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BUG REPORT: Can't tune OTA w/o PSIP?


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58 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   peterd

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Posted 17 January 2004 - 07:43 PM

Well, I think this is what's happening but don't have a way to verify without the input of other 921 owners.

Here in the SF area, there's one station (KBHK, a UPN O&O) which I believe does not transmit any PSIP info at all. They were awarded an adjacent channel for their ATSC signal, and made the decision early on not to remap the channel. Instead they use this as a marketing tool ("UPN 44, Digital 45"). (As an aside, I find this particularly annoying since the DTV channel is always a simulcast. This had been in 480i, and the few HD feeds UPN has ("Star Trek: Enterprise" and "Jake 2.0", whatever that is) were not carried, but the simulcast recently went to 1080i so we'll see...)

The 921 sees 45 in the DTV channel scan, and in the "Add DTV" screen, but it is never added to the channel list (and cannot be tuned directly using the remote, either). As near as I can tell this is because there is no PSIP info, but I have no way to verify this. On the Dish 6000, all other stations' call letters show up (e.g. "KNTV-HD") but no PSIP ID shows up on KBHK's digital signal.

I thought of one test - to feed the 921 the output of my Dish 5000's 8VSB modulator (since the modulator does not output any PSIP info). However, this seemed to contradict the theory about a total lack of PSIP info since the 921 is able to add the 5000's 8VSB signal to the DTV channel list and tune it in just fine.

If anyone out there with a 921 is in the SF market and/or has seen something similar elsewhere, please report your experiences.
Peter
(New to this forum, but far from a newbie!) :)

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Boot: 120B
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#2 OFFLINE   bobl

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 10:58 AM

Peter,

I'm having the exact same problem. I've been able to add fifteen stations to my 921 in total whereas I was able to add sixteen to my 6000 and 821. The one missing is KBHK. I was also wondering if the missing PSIP information was the reason. Two of the sixteen stations don't remap their digital channel numbers back to their analog channel numbers, however, KCSM (channel 60/43) must be transmitting some PSIP information since it was identified as KCSM when I added it to the 921 even though it shows up under it's digital channel number (43).

Bob

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DISH 500, Dish 300 & SW64 (119,110 & 148)

#3 OFFLINE   alipka

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 01:31 PM

Peter,

I'm having the exact same problem. I've been able to add fifteen stations to my 921 in total whereas I was able to add sixteen to my 6000 and 821. The one missing is KBHK. I was also wondering if the missing PSIP information was the reason. Two of the sixteen stations don't remap their digital channel numbers back to their analog channel numbers, however, KCSM (channel 60/43) must be transmitting some PSIP information since it was identified as KCSM when I added it to the 921 even though it shows up under it's digital channel number (43).

Bob

SW L142HECD-N
Boot 120B
Flash F051

DISH 500, Dish 300 & SW64 (119,110 & 148)


I don't know if this is exactly what you are asking, but I am able to add several channels in NJ even though they don't remap to their PSIP number.

However, due to the OTA bug, I can't tune them even though they have huge signals (>110).

#4 OFFLINE   bobl

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 11:47 AM

alipka,

Do the stations that don't remap to their analog channel number (what you called PSIP number) show up in the program guide? If so, do they show the stations call letters in the guide? If they do I believe the station is transmitting some PSIP information but not remapping their digital channel number to their analog channel number. In other words, how did the guide know what call letters to put in the guide unless they were received via PSIP.

Bob

#5 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 12:26 PM

In Denver, we have one station (our Fox) that doesn't use PSIP information in their stream. It's broadcasting on channel 32, and shows up on my 921 list as 032-01 NON, whereas all of the other local digital stations are using psip to remap to their analog channels and insert their station call letters.

I don't have any problem viewing my channel 32-1, though.
Mark Lamutt
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#6 OFFLINE   peterd

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 01:03 PM

[...] one station [...] that doesn't use PSIP information in their stream [...] shows up on my 921 list as 032-01 NON...

Mark -

That's how my 5000's modulator output (which I can tune in fine) shows up. (BTW - You can change that "NON(E)" by selecting (check-marking) the channel in the "Local Channels" list (menu-6-8) and using the "Edit Name" button.)

PS, Mark -
Can anyone post a 921 usage tip in this forum or do you want them sent to you 1st?
Peter
(New to this forum, but far from a newbie!) :)

921 Info (so I don't forget it in bug reports) :grin:
SW: L188HECD-N
Boot: 120B
Flash: F051

HR10-250 Info (no bug reports) :D
SW: 3.1.5D-01-2-357
Capacity: 500 GB (63hrs HD)
NIC: Linksys USB100TX

SW64, DISH 300 @148 & DISH 500 w. duals.
119 split off DISH 500, combined with 110 Sat-C LNB on 24" dish and 101 from GainMaster (D* 101 + BEV 91 & 82)

#7 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 02:00 PM

Go ahead and post whatever tips you come up with. :)
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#8 OFFLINE   Slordak

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 04:04 PM

Any tips about how what to do with "stuck" channels? By this I mean the following bugs in editing the OTA DTV channels:

1) The same channel shows up multiple times, i.e. 50-1 might show up as 3 identical separate entries.

2) Certain channels cannot be removed; if one selects them and then picks remove, the channels refuse to be removed. However, if one tries to remove enough channels, one can sometimes wind up with blank channels in the list, i.e. a line with a check box but with no text at all on the line. This entry cannot be removed.

3) Channels show up in the channel guide which do not appear at all in the OTA channel list. E.g. There might be a channel 75-1 which does not show up at all when editing the channels. Since OTA channels cannot be controlled by the favorites list, it's essentially always there.

It basically seems as if the OTA channel database is corrupted. Is there a way to completely reset the OTA data base? Unless this database is going to be able to repair itself with the next 921 software release (or there is going to be a way to reset it, say be attempting to remove all channels), there's going to be problems.

#9 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 04:41 PM

#1 is definitely a bug that has been reported and confirmed. I haven't seen #2 or #3. Got any idea what you did to make those happen?
Mark Lamutt
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#10 OFFLINE   tnsprin

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 07:58 PM

#1 is definitely a bug that has been reported and confirmed. I haven't seen #2 or #3. Got any idea what you did to make those happen?


I am still waiting on my 921. But I do have 2 6000's. WB has a habit of incorrecting sending PSIP info that includes several stations, in the NY area, 11,12, and 75. 75 is actually invalid but they do it anyway. Perhaps you are seing the same. And with the 921 behaving as badly as it does with invalid PSIP info, this is probably worse.

#11 OFFLINE   pculley

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 10:32 AM

Any tips about how what to do with "stuck" channels? By this I mean the following bugs in editing the OTA DTV channels:

1) The same channel shows up multiple times, i.e. 50-1 might show up as 3 identical separate entries.

2) Certain channels cannot be removed; if one selects them and then picks remove, the channels refuse to be removed. However, if one tries to remove enough channels, one can sometimes wind up with blank channels in the list, i.e. a line with a check box but with no text at all on the line. This entry cannot be removed.

3) Channels show up in the channel guide which do not appear at all in the OTA channel list. E.g. There might be a channel 75-1 which does not show up at all when editing the channels. Since OTA channels cannot be controlled by the favorites list, it's essentially always there.

It basically seems as if the OTA channel database is corrupted. Is there a way to completely reset the OTA data base? Unless this database is going to be able to repair itself with the next 921 software release (or there is going to be a way to reset it, say be attempting to remove all channels), there's going to be problems.


I got the same exact issues on my system; I have not found any real sequence to when this happens, but it seems to happen shortly after the OTA tuner crashes and refuses to tune via the guide.

The various problems seem to go away if you tune to a sat channel, do a DTV channel scan, and then a full reboot. But they come back a bit later.

I think the DTV channel scan removes everything from the corrupted database...

#12 OFFLINE   Slordak

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 10:55 AM

The very first thing I did when I got my receiver from the dealer was remove (or try to remove) every single analog and digital channel the dealer had added by selecting each and every one, a page at a time, and picking "Remove". When I was all done doing this, I had four blank entries that could not be deleted. Things may have gone downhill from there :)

In some cases, problem #2 (in my above post) shows up when trying to fix the results of problem #1. That is to say that after a DTV scan, there might be 3 copies of a given channel, and in trying to individually remove 2 of them, some of the copies refuse to be removed. Sometimes one is able to remove one of the copies, but if one exits out of the OTA channel editing area and returns, the entry can show up completely blank in the OTA channel list.

Problem #3 may have something to do with the PSIP information. One or two of the IND channels in the Chicago area has decided that they will broadcast their corresponding analog channel number as "1" instead of the analog UHF/VHF number. However, when editing the channel list, there is no "1-1" or "1-2" shown; how does it manage to show up in the channel guide? Some combination of DTV scanning plus trying to remove duplicated and blank entries may have left it behind in the database, but its not clear how or why.

#13 OFFLINE   peterd

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 11:45 AM

I have seen problem 1, but not 2 or 3. I wonder if #2 has to do with the procedure used to delete channels?

[I] remove (or try to remove) every single analog and digital channel [...] by selecting each and every one, a page at a time, and picking "Remove."

I've done the complete deletion somewhat differently:
  • When you go into the "Local Channels" screen and check the first channel in the list, the cursor is automatically placed on the Remove button.
  • When this happens, I move the cursor back into the list and down to the second channel.
  • At this point, I can check every channel on the page. I stop, however, before checking off the last one showing.
  • I press the "Page Down" button on the remote.
  • Now, I up-arrow once to scroll the last channel from the previous page (the one I did not check before) onto the top of the list.
  • Repeat previous steps as needed.
  • When all channels are checked, select "Remove."
This way, I remove all the channels at once. Would this make a difference? I have no idea! Perhaps someone who is experiencing problems 2 or 3 can try this and report back...
Peter
(New to this forum, but far from a newbie!) :)

921 Info (so I don't forget it in bug reports) :grin:
SW: L188HECD-N
Boot: 120B
Flash: F051

HR10-250 Info (no bug reports) :D
SW: 3.1.5D-01-2-357
Capacity: 500 GB (63hrs HD)
NIC: Linksys USB100TX

SW64, DISH 300 @148 & DISH 500 w. duals.
119 split off DISH 500, combined with 110 Sat-C LNB on 24" dish and 101 from GainMaster (D* 101 + BEV 91 & 82)

#14 OFFLINE   Slordak

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 01:20 PM

Did you try that procedure to delete all of the channels while you had duplicates (e.g. 3 copies of 50-1) in your list? I.e. Run the "Scan DTV" several times to get duplicates in your list, then try and delete all of them. Once duplicates are in your list, it seems like trying to get rid of them then can lead to problems #2 and #3 (at least from my observations).

I saw someone on Satellite Guys described this same problem, the problem with being unable to delete certain channels from the OTA list, and then coming back in and finding them completely blank. Thus, I am not the only one who has observed this particular issue. In one case, I even managed to tune one of the blank channels, by deleting everything I could and leaving four undeletable blank entries; in this case, once one exits this screen, the receiver tries to tune a channel it names "UNKN".

#15 OFFLINE   peterd

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Posted 20 January 2004 - 02:20 PM

Did you try that procedure to delete all of the channels while you had duplicates (e.g. 3 copies of 50-1) in your list?

I can't honestly say I remember. Put it this way - I've seen multiple copies of channels (although if memory serves me I noticed it in the Create Timer screen); I've always used this procedure; I don't have any duplicates at the moment.

I also have to say that I will not intentionally create the problem just to test it. Every time I get the 921 reasonably stable after hours of deletion, scans and reboots I try extremely hard not to do anything which would trigger any OTA bugs! :grin:
Peter
(New to this forum, but far from a newbie!) :)

921 Info (so I don't forget it in bug reports) :grin:
SW: L188HECD-N
Boot: 120B
Flash: F051

HR10-250 Info (no bug reports) :D
SW: 3.1.5D-01-2-357
Capacity: 500 GB (63hrs HD)
NIC: Linksys USB100TX

SW64, DISH 300 @148 & DISH 500 w. duals.
119 split off DISH 500, combined with 110 Sat-C LNB on 24" dish and 101 from GainMaster (D* 101 + BEV 91 & 82)

#16 OFFLINE   jsanders

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 12:52 AM

The 921 sees 45 in the DTV channel scan, and in the "Add DTV" screen, but it is never added to the channel list (and cannot be tuned directly using the remote, either). As near as I can tell this is because there is no PSIP info, but I have no way to verify this. On the Dish 6000, all other stations' call letters show up (e.g. "KNTV-HD") but no PSIP ID shows up on KBHK's digital signal.


If anyone out there with a 921 is in the SF market and/or has seen something similar elsewhere, please report your experiences.


I also live in the Bay Area, and I see the same problem! I enjoy watching Star Trek in HD. I have noticed that it is only in 1080i on Wednesday nights, and not on Sunday nights during the encore presentation. I wanted to be able to record this show.

I just got my 921 tonight (Thanks Scott and Claude), and I now think it is not going to happen any time soon. Out of the few hours it has been hooked up, I've been able to watch only a few minutes of OTA broadcasts.

To be honest, this is alpha quality software. Maybe it is only developer quality. Alpha quality is supposed to be at least feature complete, and this isn't.

I hope we get a new software update soon!

#17 OFFLINE   jsanders

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 02:33 PM

As mentioned, I can't add the channel UPN, 45 to my channel list, even though the signal strength is actually above 100.

I sent them an email, inquiring about it. Who knows if my question will make it to the station engineer or not though. I suspect it will take more than one email to get through....

Here is the URL and contact info for KBHK:

General Contact Information
UPN44/Digital 45 (KBHK-TV)
855 Battery St. 4th floor
San Francisco, CA 94111
Telephone: 415-249-4444

For programming and/or scheduling comments, e-mail them to: feedback@kbhktv.com.

http://kbhk.com/abou..._814374224_html

Maybe if enough of us send an email, we will get a response. I asked them if their PSIP data stream differs from any of the other stations...

It would be nice to let the developers know what is unique about this channel!

We really appreciate the hard work of the people trying to integrate the hard ware and software to produce a PVR 921!

#18 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 03:14 PM

Guys, just a piece of advice, coming from more than 2 years of experience working with local television stations as a consumer - calling them and asking to speak with the chief engineer almost always produces better results than emailing them.
Mark Lamutt
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#19 OFFLINE   jsanders

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 04:02 PM

Guys, just a piece of advice, coming from more than 2 years of experience working with local television stations as a consumer - calling them and asking to speak with the chief engineer almost always produces better results than emailing them.



Thanks for the advice Mark. I've done both! I sent an email, and left a voice mail to their engineeers. The cool thing is that UPN 45 is owned and operated with KPIX 5 (CBS). The 921 doesn't seem to have a problem with KPIX, but it does have one with KBHK. Maybe just figuring out the difference between the setup of the two data streams will be helpful!

We will see if they call me back or return an email.... :nono:

#20 OFFLINE   TVBob

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 05:38 PM

My DISH 6000 finds 045-01 but the call letters are just blank (not "NON" as someone posted earlier). My DVR-921 finds digital 45, but never adds it to the guide no matter what tricks I tried.

I think the DVR-921 logic has some code that says no digital call letters = no way to list it in the guide, so just skip it. It should be an easy bug to fix, say:

// For KBHK SF prob. If call sign empty or blank, use "N/A" and continue
if ( *digital_callsign == '\0' || *digital_callsign == ' ' )

strcpy(digital_callsign, "N/A -DT");


I also left a voice mail message with the KBHK engineering dept. "Mark" or "Mike" (?) asking them to put the KBHK call letters in the digital stream so that we all can tune in KBHK-DT on our DVR-921s while Echostar is working on a bug fix.

KBHK seems to be the only digital station in the Bay Area not including station call letter ID in the digital stream. I wonder, are they violating any FCC rules? All licensed stations must identify themselves on the air periodically, one way or another, but I don't know if the rules require call letter identification in the digital stream (they should).
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