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Potential causes for 2 HR24's with recording glitches in the same place?


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#1 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:28 PM

For a while now I have been noticing glitches in DVR recordings as well as when I'm watching TV through the buffer (rewound at some point and not caught up to live TV yet). The video & audio drops out for a second somewhere in the recording, occasionally longer but I can't usually tell for just how long.
This has been happening on BOTH HR24's. I had a service call and the tech said my signal strengths were low and ended up replacing the dish and aligning it. Signal strengths were great after that, but the problem persists.

A 2nd tech came out supposedly to "check the resistance in the cable runs" but did nothing after seeing the strong signal strengths. (He visually inspected a couple of the cables where they connect to the receivers) He believes that both HR24's are failing and need to be replaced. However, I find this to be HIGHLY unlikely because I recorded the same program at the same time on both DVRs the other night, and both recordings had the glitch in the EXACT same spot.

Other important info:

- Both DVRs have been down to under 20% free space a couple times but are currently both over 60%.
- This happens even when the weather is perfectly clear.
- Signal strengths are all strong as a result of the dish replacement/alignment.
- Not sure if the dish type shown in my signature is accurate anymore (as a result of the first service call)

Any ideas as to what can be causing this? D* tech support says perhaps the multiswitch and/or the SWM. I have another tech coming out on Tuesday. I don't mind them swapping out the DVRs as long as they have other HR24s on the truck, but I doubt it will solve the problem.
Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

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#2 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:31 PM

Potential causes for 2 HR24's with recording glitches in the same place?

Sounds like it's is in the feed and not anything on your end.
A.K.A VOS

#3 OFFLINE   sonofcool

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 05:46 AM

Sounds like it's is in the feed and not anything on your end.


Agree. I see this too from time to time on several DVR models.

#4 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:34 PM

Sounds like it's is in the feed and not anything on your end.


Are you talking in the transmission itself? This happens in approximately half of my recordings regardless of the channel, so I can't see that being the cause. Any other possibilities?
Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

#5 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:39 PM

Are you talking in the transmission itself? This happens in approximately half of my recordings regardless of the channel, so I can't see that being the cause. Any other possibilities?


If both units have the same glitch in the same spot, and the glitch is always there, then it's not the units.

If you rewind and the glitch is still in the same spot it's something that was in the feed when the recording was made.
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#6 OFFLINE   nsolot

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:18 AM

A possibility is quality of AC power to your units. I have a UPS between wall outlet and my HR24's to protect against surges & brownouts.

#7 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:57 AM

I have both units hooked up to a UPS. I also had the SWM on a UPS but the first tech removed it and said it causes problems (interference or something... didn't sound right to me, but I left the UPS on the SWM out of the picture for now)

RunnerFL, the glitch is in the same spot if I rewind and play it again. Could it be the SWM or the multiswitch causing the signal issue to the DVRs? Or cabling perhaps? (don't know if cables in the walls ever go bad over time)

With my signal strengths as strong as they are, and for how often this happens, I still can't believe it's a transmission issue in the feed as opposed to something with hardware in my house. There would be a ton of people on here complaining about it if it was a global issue.
Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

#8 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:40 AM

RunnerFL, the glitch is in the same spot if I rewind and play it again. Could it be the SWM or the multiswitch causing the signal issue to the DVRs? Or cabling perhaps? (don't know if cables in the walls ever go bad over time)

With my signal strengths as strong as they are, and for how often this happens, I still can't believe it's a transmission issue in the feed as opposed to something with hardware in my house. There would be a ton of people on here complaining about it if it was a global issue.


I suppose it could be water in a connector or cracked housing on the LNB. I'm confused by the setup in your signature. Do you have a SWiM LNB or standard LNB with an external SWiM8/16?

Have you by chance watched something as it was recording to see if it happens live?
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#9 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:01 AM

I suppose it could be water in a connector or cracked housing on the LNB. I'm confused by the setup in your signature. Do you have a SWiM LNB or standard LNB with an external SWiM8/16?

Have you by chance watched something as it was recording to see if it happens live?


Ive always been confused by that too... I don't really know what an LNB looks like or where it is (I assume outside as part of the dish?)
Would this picture of my SWM8 and multiswitch (I think that's what it is) tell you?
(look at the splitter/multiswitch just to the right of the SWM, not the one above it)

I haven't noticed it in live TV, but I don't watch live very much. I've just asked my wife to pay attention and let me know if she sees any glitches.

Thanks for your help...

Attached Thumbnails

  • SWM & Multiswitch.jpg

Edited by MISpat, 30 July 2012 - 11:17 AM.

Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

#10 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:09 AM

Ive always been confused by that too... I don't really know what an LNB looks like or where it is (I assume outside as part of the dish?)
Would this picture of my SWM8 and multiswitch (I think that's what it is) tell you?

I haven't noticed it in live TV, but I don't watch live very much. I've just asked my wife to pay attention and let me know if she sees any glitches.

Thanks for your help...

Do you have one coax coming down from the dish? [SWiMLNB]
If you have 4 coax, you have a separate SWiM.

In your photo of the power inserter, I see an 8-way splitter, but what bothers me is there are some "caps" where coax doesn't connect, but they don't look to be terminations.
Not that this is your problem, but it isn't correct either, and who knows what problems it's causing.
A.K.A VOS

#11 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:15 AM

VOS, I used to have two cables coming in from the dish, but those were abandoned when they installed the SWM (or am I referring to that device incorrectly? A power inserter?) There is only one cable coming into the house from the dish now.

Are you referring to the two silver colored caps on the splitter covering the connectors with no coax attached? Those were given to me by an installer to put on the open connectors. I'm supposed to have something different on those? (and I thought that splitter was called a multi-switch. So now I feel totally clueless as to the equipment I have in that room for D*)
Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

#12 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:18 PM

VOS, I used to have two cables coming in from the dish, but those were abandoned when they installed the SWM (or am I referring to that device incorrectly? A power inserter?) There is only one cable coming into the house from the dish now.

Are you referring to the two silver colored caps on the splitter covering the connectors with no coax attached? Those were given to me by an installer to put on the open connectors. I'm supposed to have something different on those? (and I thought that splitter was called a multi-switch. So now I feel totally clueless as to the equipment I have in that room for D*)

You have:
a SWiM dish, where "the SWiM" is at the dish.
You have the power inserter, pictured.
The 8-way splitter has the wrong caps. These are dust/weather caps that come on other SWiM switches.

You should be able to find these locally at home depot, lowes, etc.:
http://www.solidsign...ku=782644000256
A.K.A VOS

#13 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:15 PM

Tech is here right now. He replaced the regular DECA which was connected to my router with a Broadband DECA. He said he was having the exact same problem in his own home and changing to a Broadband DECA solved the problem.

I wonder if this is why D* system was saying I didn't have the Cinema Connection Kit when in fact I did.
Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

#14 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:27 PM

Tech is here right now. He replaced the regular DECA which was connected to my router with a Broadband DECA. He said he was having the exact same problem in his own home and changing to a Broadband DECA solved the problem.

I wonder if this is why D* system was saying I didn't have the Cinema Connection Kit when in fact I did.

Get him to change the "caps" to terminations.

As for a "regular" DECA verses a BB DECA [or CCK], I've used/tested both without your problem, so seems highly unlikely it is it, as it also has nothing to do with a SAT feed having a glitch, but not terminating the splitter ports "sure can".
A.K.A VOS

#15 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:43 PM

Get him to change the "caps" to terminations.

As for a "regular" DECA verses a BB DECA [or CCK], I've used/tested both without your problem, so seems highly unlikely it is it, as it also has nothing to do with a SAT feed having a glitch, but not terminating the splitter ports "sure can".


I asked him about that and he said you don't even need anything on those. So I'm going to try to get the terminations at Home Depot.

Thanks everyone.
Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

#16 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:45 PM

PS I asked the tech what I hardware I had and updated my signature with it... sound right?
Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

#17 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:06 PM

I asked him about that and he said you don't even need anything on those. So I'm going to try to get the terminations at Home Depot.

Thanks everyone.


PS I asked the tech what I hardware I had and updated my signature with it... sound right?

Your "tech" isn't quite up to speed. Doesn't seem to even be a fair installer.

Your sig looks correct, "but" if you notice, we try to keep then short and/or limited to 3-4 lines.
You can keep the same info, but rearranged:

Patrick
Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)
A.K.A VOS

#18 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:23 PM

I asked him about that and he said you don't even need anything on those. So I'm going to try to get the terminations at Home Depot...

Don't bother. That part, he's right about. The rest, maybe not so much.

...In your photo of the power inserter, I see an 8-way splitter, but what bothers me is there are some "caps" where coax doesn't connect, but they don't look to be terminations.
Not that this is your problem, but it isn't correct either, and who knows what problems it's causing.

I do.

And the answer is "none".

As an RF Engineer for many years, who has probably dropped or lost many more terminator caps than most of us have ever seen or come in contact with (I can open any of half a dozen drawers in this very room and pull out one as an example), I can assure you that terminations aren't really that necessary on the subscriber ports of hybrid splitter. On the through leg of a direct coupler, maybe, or when power levels are higher and cables are shorter. The difference in level and reflection in any part of a system such as this would be pretty much less than significantly measurable or viewable whether there were terminators, weather caps, or nothing at all on those ports. They are more effective in keeping water from sucking up into the device than anything else, and even then are mostly unnecessary.

And for anyone who might care, here is why:

What we have with coaxial cable is waveguide design, primarily. A termination to a RF port presents as an infinitely-long piece of coax; 75 ohms impedance-wise at all frequencies from DC to light. An open port with no termination at all presents as an infinite resistance. So one is effectively a 75-ohm load and the other is effectively an infinite load.

The terminated port has no impedance mismatch, so no RF power is reflected. The open port has a severe impedance mismatch, so most of the RF power is indeed reflected. But due to the design of hybrid power dividers (splitters) and the typical length of coax as installed in normal distribution, most if not all of what is reflected never makes it back to where it might be able to cause problems.

In digital RF distribution (analog carriers modulated by digital signals) such a reflection might raise the aggregate multipath interference level only very slightly, and not enough to make any difference to the ability of the decoder, which is designed to be very good at completely equalizing out short reflections. Even if we assume that it wouldn't, and could still somehow properly decode, such a reflection would still be completely invisible in the picture, because that is locked against degradation just by virtue of it still being in the digital domain.

In analog RF distribution the timing of any sizable reflection is so short that it is all but invisible in the picture even though it is there. IOW, it appears as virtually the same image laid over the original image and offset by a teensy-tiny fraction of a pixel, which is essentially invisible. If the time delay were more it would eventually become visible because it would be offset like a ghost, but for that to happen you have to run that reflection through a lot more cable, and that will attenuate it to a level where it will no longer be visible long before the delay increases enough to actually see it.

That is the same reason longer reflections are not a problem for digital decoders; the length of the cable to get the reflection that late attenuates the interference to a level where it no longer can be a factor. Multipath is only problematic if the reflection is both delayed significantly AND the level is close to the desired signal level, and internal reflections in distribution can't do either of those things well, and neither of them together at the same time.

Use 'em if you got 'em, but don't fret if you don't.

Edited by TomCat, 31 July 2012 - 07:39 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#19 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:30 PM

I do.

And the answer is "none".

As an RF Engineer for many years,

I didn't read any farther because you're wrong, and should know better.

Signals reflect off open ports. Even you should "know this".

Now if you have happened to follow some of the issues posted on this forum, you'll find many issues due to not terminating open ports. I don't need to make this up. There here.
Maybe the worst case was a HR34 that shared the SWiM with another receiver on the SWiM, but the SWiM reported there weren't any channels free for it to use. Terminating all the opens had the HR34 boot up with all 5 tuners.

You just keep amazing everyone with your complete lack of understanding what's going on with DirecTV, while pontificating for a half a page or more.

If you really are an RF engineer [and I have my doubts] you're the worst one I've run across in the past 40 years.

Edited by veryoldschool, 31 July 2012 - 09:49 PM.

A.K.A VOS

#20 OFFLINE   MISpat

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:35 PM

Well that's all Greek to me, but it won't hurt to get the proper terminators so I'll just do it.
Patrick

Dish type – SWM3 LNB, 2 HR24-500, H23-600, Whole Home w/ broadband DECA (CCK)

#21 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:14 PM

I didn't read any farther because you're wrong, and should know better.

Signals reflect off open ports. Even you should "know this"...

You just keep amazing everyone with your complete lack of understanding what's going on with DirecTV, while pontificating for a half a page or more.

If you really are an RF engineer [and I have my doubts] you're the worst one I've run across in the past 40 years.

That seems to be a singularly-held opinion, and I do not let such an opinion bother me because all I have to do is consider the source.

Here is a much more widely-held opinion, which is that you obviously have a long-running bone to pick with me because I have inadvertently proven you to be so very wrong on so very many subjects so very many times (certainly never on purpose, but you have a knack for turning yourself into collateral damage whenever the actual truth emerges, and only you can control where you stand when the [metaphorical] bombs eventually go off).

If you could do that to me, I would probably be inclined to make up nasty things to say about you, too. But I won't, because unlike you I am willing to obey forum rules and not attack other members, which you have now done a number of times. Like I say, that doesn't really bother me but for the sake of the other members here I guess I will have to report you. Again.

One definition of a good Engineer is someone who devours any relevant info he can get his hands on, and who is not afraid to ask questions, which are both tools that they use to get good in the first place.

One definition of a bad Engineer is someone who refuses to at least evaluate information they might come across on a subject, even if it is right in front of him staring him in the face, and is afraid to ask questions because that might admit that they did not know something beforehand; someone who has no natural curiosity and is easily derailed by their own petty agenda.

From the history of our posts, it is pretty easy to see which category each of us might fall in. Those who are paying attention should be able to easily decide, but here's a hint: we really don't fall into the same category.

Our latest example is that you "did not read any farther lsic]", because you knew about the principle of signal reflection in waveguide technology. Good for you, but what "not reading farther [sic]" means is you still don't know that I actually addressed that in the post as supporting evidence for my argument, a practice you have failed to do in any of your posts.

I also explained just a paragraph or two later exactly why even though there actually is reflection, why that just does not matter in this particular situation (terminator caps on subscriber ports in consumer RF distribution scenarios). And the answer is definitive and clear-cut, and pretty easy to understand if you also understand anything about the physics of RF distribution technology and how interference may or may not manifest as a problem.

But you missed all of that, because you were more concerned with the fact that you keyed in on what you know vs what you think I might not know, not understanding (because you didn't read "far" enough) that I already understand it intimately better than you apparently do. Instead we were treated to yet another knee-jerk wild-ass jump to a false conclusion, your signature pattern.

A good Engineer, in the same position as you as a reader of my post, might have the initial reaction to the first couple of lines in my post as "What? Doesn't this guy understand reflections in coax cable? Isn't that the problem and the termination the solution?" But a good Engineer's reaction to that would be "Here's a mystery and an apparent conflict with what I think I know; I think maybe I'll read the next sentence or two and see if there is an answer to the mystery and a resolution to the conflict. I might actually learn something." And having good discipline, that is exactly what a good Engineer would then do.

A bad Engineer might see the mystery and conflict, but since he might not have the important natural curiosity that makes good Engineers good, could get diverted easily by another, sometimes personal petty agenda. The bad Engineer's reaction to the first 10 words of my post might be "Aha, I think I finally got this guy, so I can't wait to shoot from the hip and post back about how clever I am. Maybe that will revalidate some of the credibility I lost in the last 10 posts I made by diminishing his credibility today". And if that "Engineer" were also petty and vindictive, he might also try to use that as a cudgel to beat me over the head with while telling me how terrible I am. The problem with that is how really bad it starts to look when you are completely wrong because you didn't have the basic capacity to follow through in the first place. Oops. That makes you Will Ferrel trying to beat Zach Galifinakis to kissing the baby first in The Candidate (see the movie; its hilarious).

And anyone who is actually paying attention to the thread can easily determine what actually happened here, and who to categorize how, based on what has been posted.

Again, if I knew you I would probably like you. I have no dog in any fight here, and I have no reason to attack you, which I have not. You have, and so I have simply responded. How that makes you look due to your behavior is really only sad to me; I take no pleasure in this. But it is my duty to set the record straight.

Bottom line, it is pretty clear that I might have even forgotten more about this subject than you might ever have the capacity to learn. If I were you, I'd give up while I was still only this far behind. There is no upside in you continuing. This is another classic "knife to a gunfight" blunder on your part. I'd really much rather bury the hatchet.

Edited by TomCat, 01 August 2012 - 12:29 PM.
typo

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#22 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:26 PM

I asked him about that and he said you don't even need anything on those. So I'm going to try to get the terminations at Home Depot.

Thanks everyone.


I'd listen to VOS's suggestion and buy them at Solid Signal, they have the right equipment for just about anything we need. He's one of the more dependable resources we have.

Rich

#23 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:35 PM

Well that's all Greek to me, but it won't hurt to get the proper terminators so I'll just do it.


VOS sent you the correct link to the terminators. They've got 75Ω resistors in them, and that's what you need. God only knows what you'll find at a Home Depot or a Lowes.

Rich

#24 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:41 PM

That seems to be a singularly-held opinion, and I do not let such an opinion bother me because all I have to do is consider the source.

Here is a much more widely-held opinion, which is that you obviously have a long-running bone to pick with me because I have inadvertently proven you to be so very wrong on so very many subjects so very many times (certainly never on purpose, but you have a knack for turning yourself into collateral damage whenever the actual truth emerges, and only you can control where you stand when the [metaphorical] bombs eventually go off).

If you could do that to me, I would probably be inclined to make up nasty things to say about you, too. But I won't, because unlike you I am willing to obey forum rules and not attack other members, which you have now done a number of times. Like I say, that doesn't really bother me but for the sake of the other members here I guess I will have to report you. Again.

One definition of a good Engineer is someone who devours any relevant info he can get his hands on, and who is not afraid to ask questions, which are both tools that they use to get good in the first place.

One definition of a bad Engineer is someone who refuses to at least evaluate information they might come across on a subject, even if it is right in front of him staring him in the face, and is afraid to ask questions because that might admit that they did not know something beforehand; someone who has no natural curiosity and is easily derailed by their own petty agenda.

From the history of our posts, it is pretty easy to see which category each of us might fall in. Those who are paying attention should be able to easily decide, but here's a hint: we really don't fall into the same category.

Our latest example is that you "did not read any farther lsic]", because you knew about the principle of signal reflection in waveguide technology. Good for you, but what "not reading farther [sic]" means is you still don't know that I actually addressed that in the post as supporting evidence for my argument, a practice you have failed to do in any of your posts.

I also explained just a paragraph or two later exactly why even though there actually is reflection, why that just does not matter in this particular situation (terminator caps on subscriber ports in consumer RF distribution scenarios). And the answer is definitive and clear-cut, and pretty easy to understand if you also understand anything about the physics of RF distribution technology and how interference may or may not manifest as a problem.

But you missed all of that, because you were more concerned with the fact that you keyed in on what you know vs what you think I might not know, not understanding (because you didn't read "far" enough) that I already understand it intimately better than you apparently do. Instead we were treated to yet another knee-jerk wild-ass jump to a false conclusion, your signature pattern.

A good Engineer, in the same position as you as a reader of my post, might have the initial reaction to the first couple of lines in my post as "What? Doesn't this guy understand reflections in coax cable? Isn't that the problem and the termination the solution?" But a good Engineer's reaction to that would be "Here's a mystery and an apparent conflict with what I think I know; I think maybe I'll read the next sentence or two and see if there is an answer to the mystery and a resolution to the conflict. I might actually learn something." And having good discipline, that is exactly what a good Engineer would then do.

A bad Engineer might see the mystery and conflict, but since he might not have the important natural curiosity that makes good Engineers good, could get diverted easily by another, sometimes personal petty agenda. The bad Engineer's reaction to the first 10 words of my post might be "Aha, I think I finally got this guy, so I can't wait to shoot from the hip and post back about how clever I am. Maybe that will revalidate some of the credibility I lost in the last 10 posts I made by diminishing his credibility today". And if that "Engineer" were also petty and vindictive, he might also try to use that as a cudgel to beat me over the head with while telling me how terrible I am. The problem with that is how really bad it starts to look when you are completely wrong because you didn't have the basic capacity to follow through in the first place. Oops. That makes you Will Ferrel trying to beat Zach Galifinakis to kissing the baby first in The Candidate (see the movie; its hilarious).

And anyone who is actually paying attention to the thread can easily determine what actually happened here, and who to categorize how, based on what has been posted.

Again, if I knew you I would probably like you. I have no dog in any fight here, and I have no reason to attack you, which I have not. You have, and so I have simply responded. How that makes you look due to your behavior is really only sad to me; I take no pleasure in this. But it is my duty to set the record straight.

Bottom line, it is pretty clear that I might have even forgotten more about this subject than you might ever have the capacity to learn. If I were you, I'd give up while I was still only this far behind. There is no upside in you continuing. This is another classic "knife to a gunfight" blunder on your part. I'd really much rather bury the hatchet.


His opinion isn't "singular". We all make mistakes, but you make some whoppers. The "frequency of DC voltage" is one thing you've posted that I'll never forget.

And I kinda get a kick out of some of your briefer posts. No animosity on my part, but...

Rich

#25 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:43 PM

Well that's all Greek to me, but it won't hurt to get the proper terminators so I'll just do it.

You are absolutely right. It really will not hurt. But it also really will not help. Just don't pretend I didn't warn you. If I was talented enough to explain it any more clearly, I would have. But I'm not. I might even be the worst Engineer in 40 years, according to some of those just really not paying attention (which explains my sig). But they are on their own.

It is good to feed the economy, even if the effort (payment for goods) might be in vain. Go for it. It's superstitious behavior, but it might make you feel better just because you did something, even something that won't make a difference otherwise. You need to feel like you have some control over this; a need to make order from chaos. I get it; that's a universal human reaction, even if ineffective and pointless; we all do stuff like that all the time, even though that is the mortal enemy of evolution. I'm no better; I just try to do such things with my eyes already open. But Home Depot needs you.

Ever watch an ant hill? Lots of energy expended, but only a small percentage of it is all that effective. Humans are like ants, only with cellphones.

Edited by TomCat, 01 August 2012 - 01:01 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.




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