Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

Is it true DTV has more satellites than dish?


  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

#61 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,860 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

Counting SATs:
Do you count locations?
Do you count SATs clustered at the same location?
Or do you simply count useful tps, their bandwidth, "and then" get down to channel counts?
A.K.A VOS

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#62 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,378 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

Perhaps ... but with DISH operating parallel systems one basically would be comparing three fleets.

The "what do they do with that bandwidth" question makes it much more complicated. Even beyond converting the potential pipe size to current pipe size and dividing it by current data rates. Much of the argument comes down to the choices DISH and DirecTV have made as to what to stick in that pipe. "Basic channels" "sports channels" "premium channels" "PPV". How much space is available and how much more could be put to use can be an interesting technical discussion, but what is done with the space is what most people care about.

Yes, I can tell you that a particular transponder is 8PSK using a signal rate of 21500 and 2/3 FEC ... and math can tell how many bits that is. But the raw number of bits available does not tell anyone how it is used to serve customers the content they desire. And whether or not the customers are served is what most customers care about.

That and whether or not their dish can be mounted where it can see the satellites required. :)


Is dish still broadcasting separate sd and Hi Definition versions of channels on the eastern arc?

#63 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,378 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:21 PM

Counting SATs:
Do you count locations?
Do you count SATs clustered at the same location?
Or do you simply count useful tps, their bandwidth, "and then" get down to channel counts?


Really, I would think the important thing to count is how many transponders they can use, and how many channels they can get on all those, to get theoretical amount of channels they can put up, and then count to see how many channels they actually broadcast. Other than those two things, does anything else matter at the end point? What they have, and what they can add... Of course, we will never know for sure the actual can add numbers for either company, because we will never know all the details and capabilities. Just look at how now DIRECTV is having six channels a transponder on some satelites.

#64 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 39,911 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:29 PM

Now you've just wondered off to the "how many channels" direction which wasn't in the first post.

Actually, in relationship to the first post my last post summed up the answer:
It isn't the number of satellites that count, but where they are located - and whether a location on the ground can be found to serve a particular customer.

I don't believe I have mentioned channel count here ... only opposition to using bit counting as the start of a comparison.

Hey I've got 10000000 channels and all but four, are the home shopping channels WooHoo

Fortunately no provider is like that and no one would take that as a serious comment. Content matters.

Counting SATs:
Do you count locations?
Do you count SATs clustered at the same location?
Or do you simply count useful tps, their bandwidth, "and then" get down to channel counts?

Transponders is a good level to start at ... if one must compare at a technical level beyond what most customers would care about. But does saying one provider has their transponders configured to transmit 3.1 trillion bits of information vs the other provider having their transponders configured to transmit 3.2 trillion really make a difference?

Customer satisfaction isn't defined by the capacity for bits of information. It is defined by how those bits are used.

#65 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 39,911 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:30 PM

Is dish still broadcasting separate sd and Hi Definition versions of channels on the eastern arc?

Yes ... except for locals where the SD is pulled when a HD version is added.

#66 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,378 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:39 PM

Yes ... except for locals where the SD is pulled when a HD version is added.


Wait, does all their mpeg4 equipment pick up Hi Definition feeds and have the ability to down covert for sd customers? If so, why on earth do they have the dupes?

#67 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 39,911 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

Wait, does all their mpeg4 equipment pick up Hi Definition feeds and have the ability to down covert for sd customers? If so, why on earth do they have the dupes?

DISH only knows for sure. There may be contractual issues or differences between the feeds (such as logos and popups) that the providers want to keep separate. A lot of SD channels are now simple center crops or letterboxes of the newer HD feeds and the receivers all have SD outputs. But providers have their wishes.

#68 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,918 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 28 July 2012 - 03:08 PM

Really, I would think the important thing to count is how many transponders they can use, and how many channels they can get on all those, to get theoretical amount of channels they can put up, and then count to see how many channels they actually broadcast. Other than those two things, does anything else matter at the end point? What they have, and what they can add... Of course, we will never know for sure the actual can add numbers for either company, because we will never know all the details and capabilities. Just look at how now DIRECTV is having six channels a transponder on some satelites.

You can't count transponders as-is for start counting channels. All of them have different "pipesize" what is exactly a base for start conting channels.
Sats and tpns are VERY VERY rough estimation - to much variations between different sats for just one provider [DTV Ku and Ka] to use them as-is.

#69 OFFLINE   HobbyTalk

HobbyTalk

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,659 posts
Joined: Jul 14, 2007

Posted 28 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

Wait, does all their mpeg4 equipment pick up Hi Definition feeds and have the ability to down covert for sd customers? If so, why on earth do they have the dupes?


The only receivers that can be installed on the eastern arc are the VIP (or better) receivers. All of them do HD. I suppose a lot of SD customers complain when their programming is letterboxed on their 4:3 screens when HD programming is displayed on an SD TV. Heck people complain that some broadcasts just crop their HD programming for SD instead of pan and scan. You can't please them all :)
DirecTV HR34 - 3 HR25's
Panny 42PX77U - Slingbox Pro
tgif: let's RV

#70 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,918 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 28 July 2012 - 03:19 PM

are the VIP (or better) receivers

- mean ViP and XiP

#71 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,860 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:58 PM

Actually, in relationship to the first post my last post summed up the answer:
It isn't the number of satellites that count, but where they are located - and whether a location on the ground can be found to serve a particular customer.

maybe you saw.read more into the first post than I, but location(s) didn't seem to be the question.

I don't believe I have mentioned channel count here ... only opposition to using bit counting as the start of a comparison.

Fortunately no provider is like that and no one would take that as a serious comment. Content matters.

You seemed to go this direction, but channels that customers wanted was what was important, so my billion home shopping channels was meant as a joke [aka not to be taken seriouly].

Transponders is a good level to start at ...

which was all I was suggesting.
A.K.A VOS

#72 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,918 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:18 PM

Just one example what would rain on your parade: you can't count together Ka tpn DVB-S2|8PSK|30 Msps|3/4 and Ku tpn DSS|QPSK|20 Msps|6/7.

Technical (OK, scientific) way to get start - get common denominator. It should be a bandwidth: XX and YY Mbps.

#73 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,175 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 29 July 2012 - 03:17 AM

Just one example what would rain on your parade: you can't count together Ka tpn DVB-S2|8PSK|30 Msps|3/4 and Ku tpn DSS|QPSK|20 Msps|6/7.

Technical (OK, scientific) way to get start - get common denominator. It should be a bandwidth: XX and YY Mbps.


Actually P. Smith, for digital transmission I see the SR (or Baud rate) as the "usual" main parameter determining bandwidth, instead of the bit rate, whether throughput or aggregate, that's being transmitted through it.

For instance in the examples you cite above, irrespective of their differing modulation levels and FEC code rates, the 30 and 20 Msps are both just a few percentage points less than the assigned 36 and 24 MHz bandwidths noted in their official emission designators.

Now as I wrote earlier, there are exceptions to this general rule in some cases as with the Spaceways' stated 62.5 MHz tp. bandwidth (non-processor mode) quoted in the LOA narrative, yet it list an emission designator for them of 24M0G7W which is only a 24 MHz wide transmission.

For an alleged 62.5 MHz tp. bandwidth, I would have "normally" expected an emission designator of around 58M0G7W for it or something.

#74 OFFLINE   HobbyTalk

HobbyTalk

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,659 posts
Joined: Jul 14, 2007

Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:12 AM

- mean ViP and XiP


Should have said "newer" :)
DirecTV HR34 - 3 HR25's
Panny 42PX77U - Slingbox Pro
tgif: let's RV

#75 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,867 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:55 AM

You are diverting the discussion into blurring "optimization" aspect. Before that we must settle major numbers. Comparable numbers.
At least it would common ground to a comparison. As I mentioned everything above is not the numbers to final account; these are just initial parameters to start calculate the total bandwidth on each provider before compare.


But how do you count the numbers?

Dish has duplication of content between their eastern and western arcs, so simply measuring aggregate "pipe size" doesn't work As a point of comparison unless you eliminate the duplicate capacity.

DirecTV has some currently idle capacity (apparently) so should that be included or excluded?

The fundamental question is what are you trying to measure? A theoretical (but I would submit meaningless) measure of aggregate capacity? Or are you trying measure total delivered bandwidth at a given point? Or perhaps total number of channels?

My point is that for each of the possible things you might measure DirecTV will "win" some and Dish will win others. For those that are interested in satellite design the type and number of transponders, the footprints they generate, the encoding and modulation of the signals they transmit and the design of the satellites that carry them may be of concern. I am such a person. However, I simply caution that the differences between the providers in all these areas are simply that - differences. Neither is "better" or "superior", and there are enough variables that making broad generalizations like "who has more capacity" or "more satellites" are decidedly not simple questions to answer.

Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#76 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 18,985 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 29 July 2012 - 01:01 PM

Maybe you should stop right here and call yourself ahead.

You're the only person that I've seen that has offered the per-program information that P Smith says is available (but won't share or link to it). Do you have any of this "aggregate bandwidth" information he refers to?

For some peculiar reason, DIRECTV threads seem to be clogged with posters who refuse to provide reference information in support of their claims. I may have contracted the disease myself.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#77 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,378 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 29 July 2012 - 02:02 PM

You're the only person that I've seen that has offered the per-program information that P Smith says is available (but won't share or link to it). Do you have any of this "aggregate bandwidth" information he refers to?

For some peculiar reason, DIRECTV threads seem to be clogged with posters who refuse to provide reference information in support of their claims. I may have contracted the disease myself.


That's because they don't see the point in sending dish subs to other threads to join in our conversation there about more DIRECTV the hnical information.

#78 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,860 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 29 July 2012 - 02:32 PM

You're the only person that I've seen that has offered the per-program information that P Smith says is available (but won't share or link to it). Do you have any of this "aggregate bandwidth" information he refers to?

For some peculiar reason, DIRECTV threads seem to be clogged with posters who refuse to provide reference information in support of their claims. I may have contracted the disease myself.

One of the last was this: http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=205621

"I'd say" a significant problem is the information is buried in threads covering 5 years on this forum. While I generally remember the context, digging through threads for links isn't something I'm going to spend a lot of time on.
Even the link I posted, has close to 400 posts.
A.K.A VOS

#79 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 39,911 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 29 July 2012 - 02:38 PM

From a DISH side I could provide a table with the current transponder usage and the setup on each of those transponders (or one could look through my website as P Smith suggested and cull those figures themselves). But as I already stated, bits don't tell the whole story. Channel capacity does not tell the whole story. This seems to be another discussion that will end in "agree to disagree" so why spend a lot of time on the math?

#80 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 18,985 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 29 July 2012 - 05:20 PM

This seems to be another discussion that will end in "agree to disagree" so why spend a lot of time on the math?

P Smith insists that the crucial information is available so that a better understanding might be had by all. Maybe the truth isn't out there after all.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK





Protected By... spam firewall...And...