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Lance Armstrong banned for life,stripped of 7 Tour wins.


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#26 OFFLINE   Brandon Wedgeworth

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:29 AM

As a two time testicular cancer survivor, I can honestly say that I'm much more concerned with all the good that Lance Armstrong has done through LIVESTRONG than what he did or didn't do with regards to doping. Looking at the so called "evidence", it still consists almost entirely of testimony from other people. Third party (eye witness) testimony is widely agreed to be the least reliable form of "evidence".

Regardless of all of that, I sincerely home that this doesn't affect LIVESTRONG too negatively in the future. It's not one of the biggest cancer related charities, but it is among the most efficient at getting donations back into cancer research.

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#27 OFFLINE   Sharkie_Fan

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:06 AM

That wouldn't surprise me... I mean, I gather the sport has been "dirty" for a while.

Where I think an apology is owed, though... is all the people who accused the French of being against Armstrong out of jealousy.

With the cat pretty much out of the bag... all the people accused of only being anti-Armstrong out of jealousy are owed an apology in my opinion.

I'll even go first... because I was a pro-Armstrong guy at the time... and I too thought the French were just mad because an American was winning "their" sport... so, knowing what we appear to know now... I apologize for the ill will I had at the time in thinking that they were just jealous. It appears there was fire where there was smoke.


I tend to disagree with you here. The French leading the charge were doing so because they were jealous. There's not a doubt in my mind of that. That they were chasing down a guilty man is irrelevant, IMO.

They weren't chasing down Lance because they wanted to clean up the sport. They were chasing down Lance because they disliked him.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that 90% of the field was doing SOMETHING against the rules. It's not an uncommon practice to wear a testosterone patch after a grueling stage to help recover before the next stage. Not long enough to elevate your blood test, but long enough to "take the edge off". (At least that's the theory. I don't know if it actually works or not). Everybody knows it happens, but if you don't fail a test, then it's no harm, no foul.

From the sound of it, Lance's regimen may have been more sophisticated than some of the others... but they were all cheating. Lance is the poster boy for that generation of cheaters because the French hate him and they've been dying to catch him at something for years.

What's happening to Lance today is like a teacher who knows that the entire class got the answers to the test before hand... and instead of punishing the whole group, singles out the person who got the highest score and flunks only that student while the rest of the class gets the grade they "earned".

Yes, they caught a cheater. But they're ignoring the other 150+ racers who were all cheating with him.
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#28 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

Yes, they caught a cheater. But they're ignoring the other 150+ racers who were all cheating with him.


I don't disagree with the sentiment... but the only way to do that?

Shut down ALL professional sports today. Wait several years and start up again with a new crop of YOUNG people who have been rigorously tested for years.

I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

So... you can never get all the cheating out. All you can do is catch the ones you catch and hope others will stop on their own.

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#29 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:36 PM

I don't disagree with the sentiment... but the only way to do that?

Shut down ALL professional sports today. Wait several years and start up again with a new crop of YOUNG people who have been rigorously tested for years.

I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

So... you can never get all the cheating out. All you can do is catch the ones you catch and hope others will stop on their own.

Sadl but ture...your assessment is spot on right.

The whole thing is a shame on multiple fronts - the sport, the fans, and the other partipants.
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#30 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:00 AM

The fallout expands...Rabobank, a very large cycling team sponsor for the last 17 years from The Netherlands, a big cycling country, has dropped all support for sponsorships. They are including dropping support for women's cycling, so some question whether they used it as a reason for a business decision.

#31 OFFLINE   Sharkie_Fan

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:41 AM

I don't disagree with the sentiment... but the only way to do that?

Shut down ALL professional sports today. Wait several years and start up again with a new crop of YOUNG people who have been rigorously tested for years.

I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

So... you can never get all the cheating out. All you can do is catch the ones you catch and hope others will stop on their own.


That's the problem though, Stewart. I don't believe that this was an attempt to 'get the cheaters' as much as it was an endeavour to 'get Lance'.

Did he cheat? Yes. Was this a fair and impartial investigation aimed at cleaning up the sport as a whole? Not a chance.

I believe we will continue to see winners, leaders, participants, etc, caught cheating at the same rate they are now. Cycling will once again turn a blind eye to the cheating, IMO.
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#32 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:37 PM

That's the problem though, Stewart. I don't believe that this was an attempt to 'get the cheaters' as much as it was an endeavour to 'get Lance'.

Did he cheat? Yes. Was this a fair and impartial investigation aimed at cleaning up the sport as a whole? Not a chance.

I believe we will continue to see winners, leaders, participants, etc, caught cheating at the same rate they are now. Cycling will once again turn a blind eye to the cheating, IMO.


The thing is... you can say that about anyone caught doing anything... and it may even be true... but when a problem is as pervasive as everyone thinks it is... there's no way to get rid of ALL the people cheating at one time. You can only catch the ones you catch and move forward.

The world seems to have adopted the mindset that "it isn't cheating if you don't get caught"... so... as long as there are people, there will be people trying to get around rules and take risks to win... especially when the penalty for getting caught isn't worse than the rewards of getting away with it.

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#33 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:02 PM

Considered putting this in the TV reminders thread but thought if just put it here. My guide isn't updated, but he will be doing a "no holds barred" 90 minute interview with the tough and hard hitting Oprah on OWN, January 17 at 9 EST.

#34 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:03 PM

After learning how this guy was downright methodical in his destroying ANYone who dared to accuse him of doping, and of the manner in which he did dope, I think Armstrong is an absolute total piece of sh*t, nothing less than human debris. He ought to be shunned by everyone for life.

He lied to everyone, including his charity, which was a sham itself. What a scumbag this guy is.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#35 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:11 PM

After learning how this guy was downright methodical in his destroying ANYone who dared to accuse him of doping, and of the manner in which he did dope, I think Armstrong is an absolute total piece of sh*t, nothing less than human debris. He ought to be shunned by everyone for life.

He lied to everyone, including his charity, which was a sham itself. What a scumbag this guy is.


It hurts to type this... I agree with LV. ;)
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#36 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:12 PM

There's hope for you yet, my young apprentice.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#37 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

It hurts to type this... I agree with LV. ;)


Funny... I had the same thought :)

But, yeah... Vader nailed it here.

The actual cheating could have been defensible back then... even his early denials...

But, that he didn't just deny it... Lance Armstrong vilified anyone who dared accuse him... chastising, ruining reputations, and suing people AND winning!

That type of arrogance, to me, trumps all the drug charges... in fact, you can be sure the only reason he would be "repenting" now is because he knows it is he only way to keep living the high life to which he has become accustomed.

I feel sorry for anyone he trampled on, anyone who trusted/believed in him, and the people at his charity that really wanted to help cancer patients.

Armstrong even used to play the "I had cancer" card when people attacked him for doing drugs... hard to be much lower if you ask me.

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#38 OFFLINE   djlong

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:58 AM

I wouldn't be so quick to call his charity a sham.

Unless you're talking about the act of creating it being an attempt to salve his conscience.. THAT I could agree with - but from everything I've heard, the charity itself is reputable.

#39 ONLINE   yosoyellobo

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:42 AM

Does the end justified the mean. Not in this case. If he is taken to the cleaners by all those that been damage by his action so be it.

#40 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:53 PM

A charity that spends in excess of 40 cents to collect a dollar is not a reputable charity, IMHO.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#41 OFFLINE   djlong

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:56 AM

Well, at least I see where you're coming from. From that point of view, yeah, Livestrong, like so many other charities, can be measured as "wanting".

#42 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:48 AM

After seeing the recent episode of 60 Minutes where the USADA investigator was interviewed in length, I learned even more just how much of a vile human being Lance Armstrong truly is. I'd go so far as to say based on what I heard in that 60 Minutes piece about how Armstrong destroyed peoples' careers and lives if they dared to "spread lies" about his cheating (he actually went through with his threats against several persons), I don't believe he should ever be forgiven and ever allowed into competitive sports again. He's an evil person.

I also believe civil suits aren't punitive enough for this scumbag. He needs to spend time in jail for what he did.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#43 OFFLINE   fluffybear

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:18 AM

After seeing the recent episode of 60 Minutes where the USADA investigator was interviewed in length, I learned even more just how much of a vile human being Lance Armstrong truly is. I'd go so far as to say based on what I heard in that 60 Minutes piece about how Armstrong destroyed peoples' careers and lives if they dared to "spread lies" about his cheating (he actually went through with his threats against several persons), I don't believe he should ever be forgiven and ever allowed into competitive sports again. He's an evil person.

I also believe civil suits aren't punitive enough for this scumbag. He needs to spend time in jail for what he did.


I have not been following this close enough.. Is there proof he actually did destroy people's lives? No offense but when it comes to investigators, a lot of what they say needs to be investigated..

I won't disagree with you about Lance needing to serve time for what he did but I'm not convinced that USADA was not going to extra mile just to nail him.

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#44 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:14 AM

Well, one thing would be that while he claims he never made anyone dope, the reality is that anyone that didn't measure up performance wise wouldn't have lasted on the team. But in reality, would they have lasted on any team?

One thing I actually agree with Armstrong on, I cannot see how USADA can say that he led "the most sophisticated, professional and successful doping program sport has ever seen."

I just cannot see this as surpassing cases like East Germany.

#45 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:14 AM

I have not been following this close enough..


Apparently there is. The USADA investigator and the 60 Minutes journalist both discussed by name the persons Lance destroyed.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#46 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:17 AM

One thing I actually agree with Armstrong on, I cannot see how USADA can say that he led "the most sophisticated, professional and successful doping program sport has ever seen."

I just cannot see this as surpassing cases like East Germany.


From 60 Minutes' explanation, what Lance and several of his teammates did was, to say the least, one hell of a complex and elaborate cheating system.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#47 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:27 AM

I'm not saying it wasn't, though the system didn't help any if they didn't do out of competition testing. It's like MLB, they didn't exactly make it hard to dope in the past.

But I don't see it as being more sophisticated etc than an entire government sponsored system.

#48 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:29 AM

I think what differentiates it from others is how Armstrong vehemently denied ever doing anything wrong and actively went after anyone who dared to expose him, to the point where his threats became reality for some people, as he ruined the lives of more than one person, each of whom was totally correct in their accusations of Lance.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#49 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:31 AM

Now that I agree with.

#50 OFFLINE   fluffybear

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:18 PM

Apparently there is. The USADA investigator and the 60 Minutes journalist both discussed by name the persons Lance destroyed.



First, the interview was with Travis Tygart, USADA CEO and not an investigator.

Second, Tygart has had a hard on for Armstrong for many years and has made his personal mission to completely destroy Armstrong.

Third, I don't put a lot of faith in Greg LaMond's honesty either. LaMond and his wife like to claim that Armstrong destroyed them but one has to realize that sounds a lot better than saying, "we screwed up".

As I said before, I am not defending what Armstrong did and believe he needs to pay a severe price for his actions but by the same token have doubts about the honesty of Tygart and this entire investigation. In a lot of ways it gives the appearance of being a rather large witch hunt and nothing Armstrong will ever do will make Tygart happy.

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