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Lance Armstrong banned for life,stripped of 7 Tour wins.


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#51 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:02 PM

I don't normally support witch hunts... but when I do... I catch witches :)

But seriously... I was one who thought people were unfairly persecuting Armstrong for years. He wasn't a "hero" to me or anything, but the way he denied everything and sued people and ruined reputations of people who dared accuse him of cheating... well, it sure seemed like he must be clean or why open that pandora's box?

To then find out he was doing all of this stuff and himself daring to question people's motives or honesty... in my mind it makes him worse than they could ever have been.

Were there people pursuing Armstrong with less evidence but ulterior motives or bias? Sure. I'm sure there were... But was he arrogant and cheating and wrong and blatantly lying and ruining other honest people's reputations? YES!

Hindsight is 20/20... so I've already said I apologize for in my mind thinking the French were just jealous and wanting to get that American for winning "their" race... I fell into the trap of bias against the French... and I should have known better... but at least I didn't go after people's money and reputation to support the lies like Armstrong did.

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#52 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:33 PM

First, the interview was with Travis Tygart, USADA CEO and not an investigator.

Second, Tygart has had a hard on for Armstrong for many years and has made his personal mission to completely destroy Armstrong.


You mean like Armstrong making it his personal mission to destroy those who dared to expose his cheating? Of course, Tygart never did do that. Armstrong, however, did. He ruined the careers of more than one person.

BTW, I referenced Tygart as an investigator because I didn't have handy his title, and since he headed the investigation as the USADA CEO, I referred to him as one.


Third, I don't put a lot of faith in Greg LaMond's honesty either. LaMond and his wife like to claim that Armstrong destroyed them but one has to realize that sounds a lot better than saying, "we screwed up".


I wasn't referring to LaMond; rather, there were others whom 60 Minutes referenced and said their careers were ruined by Armstrong.

As I said before, I am not defending what Armstrong did and believe he needs to pay a severe price for his actions...


Prison time would be a good start.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#53 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:35 PM

Love this!

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#54 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:49 PM

First, the interview was with Travis Tygart, USADA CEO and not an investigator.

Second, Tygart has had a hard on for Armstrong for many years and has made his personal mission to completely destroy Armstrong.

Third, I don't put a lot of faith in Greg LaMond's honesty either. LaMond and his wife like to claim that Armstrong destroyed them but one has to realize that sounds a lot better than saying, "we screwed up".

As I said before, I am not defending what Armstrong did and believe he needs to pay a severe price for his actions but by the same token have doubts about the honesty of Tygart and this entire investigation. In a lot of ways it gives the appearance of being a rather large witch hunt and nothing Armstrong will ever do will make Tygart happy.

There's alot of reality and truth to those points. There are plenty of "bandwagon critics" when things turn sour.

I also recall how Ray Lewis was "going to be destroyed" on many fronts years ago for very nearly being charged within a murder case in Atlanta.

At that time, the general consensus was that not only was his career toast, but any chance for a personal life free of ridicule and turmoil would be gone.

My how things change. More information came out, and his life changed for the better. He admittedly made the best of the "turnaround", even though a number of folks (including me) don't personally care for him.

I'll only reference Bill Clinton and his bad choices and situations in the past as another example. He now is embraced as a public speaker and garners big bucks doing it. In the present time, Monica L. is a distant memory to many.

No doubt Lance Armstrong made some poor choices and those led to more bad choices. His various deeds over the past 10 years also led to alot of people getting badly-needed help and gaining improved lives based on his efforts.

I don't think anyone can really forecast how this situation will look 5 years from now.
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#55 OFFLINE   fluffybear

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:51 PM

I don't normally support witch hunts... but when I do... I catch witches :)


My concern is that the USADA is a private organization and pretty much can do what they want. They can continue to hound someone even after they have determined the individual did nothing wrong. I am not saying this is the case with Armstrong but from what I have read (this afternoon) on Tygart, this was a man who was not going to be happy until Armstrong went down.

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#56 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:52 PM

There's alot of reality and truth to those points. There are plenty of "bandwagon critics" when things turn sour.

I also recall how Ray Lewis was "going to be destroyed" on many fronts years ago for very nearly being charged within a murder case in Atlanta.

At that time, the general consensus was that not only was his career toast, but any chance for a personal life free of ridicule and turmoil would be gone.

My how things change. More information came out, and his life changed for the better. He admittedly made the best of the "turnaround", even though a number of folks (including me) don't personally care for him.

I'll only reference Bill Clinton and his bad choices and situations in the past as another example. He now is embraced as a public speaker and garners big bucks doing it. In the present time, Monica L. is a distant memory to many.

No doubt Lance Armstrong made some poor choices and those led to more bad choices. His various deeds over the past 10 years also led to alot of people getting badly-needed help and gaining improved lives based on his efforts.

I don't think anyone can really forecast how this situation will look 5 years from now.


Considering how he poorly managed his charity, how he used it, IMHO, to advance his fraudulent career (sure, a few folks might have been helped, but that was probably more so by accident), I can't agree that any good he did, of which there was little, made any difference.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#57 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

My concern is that the USADA is a private organization and pretty much can do what they want. They can continue to hound someone even after they have determined the individual did nothing wrong. I am not saying this is the case with Armstrong but from what I have read (this afternoon) on Tygart, this was a man who was not going to be happy until Armstrong went down.


Tygart did not start out from the very beginning with that attitude. It developed, understandably, after he kept getting the runaround from Armstrong. When it became clear Armstrong was running an elaborate, extensive, deceptive doping/cheating ring, stonewalling the USADA, lying, and threatening numerous people, Tygart included, it's understandable the latter made it his goal to nail Armstrong, and for that, Tygart should be commended.

Tygart wasn't the one who wanted this "vendetta". It was Lance who caused it. Now he has to suffer the consequences.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#58 OFFLINE   fluffybear

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

Love this!


One can only hope that you do not believe this letter was real.

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#59 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

You mean it isn't? OMG!!!

(Duh.)

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#60 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

My concern is that the USADA is a private organization and pretty much can do what they want. They can continue to hound someone even after they have determined the individual did nothing wrong. I am not saying this is the case with Armstrong but from what I have read (this afternoon) on Tygart, this was a man who was not going to be happy until Armstrong went down.


I would have to know the mindset of the guy... A cop who harasses people as a rule might be unhinged... but a cop who doggedly pursues a specific person whom he knows (but cannot yet prove) is guilty, might be worthy of a commendation when finally catching the culprit.

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#61 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:51 PM

I agree. It sounds like he strongly believed Lance was deeply involved in an extensive doping program and wanted to pursue Lance to get enough proof to convincingly nail him.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#62 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:05 PM

Considering how he poorly managed his charity, how he used it, IMHO, to advance his fraudulent career (sure, a few folks might have been helped, but that was probably more so by accident), I can't agree that any good he did, of which there was little, made any difference.

I personally know of 2 hospitals that received funds from his charity, and gratefully so. Many people were helped by those contributions.

You could not be more wrong about those moneys failing to do good, or doing so "by accident".

That's not meant to (in any way) condone his bad decisions and actions...rather...it's to take a more realistic perspective in contrast to a cynical view.
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#63 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

You could not be more wrong about those moneys failing to do good, or doing so "by accident".


I never said that. You misinterpreted what I said.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#64 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:04 PM

I never said that. You misinterpreted what I said.

Considering how he poorly managed his charity, how he used it, IMHO, to advance his fraudulent career (sure, a few folks might have been helped, but that was probably more so by accident), I can't agree that any good he did, of which there was little, made any difference.

That post speaks for itself...nothing to misinterpret.
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#65 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:40 PM

Sorry, but it's clear that you misinterpreted my post. Any good that he did made little difference; he's guilty. If a murderer saves 100 children, does that lessen his crimes of killing 10? All of Lance's charity work is irrelevant; it has no impact upon his cheating.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#66 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:45 PM

Sorry, but it's clear that you misinterpreted my post. Any good that he did made little difference; he's guilty. If a murderer saves 100 children, does that lessen his crimes of killing 10? All of Lance's charity work is irrelevant; it has no impact upon his cheating.


Then why didn't you say that? Instead, you claimed that the charity had been ineffective and poorly managed.
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#67 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:57 PM

It was. You simply misconstrued my post to mean his "good" actions didn't affect the charity. I meant that his good actions have had no effect on his cheating, his lying, his entire reputation. Perhaps the original post was a wee bit ambiguous. ;)

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#68 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:19 AM

Sorry, but it's clear that you misinterpreted my post. Any good that he did made little difference; he's guilty. If a murderer saves 100 children, does that lessen his crimes of killing 10? All of Lance's charity work is irrelevant; it has no impact upon his cheating.

Your original post, as well as this one...is easy to understand. You basically are saying in this 2nd post that no matter what he did that could be construed as a positive thing, it doesn't matter to you because of his actions toward doping. That's different than your statement in the 1st post, but appreicate the clarity to your view.

All that said - respectfully disagree.

There may not be any positive value in terms of how people perceive him overall in the context of his negative actions...but there is plenty of positive and lasting impact of how the recipients gained from the positive charity activities he performed.

Looking at the big picture - the glass is not half empty here, nor half full...it's completely full - part negative and part positive.

Just ask the cancer patients and others who have better lives because the funds were there to treat them, regardless of what happens to Lance at this point. At one hospital alone, there were literally hundreds of beneficiaries.

Unfortunately he made some very foolish choices that now pretty much prevent him from continuing the positive activities.
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#69 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:44 PM

I get where Vader is coming from, though...

Say there is a serial killer (to go to an extreme)... but he is also a philanthropist... so he kills by night BUT by day he contributes to a charity that does good work.

The charity doesn't mitigate his serial killing does it? He isn't a "good" guy because he also helps, right?

And the charity... even if no fault of their own... kind of gets associated with the serial killer and it taints them a bit.

That's all I think Vader is saying.

Lance isn't helped by his charity work, because the bad he has done personally outweighs any good he has done... From the charity's perspective, even if they were good and didn't know about Lance, they still carry a bit of that negative with them going forward because of being associated... whether fair or not.

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#70 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:05 PM

I get where Vader is coming from, though...

That's all I think Vader is saying.

Lance isn't helped by his charity work, because the bad he has done personally outweighs any good he has done... From the charity's perspective, even if they were good and didn't know about Lance, they still carry a bit of that negative with them going forward because of being associated... whether fair or not.


You are correct. A good reiteration of what I was trying to get across.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#71 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:11 PM

Lance isn't helped by his charity work, because the bad he has done personally outweighs any good he has done... From the charity's perspective, even if they were good and didn't know about Lance, they still carry a bit of that negative with them going forward because of being associated... whether fair or not.

Your summation certainly is concise - no disagreement to it.

My issue with a previous post was the clear inference that the good stuff had no value just because it was initiated by Lance. Thanks for your rendition.
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#72 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:13 PM

Your summation certainly is concise - no disagreement to it.

My issue with a previous post was the clear inference that the good stuff had no value just because it was initiated by Lance. Thanks for your rendition.


Except that the inference wasn't clear. :raspberry

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 


#73 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:16 PM

Except that the inference wasn't clear. :raspberry

It was quite clear to the 3 people who read it and told me that they came to the exact same "mis-interpretation". :eek2:

So we can now move on.
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#74 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

Hey! I can't help it they couldn't understand what they're reading. What about the 4 people who told ME they understood things perfectly. :P

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

 





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