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Is it true DTV has more satellites than dish?


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88 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:19 PM

Are you sure you are not confusing... :confused:

When you're tapping into the LNB output with a spectrum analyzer, you don't get that confused.
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#42 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:13 PM

When you're tapping into the LNB output with a spectrum analyzer, you don't get that confused.


That's how I got the number - 36 MHz - last time.

#43 OFFLINE   n3vino

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 06:22 AM

Since ESPN HD is a 1280x720p signal I'd guess Dish doesn't need to downrez it like they do with 1080i channels.

Are you saying that Dish only sends out 720P? I thought that all providers send out resolutions as they are.

Having just switched to Dish, I can say that Dish HD PQ is almost as good as DTV. Overall. ESPN is the same. HBO is almost the same. Locals are not as good.

However, Dish SD PQ is far superior to DTV.


One of the arguments is that Dish uses MPEG2 and D* uses MPEG4 and that's why D*'s HD is somewhat better. In checking out Blue Ray, some studios use MPEG2 and some use MPEG4. However, MPEG2 does not handle low bit rates well, therefore it is necessary to use a higher bit rate. MPEG4 can handle lower bit rates much better, so I guess that's why sometimes we see lower bit rates on some blue rays, and high on others, and why some blue rays are not as good as others.

If anyone knows, how does that work in relation to Dish and D* and or the broadcasters concerning HD and SD? Do the SAT companies tweak the bitrates, where dish uses a higher bit rate then D* making SD better on dish?

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#44 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 06:29 AM

Are you saying that Dish only sends out 720P? I thought that all providers send out resolutions as they are.


No, only saying that Dish and DIRECTV ESPN HD might look the same since it's a 720p channel and Dish doesn't need to downrez it like they do with 1080i (1920x180i downrez to 1440x1080i).

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#45 OFFLINE   HobbyTalk

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 07:56 AM

One of the arguments is that Dish uses MPEG2 and D* uses MPEG4 and that's why D*'s HD is somewhat better.


All of Dish's programming on the eastern arc sats is MPG4.
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#46 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:07 PM

All the thread's buzz with sats/tpn/MHz/channel's count is coming to aggregate BITRATE if you want meaningful comparison.

When you post data regarding aggregate bitrate, we can discuss it. If the information isn't available, bringing it up only muddies the water.

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#47 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:17 PM

Everything is posted - take it. Compare, do your meaningful analysis.
See James Long site, Sixto data, gct's posts (use my info too) - all sat/tpns has known modulation, SR, FEC to calculate bandwidth for each tpn and whole fleet for each provider.

#48 OFFLINE   TBoneit

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:20 PM

To add to HobbyTalk's reply.

Both services have Mpeg2 and Mpeg4 channels.
Most DirecTv SD channels are Mpeg 2.

DishNetworks Western Arc SD is Mpeg 2 and their Eastern Arc SD is all Mpeg4
Both services HD is Mpeg4

Or to put it another way dishnetwork is also ahead of DirecTV on going to all MPeg4 since that is all they have on their eastern Arc.

Is that clear enough?
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Are you saying that Dish only sends out 720P? I thought that all providers send out resolutions as they are.

One of the arguments is that Dish uses MPEG2 and D* uses MPEG4 and that's why D*'s HD is somewhat better. In checking out Blue Ray, some studios use MPEG2 and some use MPEG4. However, MPEG2 does not handle low bit rates well, therefore it is necessary to use a higher bit rate. MPEG4 can handle lower bit rates much better, so I guess that's why sometimes we see lower bit rates on some blue rays, and high on others, and why some blue rays are not as good as others.

If anyone knows, how does that work in relation to Dish and D* and or the broadcasters concerning HD and SD? Do the SAT companies tweak the bitrates, where dish uses a higher bit rate then D* making SD better on dish?


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#49 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:27 PM

Add to that 'cloud' of info - some channels (regardless of a provider) sourced as 720p.
DTV is doing downres SD to 352x480 ... Bandwidth of many channels dynamically changing three/four folds sometimes...
A lot of aspects to consider.

But let me repeat again - one base is valid to compare the two providers' sat fleet - total bandwidth. The "pipe" size.
When you get the number, then you could go up with efficiency of using it for each provider including compression algos, resolution, bandwidth of each channel, statmux compression, etc

#50 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:32 PM

Everything is posted - take it. Compare, do your meaningful analysis.

I can't recall seeing average bitrates for individual channels much less aggregate bitrates for transponders. Can you assemble the data in table form so that an apples-to-apples comparison can be done?

I still think you're confusing the issue by demanding compilation and analysis of data that isn't readily available.

Do you know whether the multiplexers employed necessarily use all available bandwidth all the time?

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#51 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:45 PM

I can't recall

Maybe you should stop right here and call yourself ahead.
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#52 OFFLINE   evan_s

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:54 PM

Are you saying that Dish only sends out 720P? I thought that all providers send out resolutions as they are.


Last I saw dish sent all 1080i content as 1440x1080i instead of 1920x1080i. Allows them to use less bandwidth with out getting too many compression artifacts but does add some softness to the image.

As has been mentioned DirecTV and dish both uses MPEG4 for all their HD at this point.

Verizon uses mpeg2 for HD and passes all the OTA channels as is with out doing any recompressing or rate shaping.

Comcast and other cable companies use mpeg 2 HD but recompress it or use rate shaping to fit 3 channels per QAM channel instead of 2.

#53 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:58 PM

I can't recall seeing average bitrates for individual channels much less aggregate bitrates for transponders. Can you assemble the data in table form so that an apples-to-apples comparison can be done?

I still think you're confusing the issue by demanding compilation and analysis of data that isn't readily available.

Do you know whether the multiplexers employed necessarily use all available bandwidth all the time?


Can you assemble the data in table form so that an apples-to-apples comparison can be done?

Everything is posted - take it. Compare, do your meaningful analysis.
See James Long site, Sixto data, gct's posts (use my info too) - all sat/tpns has known modulation, SR, FEC to calculate bandwidth for each tpn and whole fleet for each provider.



#54 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:59 PM

But let me repeat again - one base is valid to compare the two providers' sat fleet - total bandwidth. The "pipe" size.

Perhaps ... but with DISH operating parallel systems one basically would be comparing three fleets.

The "what do they do with that bandwidth" question makes it much more complicated. Even beyond converting the potential pipe size to current pipe size and dividing it by current data rates. Much of the argument comes down to the choices DISH and DirecTV have made as to what to stick in that pipe. "Basic channels" "sports channels" "premium channels" "PPV". How much space is available and how much more could be put to use can be an interesting technical discussion, but what is done with the space is what most people care about.

Yes, I can tell you that a particular transponder is 8PSK using a signal rate of 21500 and 2/3 FEC ... and math can tell how many bits that is. But the raw number of bits available does not tell anyone how it is used to serve customers the content they desire. And whether or not the customers are served is what most customers care about.

That and whether or not their dish can be mounted where it can see the satellites required. :)

#55 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

but what is done with the space is what most people care about.

That would be valid discussion only when we establish the base - 'pipeline(s)' size, first.

#56 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:16 PM

That would be valid discussion only when we establish the base - 'pipeline(s)' size, first.

I disagree. The content people care about has been a valid ongoing discussion on this site for many years and will continue to be so (in appropriate threads).

One does not need to know the pipe size to know if a service meets the customer's needs. The pipe size is a good excuse for NOT meeting the customer's needs - but an excuse is an excuse, not a substitution for meeting a customer's needs. (In other words ... if a customer complains about channel XXY not being carried the pipe size could be used as an excuse for channel XXY not being carried but it doesn't satisfy the "need" for channel XXY.)

#57 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:34 PM

Actually, we are benting the discussion in our own but different directions... See post #1.

I think my deviation in the discussion got an influence by post#15 ...

Edited by P Smith, 28 July 2012 - 01:40 PM.


#58 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

Actually, we are benting the discussion in our own but different directions... See post #1.

I did ... it was basically a LOS complaint with an incorrect answer given by an installer. (It isn't the number of satellites that count, but where they are located - and whether a location on the ground can be found to serve a particular customer.)

I think my deviation in the discussion got an influence by post#15 ...

Actually post #5: "The SAT count isn't as important as the transponder count."

Still a little off as it is the satellite location that really matters when it comes to LOS. (And the licensed/leased transponder counts that followed are off as well.)

Bit counting can be fun ... but there are much bigger influences.

#59 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:06 PM

Actually post #5: "The SAT count isn't as important as the transponder count."

Since that looks like mine,

"The point" was that counting SATs [at one location] wasn't as important as how many tps are being used, from that location.

Now you've just wondered off to the "how many channels" direction which wasn't in the first post.

Hey I've got 10000000 channels and all but four, are the home shopping channels WooHoo
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#60 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:13 PM

To add to HobbyTalk's reply.

Both services have Mpeg2 and Mpeg4 channels.
Most DirecTv SD channels are Mpeg 2.

DishNetworks Western Arc SD is Mpeg 2 and their Eastern Arc SD is all Mpeg4
Both services HD is Mpeg4

Or to put it another way dishnetwork is also ahead of DirecTV on going to all MPeg4 since that is all they have on their eastern Arc.

Is that clear enough?
TB


I wouldn't say either is really ahead of the other in moving to all mpeg4. Does dish have an sd and an Hi Definition feed of some channels on the eastern arc? If so, going all mpeg4 hasn't gained them anything meaningful in bandwidth (except maybe a little better pq for sd) because they haven't gone all Hi Definition equipment that can down res for non Hi Definition customers. That's when they will be able to move ahead and save bandwidth, and eliminate all dupe channels. Or have they done that already? Of course, since they also have to duplicate everything on two separate arcs, they have a more difficult road overall, but have an easier road for getting at least half the nation to all Hi Definition equipment.

Of course, then adding the bandwidth, they could choose to either go full res ( as they should do) or adding more channels, but then realize the east and west may have different channels, which could be confusing to some.

Both companies face difficult Decisions on when it makes sense and how to move people to all Hi Definition mpeg4 equipment that eventually will free up more bandwidth for them. And the path for each company is likely to be a bit different.




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