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Guest Message by DevFuse

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HR24 dying - can you tell me which part?


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#41 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:32 AM

Rich, you know how on pc power supplies there is usually a +5v, +12v, sometimes a +3.3v, etc....outputs, those are referred to as rails. Sometimes when a psu goes bad only one of the rails goes bad, say the +12v....


PC power supplys seem a lot simpler to troubleshoot than the power supplys on the HR24s, but I don't think it really matters (to me, at least), if the front panel lights don't work the PS seems to be bad. I've only replaced 3 boards, but all 3 boards turned dead 24-500s into working 500s. To me a ten minute job to fix something is better than spending hours troubleshooting components.

I've done a lot of troubleshooting and it was always under pressure. Nobody cared what I did as long as I got the equipment running. I just never had time to "fix" a component part.

Appreciate the explanation, that was a good analogy.

Rich

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#42 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:02 AM

It's just a couple minutes: using your old good Fluke 25 and measure all 5(!) rails.

It would cut any guess what happened: PSU or main board failed ?

These LED are not for such diagnostics. They could, they could not lite up if PSU is partially dead.

Remember - the LED are controlling by CPU, what is actually need one 3.3V rail, so if +5V or/and +12V is down, you'll see the lights, but your box will not functioning properly.

Perhaps it was just your 'luck' - the model and its PSU are shows consistent point of failures. What would be good to know, but not good enough to spread over to all models and to other particular device.

#43 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:40 AM

It's just a couple minutes: using your old good Fluke 25 and measure all 5(!) rails.

It would cut any guess what happened: PSU or main board failed ?

These LED are not for such diagnostics. They could, they could not lite up if PSU is partially dead.

Remember - the LED are controlling by CPU, what is actually need one 3.3V rail, so if +5V or/and +12V is down, you'll see the lights, but your box will not functioning properly.

Perhaps it was just your 'luck' - the model and its PSU are shows consistent point of failures. What would be good to know, but not good enough to spread over to all models and to other particular device.


I've got a feeling that if the front panel is dead on any of the 24s, the first place to look would be the PS board. Only takes a couple minutes to replace it if you have a good one on hand (and I do). Seems like a sensible approach to me.

One more note, if I can't solder a connection with a blow torch, I don't want to do it. I had several nice soldering irons and other soldering contraptions when I was with the tools and I never used them. Not that I can't solder, I just don't like to do it.

Rich

#44 OFFLINE   bigglebowski

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:29 PM

Just wanted to jump into the general discussion of measuring power supplies. Computer power supplies (atx) can be easy to diagnose if you are familiar with shorting the green wire to one of the black wires which is essentially the power on switch for that type of power supply. Otherwise all you would ever have working was a single 5v lead.

While I have repaired my fair share of receivers I havent really opened one since a D12. Even if the "rails" (never heard this term outside of PCs) are labeled that does not mean you will be able to measure them all unless the unit is fully up and working properly. In an "off" state usually there is only either a "stand by voltage" of 5v or 3v, if the lines are labeled one will be referred to as SB since it may have a separate 5v that has more current supply. So a line labeled 12v not working simply means that the "main" board has not given the power supply the command to turn on.

If you know how to "force" the power supply into an on state outside of a receiver or a TV that does not mean under the normal load the 12v will be a stable 12v. Just like your car battery may read close to 12v on a voltmeter but when the heavy duty starter kicks in that voltage drops to a level that will not even spin the starter like in Ford trucks that have heavy duty starter motors.

As P stated earlier I too would lean on the main board being the problem rather than the PS but that is why it really is a guess without actually doing some testing. For me the receivers I fixed over the years the older they were the power supplies were more common the newer ones were almost always the main.

Whats unique in this instance is the device in question is almost never owned by the end user so finding a used one that you can just swap parts out of is rare. Then there is the fact that this is the newest simple DVR, so finding parts to fix HR20 models would be a more likely scenario.

#45 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:49 PM

BL,

You bring here little more noise then necessary ... If we will start discuss how PSU working for a eBook then it will be more complicated then you brought from PC world.


FYI, DVR and receiver's PSU are working regardless on/off mode. So the PSU constantly holding all ralis/voltages.

#46 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:19 AM

Just wanted to jump into the general discussion of measuring power supplies. Computer power supplies (atx) can be easy to diagnose if you are familiar with shorting the green wire to one of the black wires which is essentially the power on switch for that type of power supply. Otherwise all you would ever have working was a single 5v lead.

While I have repaired my fair share of receivers I havent really opened one since a D12. Even if the "rails" (never heard this term outside of PCs) are labeled that does not mean you will be able to measure them all unless the unit is fully up and working properly. In an "off" state usually there is only either a "stand by voltage" of 5v or 3v, if the lines are labeled one will be referred to as SB since it may have a separate 5v that has more current supply. So a line labeled 12v not working simply means that the "main" board has not given the power supply the command to turn on.

If you know how to "force" the power supply into an on state outside of a receiver or a TV that does not mean under the normal load the 12v will be a stable 12v. Just like your car battery may read close to 12v on a voltmeter but when the heavy duty starter kicks in that voltage drops to a level that will not even spin the starter like in Ford trucks that have heavy duty starter motors.

As P stated earlier I too would lean on the main board being the problem rather than the PS but that is why it really is a guess without actually doing some testing. For me the receivers I fixed over the years the older they were the power supplies were more common the newer ones were almost always the main.

Whats unique in this instance is the device in question is almost never owned by the end user so finding a used one that you can just swap parts out of is rare. Then there is the fact that this is the newest simple DVR, so finding parts to fix HR20 models would be a more likely scenario.


I think the HR20-700s have an integrated PS with the motherboard. Don't remember opening any 21s.

I don't really remember if the 24's PS has any voltage markings on them, I'll look the next time I open one of mine up. They (at least the 24-500s) don't have any voltage markings on them that I can remember. And they connect to the motherboard by many pin connectors. Don't remember seeing any voltage markings on them, either. They're just not like the PC power supplys. Every one of them I've seen had the marking on the wires. Not so on the 24-500s.

Rich

#47 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 08:55 AM

Don't worry Rich, this is pretty standard PSU, integrated or not; usually there are +3.3V/+5V/+9V or +12V, could be +7V, and +20V (for LNBF), also could be OVP line (not a rail, but a signal: +2.5V if it's normal ). You'll get it in no time, baby ! :)

#48 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:03 AM

Don't worry Rich, this is pretty standard PSU, integrated or not; usually there are +3.3V/+5V/+9V or +12V, could be +7V, and +20V (for LNBF), also could be OVP line (not a rail, but a signal: +2.5V if it's normal ). You'll get it in no time, baby ! :)


No, I won't. No matter how much you push me, I'm not gonna sit down and dissect a PS. I'd rather just put a good PS in and if that doesn't work, I'll get a replacement. I can't imagine sitting down with that monstrous Fluke and picking apart a PS.... :lol:

Rich

#49 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:05 AM

No need make it more complicated then it is. ;)
It will take a couple minutes to check 10 wires total. C'mon !

You don't need "dissect" that !

#50 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:16 AM

No need make it more complicated then it is. ;)
It will take a couple minutes to check 10 wires total. C'mon !

You don't need "dissect" that !


Have you seen a 24's PS?

Rich

#51 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:04 AM

I would if you'll post a picture of it here. :)

#52 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 06:45 PM

I would if you'll post a picture of it here. :)


And you already know I'm not gonna take a picture of it... :lol:

Rich

#53 OFFLINE   mobandit

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:11 PM

Meanwhile....:backtotop

Which was a question by an individual who was having trouble with his particular DVR...not a technical discussion of how a PS works...

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#54 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:18 PM

Tsk, tsk, tsk ...

#55 OFFLINE   dan42353

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:46 AM

The damn thing powered on and stayed on. It did this the 1 other time I left it unplugged for a few days but when I woke up the next day it was not working (making the rev-ing sound of fans and/or hd booting for a fraction of a second, then dying, then retrying). I'll have to wait until it fails to tell you if the lights on the front come on while it attempts to turn on.

Rich, thanks for the link!

P Smith, your more technical posts are what I thought I would find at this forum in the first place. Tomorrow if you still think its a good idea (after reading what I just said) I will figure out how to do what you have suggested.

#56 OFFLINE   dan42353

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:50 AM

If someone is going to the trouble of measuring voltage coming out of a power supply trying to figure out if its bad. They might as well go ahead and do component level repair instead of searching ebay for a used one. Much cheaper and might actually learn something doing it that way, if they don't make it explode instead.


I replaced capacitors on a monitor. I didn't know **** about it but it was such a common problem there was a guide I followed like a good monkey. IS there one for this?

#57 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:03 AM

Rich, thanks for the link!

P Smith, your more technical posts are what I thought I would find at this forum in the first place. Tomorrow if you still think its a good idea (after reading what I just said) I will figure out how to do what you have suggested.


What Link did Rich give you as I would like to have that Link also as I guided Rich to PSmith to get PS Info from him so can you share that Link with me also?
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#58 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 09:34 AM

What Link did Rich give you as I would like to have that Link also as I guided Rich to PSmith to get PS Info from him so can you share that Link with me also?


I didn't send him the link, Rich. I just told him I found a cheap working (supposedly, it is eBay, after all) 24-200 that he could buy and cannibalize for parts. It "probably" has a good PS. Worth a shot anyhow.

Rich

Edited by Rich, 22 September 2012 - 08:38 AM.
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#59 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 09:40 AM

I didn't send him the link, Rich. I just told him I found a cheap leased working (supposedly, it is eBay, after all) 24-200 that he could buy and cannibalize for parts. It "probably" has a good PS. Worth a shot anyhow.

That's OK I'm sure.

The visual image of RichieRich doing "surgery" inside an HR24 would closely resemble a MASH episode most likely. :D

[Did I just say that out loud....?......sorry RR]
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#60 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 09:56 AM

That's OK I'm sure.

The visual image of RichieRich doing "surgery" inside an HR24 would closely resemble a MASH episode most likely. :D

[Did I just say that out loud....?......sorry RR]


Not gonna touch that..... :lol:

Rich




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