged 62.5 MHz tp. bandwidth, I would have "normally" expected an emission designator of around 58M0G7W for it or something.

#74 OFFLINE   HobbyTalk

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:12 AM

- mean ViP and XiP


Should have said "newer" :)
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#75 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:55 AM

You are diverting the discussion into blurring "optimization" aspect. Before that we must settle major numbers. Comparable numbers.
At least it would common ground to a comparison. As I mentioned everything above is not the numbers to final account; these are just initial parameters to start calculate the total bandwidth on each provider before compare.


But how do you count the numbers?

Dish has duplication of content between their eastern and western arcs, so simply measuring aggregate "pipe size" doesn't work As a point of comparison unless you eliminate the duplicate capacity.

DirecTV has some currently idle capacity (apparently) so should that be included or excluded?

The fundamental question is what are you trying to measure? A theoretical (but I would submit meaningless) measure of aggregate capacity? Or are you trying measure total delivered bandwidth at a given point? Or perhaps total number of channels?

My point is that for each of the possible things you might measure DirecTV will "win" some and Dish will win others. For those that are interested in satellite design the type and number of transponders, the footprints they generate, the encoding and modulation of the signals they transmit and the design of the satellites that carry them may be of concern. I am such a person. However, I simply caution that the differences between the providers in all these areas are simply that - differences. Neither is "better" or "superior", and there are enough variables that making broad generalizations like "who has more capacity" or "more satellites" are decidedly not simple questions to answer.

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