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2012 - 2013 NFL Discussion Thread


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#26 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:03 AM

There will always be missed or blown calls but with these refs they're extreme. Most of the time you can argue it both ways. However these refs are just missing things that are obvious and even on replays they get it wrong. Cobb's TD return for instance when they picked up the flag for block in the back. They may have called the wrong person for it but then in the replay there was an obvious one. On all scoring plays the entire play is review able and they missed it again.

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#27 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:24 AM

There will always be missed or blown calls but with these refs they're extreme. Most of the time you can argue it both ways. However these refs are just missing things that are obvious and even on replays they get it wrong. Cobb's TD return for instance when they picked up the flag for block in the back. They may have called the wrong person for it but then in the replay there was an obvious one. On all scoring plays the entire play is review able and they missed it again.


The entire play is reviewable... but they can't call a penalty that they didn't call before. Otherwise, on almost every reviewable play they could probably call "holding" on a lineman... and they don't want to get into that can of worms.

So... review replay has never been able to result in a flag that wasn't dropped being dropped.

So, if the refs screw up and call it wrong... replay can't be used to do anything but pick up that flag... it can't be used to drop another flag elsewhere.

That doesn't defend missing the block in the back... just explaining how replay can't fix that kind of mistake.

This happens a LOT, even with the regular refs.

So... my grading of the replacement refs has a lot to do with how they perform based on comparison to my memory of regular refs in the past.

Remember the regular refs make a lot of these kind of mistakes too... and games have been lost.

As for picking on stupid ref mistakes... Remember a few years ago when the regular refs screwed up the coin toss in an overtime game? The ref got the call on a coin toss wrong! That's about as silly of a mistake as you can get... and I didn't see anything on that level with the replacement refs this weekend.

Yeah, they goofed a lot on the pre-season... but they cleaned all that up it looks like to me.

I actually think the NFL should cough up the money and pay the regular refs... but all things considered, I can't argue that these replacements did a bad job.

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#28 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:18 AM

The entire play is reviewable... but they can't call a penalty that they didn't call before. Otherwise, on almost every reviewable play they could probably call "holding" on a lineman... and they don't want to get into that can of worms.


I can understand not getting into minor infractions on a review, but major, potentially game changing ones??

Is this a written rule, or just established practice?
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#29 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:58 PM

I can understand not getting into minor infractions on a review, but major, potentially game changing ones??

Is this a written rule, or just established practice?


I couldn't find the current rules... but from the 2011 rulebook at NFL.com, the pertinent section is:

"Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
3. Penalty administration
4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Recovery of a loose ball that does not involve a boundary line or the end zone.
7. Field-goal or Try attempts that cross above either upright without touching anything.
8. Inadvertent Whistle"

So unless they changed it... they specifically wrote in that you can't use replay to administer penalties. Curiously, that also means they shouldn't be able to NOT enforce a called penalty as a result of replay.

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#30 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:41 PM

Wow! And thank you!

I would have breezed past "Administer Penalties" as to how they were handled, rather than the somewhat outdated use of "administer" to mean "give out".

Among the things on my to do list is to download and read said NFL rules, and the vehicle code for the state of CA.... wonder which will be the tougher read? :grin:
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#31 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:32 AM

Yeah... I have to think they will re-visit this at some point.

I get why (as we discussed) they don't want to use replay to hand out holding penalties or various other things that might be present more than half of the time and are subjective anyway...

But, much like they do now review all scoring and all ruled-turnover plays... I would like to see them be able to rule on SOME other penalty situations.

Like... if there are too many men on the field (I think college replay can be used to count players and issue that penalty unless I'm remembering wrong).

OR in the case of the block in the back, you should be able to see this and issue OR recall a penalty if you can clearly see someone did or did not block in the back. That's not subjective, you either blocked in the back or did not...

Pass interference, however, has a subjective component... so I wouldn't want that to be reviewable... much like the old force-out rule (now gone anyway) wasn't reviewable.

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#32 OFFLINE   JACKIEGAGA

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:44 PM

Nice fake FG by the Packers

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#33 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:33 PM

Go Pack Go !!!

1-1, baby!

Get that perfect season BS off our back.



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#34 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:06 AM

I'm surprised... Green Bay looked pretty bad on Sunday... Chicago looked pretty good...

What a reversal of fortune in 4 days.

I'm not so much surprised by the Packers victory as I am the ineptitude of Chicago... I expected a close/competitive game, and though I did pick Chicago... I wasn't expecting a rout.

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#35 OFFLINE   coldsteel

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:00 AM

So how could they force that 12th Man penalty on Chicago, Stewart?
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#36 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:52 PM

Pack is Back.

Cutler still the most over-rated QB in the NFL.

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#37 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:05 PM

So how could they force that 12th Man penalty on Chicago, Stewart?


I fell asleep during the game... seriously... so you'll have to help me out here.

IF you're referring to my earlier conversation on replay... Did they use replay to call a penalty?

IF so... then either they broke the rules to do so OR the rule has been changed since 2011. I couldn't find anything more current on the NFL Web site than 2011 for the rulebook... so I can't say if something has changed since then.

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#38 OFFLINE   JACKIEGAGA

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:19 PM

Tough week 2 for the Refs

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#39 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:23 PM

Looks to me like the single most problematic call has been with pass interference. We had a LOT called in week 1... and now in week 2 it looked like some teams were getting away with murder.

I would chalk that up to inexperienced refs not familiar with the rule and having to get a feel for it... then course correcting too far the other direction.

IF the strike lasts all season, then I would expect these refs to eventually get more calls right than wrong, and then next season it will be much harder to tell the difference between them and the experienced refs.

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#40 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:29 PM

What chaps my hide more than anything is spearing or other flagrant, dangerous conduct, especially in the end zone after the touchdown is fact.

Is there a mechanism in the NFL to review game films and levy fines after the fact? Is that info publicly available?
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#41 OFFLINE   ARKDTVfan

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:05 AM

pay the refs!!!

this is pathetic and last night's MNF was a joke (yet no one's laughing) :nono2:

#42 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:33 AM

pay the refs!!!

this is pathetic and last night's MNF was a joke (yet no one's laughing) :nono2:

The officiating on a national broadcast stage last night was exceptionally embarrassing, especially to the NFL I'm sure.

The number of reversed calls alone probably set a record for one game.

I'm sure the "rent-a-refs" are working hard and trying...but lack the experience and knowledge that the regular guys provide....and boy does it show.

As for the game - it was pretty sloppy in and of itself.

The fact that Atlanta didn't clean Denver's clock in the first half alone from those turnovers makes one a bit suspect of their actual strength. Yes, they won, but by a ridiculously small margin given the "handouts" of turnovers. I suspect we didn't see either team's true colors for the rest of this season.
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#43 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:59 AM

I see two things in play here... neither of which are the replacement refs fault:

1. Most importantly, these guys (and the one gal) were literally brought in off the street and said "go ref the games" with not enough time to train and learn the NFL rules. For these refs, the pre-season was not nearly enough experience to get them ready for the regular season. Through no fault of their own, they are missing calls and being slow at getting others right.

2. A secondary thing, that reared its head clearly this weekend AND last night... The players and coaches know #1, and are trying to leverage that against these refs.

Coach Fox last night was going OFF railing at officials in the first half over a 12-men on defense call against Denver... and yet, the video clearly showed Denver did in fact have 12 men on the field... and worse, they did it again in the 2nd half BUT called a timeout before penalty that second time.

The points I'm making here are... The refs have their hands full... that's bad... but what's worse, to me, are the players and coaches trying to take advantage of the "substitute teachers" and be disrespectful in ways they wouldn't dream of with the regular refs.

It would make the job tremendously easier IF coaches and players would stay out of the NFL vs Ref strike AND would grant the replacement refs some manner of respect and not try to get away with stuff OR berate them until you get your way.

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#44 OFFLINE   steve053

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:26 PM

.....2. A secondary thing, that reared its head clearly this weekend AND last night... The players and coaches know #1, and are trying to leverage that against these refs.

Coach Fox last night was going OFF railing at officials in the first half over a 12-men on defense call against Denver... and yet, the video clearly showed Denver did in fact have 12 men on the field... and worse, they did it again in the 2nd half BUT called a timeout before penalty that second time.

The points I'm making here are... The refs have their hands full... that's bad... but what's worse, to me, are the players and coaches trying to take advantage of the "substitute teachers" and be disrespectful in ways they wouldn't dream of with the regular refs.

It would make the job tremendously easier IF coaches and players would stay out of the NFL vs Ref strike AND would grant the replacement refs some manner of respect and not try to get away with stuff OR berate them until you get your way.


I agree completely.

The NFL could curb some of this by sending 'warning' letters to offending coaches. Then hand out fines if the behavior continues. Wouldn't be the first time someone was fined after the fact.

I wonder if the players 'code of conduct' could fall under this as well.
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#45 OFFLINE   coldsteel

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:06 PM

I fell asleep during the game... seriously... so you'll have to help me out here.

IF you're referring to my earlier conversation on replay... Did they use replay to call a penalty?

IF so... then either they broke the rules to do so OR the rule has been changed since 2011. I couldn't find anything more current on the NFL Web site than 2011 for the rulebook... so I can't say if something has changed since then.


Yeah, sorry for the delay. They used replay, from a coach challenge, to show that Chicago didn't get a 12th man off the field before the snap.
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#46 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:40 PM

Yeah, sorry for the delay. They used replay, from a coach challenge, to show that Chicago didn't get a 12th man off the field before the snap.


There may be some exceptions then... for something concrete like a 12th man penalty where they could just look and count.

Whereas a lot of the other types of penalties are judgment calls... so maybe they did tweak the rules to allow for some kinds of penalties, but still not most.

I wish I could have found a newer version of the rules AND that their rulebook was easier to find stuff inside!

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#47 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:05 AM

There may be some exceptions then... for something concrete like a 12th man penalty where they could just look and count.

Whereas a lot of the other types of penalties are judgment calls... so maybe they did tweak the rules to allow for some kinds of penalties, but still not most.

With multiple reversals, including one by an official of his own original call in the Atlanta/Denver game...the "judgment" skills in numerous cases seems to be that of a cantaloupe. The issues cited by reams of broadcasters and fans are often not "close calls". They are no-brainers in plenty of cases.

The players are complaining, the coaches are complaining, the fans are outraged, and the broadcasters reference it regularly in every NFL game.

It's an officiating circus right now - people simply have no way of knowing how game play will be judged. It also impacts the momentum and perhaps outcomes of some games. A travesty and nothing less.

The irony is how people frequently questioned the "real" officials in the past. In comparison, they look like geniuses.

Edited by hdtvfan0001, 19 September 2012 - 06:00 AM.

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#48 OFFLINE   rajmarie

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:06 AM

I am finding this season....there are tooooo many interruption. & we are just 2 weeks old in this season.

#49 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:13 AM

For all the things I've pointed out bad about the replacement refs... I'm still sorry to remind people that in the past we have had MANY complaints about the "real" refs...

Remember years ago the Jets getting a touchdown that wasn't and ultimately that left Cleveland out of the playoffs on a tie-break and their coach was fired?

Remember Denver beating San Diego a few years ago when they got an extra set of downs on a penalty that didn't happen?

Remember the overtime coin toss that the ref got wrong and gave the other team the ball? The coin toss! Really?

So... let's not pretend the regular refs were infallible... and let's not pretend that we didn't have many Monday morning "how bad were those refs" rants and conversations.

Some are talking as if getting back the regular refs would mean 100% greatness and zero complaints. We know that simply isn't true.

I want this settled too... but I'm not going to feed myself the fantasy that these replacement refs are the ruination of the game yet.

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#50 OFFLINE   JACKIEGAGA

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:17 PM

These Thursday Night games are tough on us east coasters especially when there is work tomorrow.

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