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HR24-200 Sibilance


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55 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:49 AM

I am a fringe high-end audiophile cursed with really sensitive ears. Let's not stoop to the cheap shots and focus instead on solving an issue.

I have a new HR24-200 with a severe sibilance issue. Connecting the HR24-200 to the Samsung 650 series TV via a BetterCables HDMI cable.

Swapping the BetterCables with a Monster Cable 1.3a compatible improved but did not eliminate this issue.

This is the only signal source with this problem (BluRay, streaming audio, analog sources are all perfect).

Has anyone else noticed this extreme exaggeration of SSSSSS sounds regardless of channel from the HR24-200? If so, what did you do to eliminate it?

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#2 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:11 AM

If you are using the TV speakers, try adjusting your EQ since there are no adjustments in the HR receivers.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM, HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#3 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:07 PM

Thanks for the thought but my system is not connected in this manner.

Here's the scheme:

HR24-200>HDMI>Samsung 650>RCA>Preamp>RCA>Power Amp>Speakers

I do not have a digital optical input on the Samsung TV or the Preamp.

#4 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:25 PM

My Samsung LN46A650 has an Equalizer.
Menu, Sound, Equalizer

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM, HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#5 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:48 PM

When running the outputs through the RCA jacks, the EQ in the 650 series is defeated. EQ works with the built-in speakers only.

Tested absolute electrical phase of the receiver and outboard LNB power supply just now. Receiver was fine but the outboard PS was wrong. After correcting it, there was no audible improvement.

#6 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:49 PM

Thanks for the thought but my system is not connected in this manner.

Here's the scheme:

HR24-200>HDMI>Samsung 650>RCA>Preamp>RCA>Power Amp>Speakers

I do not have a digital optical input on the Samsung TV or the Preamp.


We run both our systems by running video direct to the TV and an Optical or Digital coax from the receiver to the Yamaha AV receiver.
The sound is way better than using the red and white connectors.

Have you tried bypassing the TV and run the red and white cables directly to the Preamp from the HR24 ?
All outputs are live all the time on the HR24.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM, HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#7 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:57 PM

Not yet, but I plan to. Watcing thw WV game now and my wife is a huge fan. I'd risk...well you get the iedea. Stay tuned.

#8 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:59 PM

I hear that !
LOL

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM, HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#9 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:49 AM

Tried swapping the audio cables and comparing the two. Results were this: sibilance persisted in both cases.

This I presume is the last ghasp at rectifying this issue from an external approach.

Any chances of someone having a schematic for this beast?

#10 OFFLINE   The Merg

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:42 AM

When running the outputs through the RCA jacks, the EQ in the 650 series is defeated. EQ works with the built-in speakers only.

Tested absolute electrical phase of the receiver and outboard LNB power supply just now. Receiver was fine but the outboard PS was wrong. After correcting it, there was no audible improvement.


Just as a point of reference, what happens if you use the TV's built-in speakers and adjust the EQ then? Does that resolve the issue?

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Today's problems don't worry me, I haven't solved yesterday's yet.

SlimLine-3 Dish w/ SWM16 (HD Service / WHDVR) / Full Setup
HR34-700 / Panasonic TC-P50G25 HDTV / HDMI / Networked - DECA / Family Room
HR44-700 / Samsung HCM5525W HDTV / Component / Networked - DECA / Bedroom

HR24-100 / Samsung HCM5525W HDTV / Component / Networked - DECA / Bedroom


#11 OFFLINE   studechip

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:08 AM

Are you hearing the hissing only from the tv or through your amp also? I'm confused as to why you have your connections as they are. I'm assuming you are not running the rest of your audio connections through your tv, so why are you using the Samsung to route the audio for the HR24? Try going directly to the pre/power amp from the HR24 and see if that helps.

#12 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:45 AM

phil

Have you gone into Menu, Settings, Audio and turned Dolby Digital to OFF and see how that sounds ?

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM, HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#13 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:16 AM

Thanks for the thought but my system is not connected in this manner.

Here's the scheme:

HR24-200>HDMI>Samsung 650>RCA>Preamp>RCA>Power Amp>Speakers

I do not have a digital optical input on the Samsung TV or the Preamp.


As another audiofool, why are you going through your TV? Is it just for the volume control? Do you have a remote controlled volume control on the preamp you could use instead?

I think jimmie57 is onto some things.

1) If you can, go digital out from your receiver to the preamp. Bypass the television and stay in the digital realm. You probably won't have as many lip sync issues this way, too. This would be a lot simpler signal path with less chance of problems.

2) If you can't stay digital from the DVR to the preamp, at least bypass the television if you can, that is, if you don't need its volume control.

3) Make sure your receiver is switched out of Dolby Digital to PCM. You aren't getting Dolby Digital out, anyway, going with your analog feed.

Televisions are notorious for having terrible audio stages. I've got to think your problem lies there. Do what you have to do to get it out of the system. Even if your preamp isn't remote controllable (many high end ones aren't), you can at least test this theory by temporarily running an RCA from the DVR into the preamp and see if your sibilance issues go away.

Until then, you have my sympathy.

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#14 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:49 AM

I am a fringe high-end audiophile


HR24-200>HDMI>Samsung 650>RCA>Preamp>RCA>Power Amp>Speakers


FAIL

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#15 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:17 PM

FAIL

Yeah, that's looks against OP self characterization:
HR24-200>HDMI>Samsung 650>RCA>Preamp>RCA>Power Amp>Speakers

It would be good to know what is "Preamp" and what is "Power Amp". Perhaps what is used on far end: "Speakers" ?

#16 OFFLINE   JerryMeeker

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:51 PM

I would bet that not many HR24 users are using the analog outputs from the DVR. Most of use use a digital output, either HDMI or optical. It is entirely possible that there is something wrong with the analog output, either in general, or on his specific unit. The obvious recommendation, as several have pointed out, is to switch to a digital connection directly to the preamp. We need to have more information from the OP with regards to the capabilities of the preamp--it may not have an available digital input.

#17 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:24 PM

I am a fringe high-end audiophile cursed with really sensitive ears.


If so why use analog audio?

Since you don't say what preamp and power amp you use none of us know if it supports digital. If it does, which I would think a "high-end audiophile" would have a digital AVR, you should run your HDMI to your AVR then to your TV.
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#18 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:16 AM

I wish the OP would return to answer some of our questions but I can think of a situation where an audiophile would need the analog out of his DVR. He might be using some old gear for the audio system.

I have a bunch of old audio electronics lying around, including three analog preamps from the 1980s: a Frank Van Alstine modified Dynaco PAS2, a NAD 1300 and a Mark Levinson ML-7. I am an audio pack rat but there are other folks like me. This old gear comes out of my basement storage room every now and then, usually because something breaks in my two channel, vinyl playback system. I could make up an outstanding two channel system for video use with analog equipment I own that rarely gets used. If television is not a big thing for the OP, and for some audiophiles it isn't, he might well use discarded electronics for his TV sound.

None of those 1980s preamps I own have digital inputs or remote controls. That's why he might be running his analog audio through his TV for a remote volume control, and why I asked the questions I did in my post upthread.

Hey, inline_phil, come back and tell us what's going on with your system.
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#19 OFFLINE   spacemanrocks

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:52 AM

My first post yay!

I just had direct hooked up at my apartment yesterday and love it beyond words. I too noticed this issue on my HR24-200 once the installer left. Currently using a Sony A/V 7.1 receiver and have the HR24, a PS3 and a WDTV Live Hub all hooked up via HDMI. The PS3 and WDTV didn't show the same symptoms, so I went in and switched Dolby Digital off (as was suggested above). Lowered the treble a few points on the A/V receiver for that source and now it sounds beautiful :)

#20 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:12 AM

My first post yay!

I just had direct hooked up at my apartment yesterday and love it beyond words. I too noticed this issue on my HR24-200 once the installer left. Currently using a Sony A/V 7.1 receiver and have the HR24, a PS3 and a WDTV Live Hub all hooked up via HDMI. The PS3 and WDTV didn't show the same symptoms, so I went in and switched Dolby Digital off (as was suggested above). Lowered the treble a few points on the A/V receiver for that source and now it sounds beautiful :)


A few yearsssss ago we had a "Sssssibilance" thread. We had a lot of fun with that. Don't remember what it wasssss all about, but if you ssssssearch for it, you may find help there. Persssssonlally, I've never has a sssssibilance problem with my 24-200ssssss, both gone now, but the sssssound was perfect running thru one of my ssssssound sssssystems.

To quote Harsh, "My precioussssssss."

Rich

#21 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:46 PM

I am a fringe high-end audiophile cursed with really sensitive ears. Let's not stoop to the cheap shots and focus instead on solving an issue.

I have a new HR24-200 with a severe sibilance issue. Connecting the HR24-200 to the Samsung 650 series TV via a BetterCables HDMI cable...Has anyone else noticed this extreme exaggeration of SSSSSS sounds regardless of channel from the HR24-200? If so, what did you do to eliminate it?

First, you can assume that anyone who questions your definition of yourself (fringe high-end, sensitive ears) based on what equipment you own has deeper issues and displays their own ignorance by making such a tenuous connection (IOW, consider the source). If it sounds right to you, then it's right for you, period (ignore them). Also, we can only assume that you are indeed such a person. If you were not such a person, there certainly would be a low probability of you merely thinking you were such a person. Rest assured, Phil, the rest of us are with you; we'll begin by not questioning your premise.

I will say this; your ears are not so sensitive or golden that you are imagining sibilance or perceiving it where the rest of us just don't. You do have a real sibilance issue here. That you may have sensitive golden ears is really beside the point; it just makes the fact that there really is sibilance that much more annoying for you, likely.

Sibilance. There are really two definitions; one would be an unusually higher frequency peak in the "s" and "z" consonant range of human speech, compared to the rest of the band. The other is actual distortion at that frequency that sounds very similar, because there is a lot of aggregate energy from the distortion that manifests directly at that same frequency. Most electronic sibilance is of the second type (dropped mics can do this), but it sounds like what you are experiencing is of the first type. So it might aid you, and you have the ears for it, to listen closely to see if there is actual distortion there, or just an abrupt level change there.

Equalization is at best a workaround. It is best to fix the issue at the source. You would also need a 32-band EQ to be able to notch that frequency effectively (and you can't EQ actual distortion, only minimize it). a 12-band or less will distort the response too much for "golden ears". I own a 32, but good luck finding something that can be used in the digital domain or for 5.1. I don't think EQ is your anwer.

The other thing is the nature of digital audio. Once digitized, and assuming all parts are working properly, digital audio can't possibly become distorted without performing math on it; it is completely represented by binary coefficients, and they don't change unless we change them on purpose. Of course if you send digital audio where 0 dBFS is calibrated in the target system at one level into a destination system where it is calibrated at a different level (and that is technically a change in the math), distortion can occur.

But that does not seem to be the problem here either.

Sibilance or any other distortion in properly designed and working digital audio is rare, indeed; that is usually an analog issue (or issssssue, as you are unfortunately used to hearing it. Sorry, couldn't resist). But the critical thing there is "properly...working"; I suspect things are not working as they should, most likely in the DVR, and when things are not working properly, all bets are off and all of "what should be" regarding digital audio is completely out the window.

Audio arrives in your DVR (for HD sources) typically as AC3. It is then decompressed back to PCM for HDMI, I think, and DAC'ed for analog out. If the analog is good, that might point to the AC3 decoding in the DVR as the problem, or not. If both are bad, that points to either a problem in the DVR or the AVR (you could try the HDMI direct into a TV to eliminate the AVR), with that problem most likely close to the DAC or decoder (it may even be the same chip). That all has to work right for things to sound right, and there really isn't much more that could possibly go wrong.

So, the smart money here is on a defective HR24. There is a small possibility of simple idiosyncratic incompatibility between the DVR and AVR, but again, those would be the longer odds.

Were it me, and without more info, I would have the DVR exchanged.
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#22 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:45 PM

Looks like his golden ears become adapted to the hissing and he is satisfied to that level when our mumbling is not interesting to him anymore.

#23 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:45 AM

My first post yay!

I just had direct hooked up at my apartment yesterday and love it beyond words. I too noticed this issue on my HR24-200 once the installer left. Currently using a Sony A/V 7.1 receiver and have the HR24, a PS3 and a WDTV Live Hub all hooked up via HDMI. The PS3 and WDTV didn't show the same symptoms, so I went in and switched Dolby Digital off (as was suggested above). Lowered the treble a few points on the A/V receiver for that source and now it sounds beautiful :)


What kind of TV do you have, a Sony or a Samsung? You shouldn't have to switch off DD to get the sound corrected.

Rich

#24 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:52 AM

Looks like his golden ears become adapted to the hissing and he is satisfied to that level when our mumbling is not interesting to him anymore.


I love it when ssssomeone sssstartssss a thread and jusssst sssstopssss possssting.

Seriously, I find this behavior a bit strange.

Rich

#25 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:58 AM

i everyone
doing this from my phone so ill be brief

sibilance is still there and i have tried many things but not turning off dolby.

o answer equip qs, preempt= dared tube analog in only
amp=Macintosh 2100 solid state
speakers=Bozak 302a completely redesigned (isobaric workers outward mid&sweet&new supertweet box) with drastically altered network
power conditioner
a lot of hand tweaking in everything

i too believe the issue is the dvr but have no optical in to test idea
feeding analog to the preempt yielded no improvement

still hoping to find a schematic for the dvr and start hacking
anyone have a schematic ?




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